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So, in summary - Palmer's report says Israel can't/won't explain the circumstances where 9 unarmed activists were shot - some in the back - multiple times and at close range.

Normal people would condemn these killings. Fanbois choose to invent reasons to excuse the crime.

Extremists condoning killing. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique

Red Chief wrote:Do you mean that IDF punnised unarmed people for their "words"?

No, I donot think so. If their intent was to punish, they wouldn't go in with paintball guns the first time. It is to show however were those Flotilla people came from. Singing religious songs referring to the slaughtering of jews by Muhammed and referring to Auschwitz. But what is more important they provoked the IDF with a violent attempt to break a legal naval brockade.

Flying Dutchman wrote: But what is more important they provoked the IDF with a violent attempt to break a legal naval brockade.

Your position is rather weak FD. Who provoked whom is only your or my opinion, religious chanting is only words, but dead bodies under white cloth are real.

Red Chief wrote:Your position is rather weak FD.

Its the position of the report. That position is that the IDF was provoked and acted in self defense after IDF soldiers were held captive and shot at, after which it used excessive force.

Flying Dutchman wrote:No, I donot think so. If their intent was to punish, they wouldn't go in with paintball guns the first time. It is to show however were those Flotilla people came from. Singing religious songs referring to the slaughtering of jews by Muhammed and referring to Auschwitz. But what is more important they provoked the IDF with a violent attempt to break a legal naval brockade.

shafique wrote:Fanbois choose to invent reasons to excuse the crime.

Spot on. I think if the IDF came in and bombarded FD's house to a rubble he would be still spinning. Er....not actually my house came in the way of the missle and anyways its my fault, I was thinking something nasty about Israel so I totally deserve it !

Flying Dutchman wrote: shot at

Stop. Where is it in the report? Citation please.

Red Chief wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote: shot at

Stop. Where is it in the report? Citation please.

Firearms were taken from IDF personnel and passengers disabled at least one by removing the ammunition from it. Two soldiers received gunshot wounds. There is some reason to believe that they may have been shot by passengers, although the Panel is not able to conclusively establish how the gunshot wounds were caused. Nevertheless, seven other soldiers were wounded by passengers, some seriously

Not conslusive, but that the soldiers were shot by passengers makes much more sense to me than the weird conspiracy theory of Berrin.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

Red Chief wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote: shot at

Stop. Where is it in the report? Citation please.

Firearms were taken from IDF personnel and passengers disabled at least one by removing the ammunition from it. Two soldiers received gunshot wounds. There is some reason to believe that they may have been shot by passengers, although the Panel is not able to conclusively establish how the gunshot wounds were caused. Nevertheless, seven other soldiers were wounded by passengers, some seriously

Not conslusive, but that the soldiers were shot by passengers makes much more sense to me than the weird conspiracy theory of Berrin.

It's only your opinion again. I think that it was friendly fire from helicopters. Why might I think that?

No firearms were found on the Mavi Marmara

Moreover where the report said that the soldies had received gunshot wounds before their comrades used EXCESIVE force.

How about 9 DEAD bodies? Do you think that they were shot down by passengers as well?

So no one disputes the Israeli narrative that the Israeli commandos used their sidearms after the activists were the first to fire live rounds?

LOL - RC 1, fanbois 0 (in reading and comprehension skills).

eh - what part of 'No firearms were found on Mavi Marmara' confused you - and why are you bleating on about a silly propaganda story about the unarmed civilians firing first? Try and stick to facts for a change.

Imagining that people agree with the laughable Israeli spin that you are lapping up is funny and sad at the same time. Israeli spin is not reality. Forensic evidence and 9 dead bodies are.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:So no one disputes the Israeli narrative that the Israeli commandos used their sidearms after the activists were the first to fire live rounds?

Err..comprehension failure I presume ? Everyone disputes the Israeli narrative, except you and the flying fuc...ahem, I meant dutchman.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

Red Chief wrote:Do you mean that IDF punnised unarmed people for their "words"?

No, I donot think so. If their intent was to punish, they wouldn't go in with paintball guns the first time. It is to show however were those Flotilla people came from. Singing religious songs referring to the slaughtering of jews by Muhammed and referring to Auschwitz. But what is more important they provoked the IDF with a violent attempt to break a legal naval brockade.

I think its your lifetime wish to work as a whore in an Israeli nightclub

FYI, prophet Mohammad's attack on the Jews happened due to their dirty deeds when they insisted on breaking the treaty several times, and even worse when they funded and urged allll surrounding tribes to attack prophet Mohammad in the famous battle of Ahzab which made it impossible to share peace with Jews, not just for the Muslims, but also for the other non-Muslim Arabs around.

