Palestine - Push For Independence

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 22, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Nope, I'm happy to condemn terrorist actions taken by Hezbollah, Hamas, IDF etc - I even made the point that the rockets were actually counter productive.


So, don't single out Israel in this conflict. That's just plain hypocricy.


You seem to be confusing me with someone else.

This thread was about the actions of Palestinian diplomats trying to peacefully get to a negotiated settlement of the process.

I've just had to patiently explain why it is Israel that is in violation of International Law in East Jerusalem and also in the West Bank.


Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:For example, I don't agree with Hamas holding one Israeli soldier as hostage just because Israel holds thousands of Palestinians hostage (in 'administrative detention') - but that is because I am against hostage taking on principle.


Another example of Hamas breaking international law...one of many! Do you agree Hamas is breaking international law with the kidnapping of Shalit?


Yes.

Kidnapping is illegal. Holding people hostage is illegal. Hamas is in violation of International Law - as well as doing something I don't approve of. I'm sure Hamas may argue that Shalit is a prisoner of war or an 'enemy combatant' - but to me he is a hostage, purely because they want to exchange him for hundreds of Palestinians being similarly held hostage by Israel.

See - when denouncing injustices, one shouldn't look at the perpetrator's religion.

Israel holding thousands hostage is also a crime in my eyes - and we'll see how many they will release in exchange for Shalit.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:So, now we agree that Israel should not be above the law - I guess we are close to recognising the fact that Israel is breaking international law by annexing East Jerusalem and imposing discriminatory rules on the non-Jewish inhabitants (particularly when it comes to land/housing)


Yes, Israel treats non-Israeli's different than Israeli's, nothing special about that.


The problem is that they are doing this in occupied East Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank - and discriminating against the residents who happen to not to be citizens of the occupying power.

Thus we arrive back at the same old fact again - Israel is breaking the law in the occupied areas it controls when it discriminates against the residents of these areas on the basis of their citizenship (these guys are NOT foreigners in the land that is being occupied, but the occupied population who all have rights under International Law).

Anyway - I guess we must be close to agreement. Hamas has broken International Law by taking one hostage, Israel has broken International Laws by depriving residents of occupied land of their basic rights of land ownership and use (as explicitly stated in resolution 478 in respect of East Jerusalem, for example).

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 22, 2009
Just to re-iterate, I'm with B'tselem on the Shalit issue:

The Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem today (25.06.09) repeats its demand that Hamas release Gilad Shalit immediately. The circumstances of Shalit’s capture three years ago and the behavior of his captors