MOREOVER there was also the deep grudge that Aws and Khazraj tribes of Medina held against the Jews who were responsible for fuelling civil wars, and their bad business of money interest. Jews were refered as "foxes" for how cunning & dishonest they were, and that was during the PRE-Islamic period. Only shows how extended this common hatred towards the Jews from almost all nations of the world. Such details are even mentioned in the old pre-islamic poetry of Arabian tribes. So before & after Islam, people still hated the Jews for their dirty business

Seems I'm back on track in the PF

desertdudeshj wrote:Everyone disputes the Israeli narrative

The Israeli narrative has been consistent pretty much from the beginning. The protesters on the other hand constantly changed their story, were inconsistent and often their 'stories' appeared false. The Palmer report for the most part supports the Israeli narrative, foremost that the naval blockade is within international law and that it acted in self defense.

Flying Dutchman wrote:The Israeli narrative has been consistent pretty much from the beginning. The protesters on the other hand constantly changed their story, were inconsistent and often their 'stories' appeared false. The Palmer report for the most part supports the Israeli narrative, foremost that the naval blockade is within international law and that it acted in self defense.

I agree that the report is pro-Israeli. It's not a business of Mr. Palmer to decide what is within international law as there has been no UN resolution about that.

Anyway even this respectable man cannot bury dead bodies.

Unarmed civilians are shot in the back, multiple times, and religious extremists and fanbois make excuses.

Sym - you'll only confuse the fanbois with historical facts. Note FD was trying pathetically to blame the victims, again.

Cheers,
Shafique

Red Chief wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:It's not a business of Mr. Palmer to decide what is within international law as there has been no UN resolution about that.

Turkey also called the report of the panel null and void after fanatically commenting on it. Turkey has been humiliated and what we see now are some knee-jerking reactions.
Israel should remain its cool though (and be the wisest) and not bringing Cyprus and the Kurdish question into this. Just let them take of some steam.

Erekat of the PA even said the Palmer report violates international law.

FD - you do realise that everyone sees through your tactic of avoiding the killing of the 9 civilians, don't you?

Focusing on Palmer's conclusion that the naval blockade is legal won't change what the report's findings on the killing of the 9 were - i.e. that Israel hasn't been able to explain to Palmer's satisfaction why they were killed in that way.

I love the way you insist on even taking snippets of what RC and others post - are you trained to avoid the main points in any report/post?

Cheers,
Shafique

^The only plausible reason for your comments I can think of is that your foe list must be still malfunctioning. I have addressed the dead of the 9 passenger multiple times. The report says Israel acted in self defense with excessive force. Self defense is not an act of aggression. Since the report mentions that it can not exactly establish how the people were killed, but calling it excessive at the same time, is a bit of a contraction and they obviously gave the Turkish story the benefit of the doubt here. For the rest its a humiliation for Turkey, hence their knee-jerking reactions.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

Red Chief wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:It's not a business of Mr. Palmer to decide what is within international law as there has been no UN resolution about that.

Turkey also called the report of the panel null and void after fanatically commenting on it. Turkey has been humiliated and what we see now are some knee-jerking reactions.
Israel should remain its cool though (and be the wisest) and not bringing Cyprus and the Kurdish question into this. Just let them take of some steam.

Erekat of the PA even said the Palmer report violates international law.

FD, Mr. Palmer was the head of the panel he was an experienced former prime minister of NZ as well is an expert in international maritime law.

The 105-page report said the killing of eight Turkish activists and an American was "unacceptable." this part is “indisputable.”

“Responsible party is Israel and for this reason it must offer an apology and compensate to families of the victims.

The UN report released Friday contradicted an earlier report on the Gaza flotilla incident which found that Israeli forces violated international law when they raided the flotilla. That report was prepared in September by three human rights experts appointed by the UN's top human rights body.

Turkey did not sign the report because Turkey does not accept the legitimacy of the Gaza blockade, adding that another UN body, UN Geneva Human Rights Council Fact-Finding Mission confirms that the blockade is illegal.

Along with accepting the report, the reason why Israel did not sign the report is its objection to the way the report describes the killings.

Palmer commission was established by the UN General Assembly, Secretary General and the members of the Security Council, according to the committee’s terms of reference and work guidelines, the committee authorizes Palmer and Uribe to write the report if there is no consensus or unanimity in the committe. this is the reason why the report was published although Israel and Turkey did not sign it due to various reasons. “In practice, the report becomes the report of Palmer and Uribe”
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-255702- ... rsial.html

So now, what we will see from now on is that Turkey will minimize its relations to its lowest level, both on political and economic front, .. This will force the present government of Israel to resign soon.. World policy will design Israel and appoint a new cabinet that will move forward with Arab spring, only than Israel will apologies n compensate the losses..This is how ME peace process will move forward I guess... All we see and witness currently are clear diplomatic tactics to end Military/dictatorial state administration in ME. Remember the 'ol cold war ended 20 yrs ago and democracy took phase to spread from Eastern Europe towards ME and than will move on the Caucasus etc. Basically after a century, the old policies become outdated as eastern part of the world is rising fast, so the world is going through a new phase/order for political re engineering at the moment..

Berrin wrote:“Responsible party is Israel and for this reason it must offer an apology and compensate to families of the victims.

Please provide a reference for this. I searched for the word "apology" in the report and had zero hits.

FD - click on the link Berrin provided, the quote is from Sanberk and seems to have been cut off when he pasted it across.

As for your conclusion in reading the report.. I have to admire your Chutzpah. Pretending that you'd addressed the shooting of the civilians in the back and claiming the report says they were shot in self defense is one of your greatest twists yet.

What the report actually says:

"No satisfactory explanation has been provided to the panel by Israel for any of the nine deaths. Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel," it said.

The report goes on to criticise Israel for the "significant mistreatment of passengers" after they were taken off the ships including physical abuse, harassment, intimidation and unjustified confiscation of property.

Self defence argument does not work for either the mistreatment on-shore or the shooting in the back, multiple times.

You can't spin this one away or imagine you've addressed it. Sorry. Try harder next time.

At the end of the day, you're making excuses for these killings - and the excuses aren't in the report.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:FD - click on the link Berrin provided, the quote is from Sanberk and seems to have been cut off when he pasted it across.

So, its not from the Palmer report.

shafique wrote:At the end of the day, you're making excuses for these killings - and the excuses aren't in the report.

Not making any excuses, the report is quite clear:

the IDF personnel involved in the operation needed to take action for their own protection and that of the other soldiers.

Shafique, I believe that the discussion is over. Everybody expressed his/her opinion. Two punks swear like a sailor as usual.

I cannot blame FD in supporting every single action or word of people, who don't prononce consonant "r" properly. It's the same as blaming you in supporting any single action of Muzlims.

symmetric wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:

Red Chief wrote:Do you mean that IDF punnised unarmed people for their "words"?

No, I donot think so. If their intent was to punish, they wouldn't go in with paintball guns the first time. It is to show however were those Flotilla people came from. Singing religious songs referring to the slaughtering of jews by Muhammed and referring to Auschwitz. But what is more important they provoked the IDF with a violent attempt to break a legal naval brockade.

I think its your lifetime wish to work as a whore in an Israeli nightclub

FYI, prophet Mohammad's attack on the Jews happened due to their dirty deeds when they insisted on breaking the treaty several times, and even worse when they funded and urged allll surrounding tribes to attack prophet Mohammad in the famous battle of Ahzab which made it impossible to share peace with Jews, not just for the Muslims, but also for the other non-Muslim Arabs around.

MOREOVER there was also the deep grudge that Aws and Khazraj tribes of Medina held against the Jews who were responsible for fuelling civil wars, and their bad business of money interest. Jews were refered as "foxes" for how cunning & dishonest they were, and that was during the PRE-Islamic period. Only shows how extended this common hatred towards the Jews from almost all nations of the world. Such details are even mentioned in the old pre-islamic poetry of Arabian tribes. So before & after Islam, people still hated the Jews for their dirty business

Seems I'm back on track in the PF

As RC would say, words vs dead bodies.

eh - what part of 'No firearms were found on Mavi Marmara' confused you - and why are you bleating on about a silly propaganda story about the unarmed civilians firing first? Try and stick to facts for a change.

What part of two Israeli soldiers were shot confused you?

Red Chief wrote:Shafique, I believe that the discussion is over. Everybody expressed his/her opinion. Two punks swear like a sailor as usual.

I too have noticed that!

Red Chief wrote:I cannot blame FD in supporting every single action or word of people, who don't prononce consonant "r" properly. It's the same as blaming you in supporting any single action of Muzlims.

Let me know the next time I support the killings carried out by Muslims in the way the 'two punks' are supporting the killings of the 8 Turkish and 1 American civilians.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:

Berrin wrote:“Responsible party is Israel and for this reason it must offer an apology and compensate to families of the victims.

Please provide a reference for this. I searched for the word "apology" in the report and had zero hits.

Have you lost all comprehension skills or just being your usual pedantic self or you've just don't know the meaning of the word paraphrasing ? Let me quote for you directly from your beloved report so that the fanboi part of your brain which blacks out such things might actually see it for a change

Page 6, bottom of the page under Rapprochement

An appropriate statement of regret should be made by Israel in respect of the incident in light of its consequences.

Israel should offer payment for the benefit of the deceased and injured victims and their families, to be administered by the two governments through a joint trust fund of a sufficient amount to be decided by them

And on a another note I don't see how the report and Israel can call this blockade legal ? Although it is clearly illegal under the geneva convention and this Palmer dude is suppose to be some kind of expert on international law ?

According to international law the boarding of the ship was illeagal, infact it was nothing short of declaration of war against Turkey. And Turkey being a member of NATO should have had retaliatory bombings from NATO aircraft with in the hour agains the Israeli Navy. But ofcourse in the real world that would never happen.

Maybe under some very vague law ? ( Which by the way there is no refernce to in the report ) But if the same rules apply then Hamas if it was capable of should be able to setup a blockade of its own and that itself should be Iegal under the same parameters as the Israeli blockade, right ? I can see the Israeli fanbois going into a shitstorm overdrive if that actually happened.

-- Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:20 pm --

event horizon wrote:What part of two Israeli soldiers were shot confused you?

And what part of 9 civillians getting executed by the IDF confuse you and FD ?

Lets see if Israel offers and appology and compensation for that. I wouldn't be holding my breath if I were you

Oh dear, the report clearly states that Israel should apologise : 'an appropriate statement of regret' and should 'offer payment' to the families of those killed. I guess that Palmer didn't consider Netanyahu's 'regret of the loss of life' at the time to be appropriate enough (no reasonable person at the time did either).

I think you need to apologise to Berrin FD.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: Let me know the next time I support the killings carried out by Muslims in the way the 'two punks' are supporting the killings of the 8 Turkish and 1 American civilians.

Probably we recognized different people as punks. I for one respect FD for his coherent discussion even though I have never called Israeli commandos "kikes".

symmetric wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:

Red Chief wrote:Do you mean that IDF punnised unarmed people for their "words"?

No, I donot think so. If their intent was to punish, they wouldn't go in with paintball guns the first time. It is to show however were those Flotilla people came from. Singing religious songs referring to the slaughtering of jews by Muhammed and referring to Auschwitz. But what is more important they provoked the IDF with a violent attempt to break a legal naval brockade.

I think its your lifetime wish to work as a whore in an Israeli nightclub

FYI, prophet Mohammad's attack on the Jews happened due to their dirty deeds when they insisted on breaking the treaty several times, and even worse when they funded and urged allll surrounding tribes to attack prophet Mohammad in the famous battle of Ahzab which made it impossible to share peace with Jews, not just for the Muslims, but also for the other non-Muslim Arabs around.

MOREOVER there was also the deep grudge that Aws and Khazraj tribes of Medina held against the Jews who were responsible for fuelling civil wars, and their bad business of money interest. Jews were refered as "foxes" for how cunning & dishonest they were, and that was during the PRE-Islamic period. Only shows how extended this common hatred towards the Jews from almost all nations of the world. Such details are even mentioned in the old pre-islamic poetry of Arabian tribes. So before & after Islam, people still hated the Jews for their dirty business

Seems I'm back on track in the PF

seems like absolute hatred and revenge with bigotry is inherent in them genetically..
If something serves their interests they will accept, if not they will attempt to destroy and exterminate..
Not only they attempted to kill prophets of God but even today continue to disdain anybody and anything if works against them and that includes scientists,diplomats, bureaucrats,ministers and also representatives of UN as well..

Remember how israelies slaughtered UN's mediating representative Folke Bernadotte with six bullets in Jerusalem back in 1948 as UN officially accepted his report over the status of Jerusalem and it's future. 35 years later israel shamelessly appointed his murderer Yitzhak Shamir as Prime Minister to Israel..That's how dis.gusting they can become.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke_Bernadotte
This guy they murdered actually was a savior of thousands of jews during second world war, he acted on behalf of Swedish redcross and shuttled between Germany and Sweden saving the life's of thousands from gas chambers..It's his this peaceful mind and actions that gave him the status he deserved and awarded in UN as peace envoy.
Today the situation is no different Israelies behave the same brutal way and their cabinet is inclusive of previously criminal ministers..

And what part of 9 civillians getting executed by the IDF confuse you and FD ?

Let's go back to my previous question: Do we all agree that the Israelis used lethal force only *after* the activists used live fire against the commandos?

It would appear that you're at least not referring to armed combatants as unarmed.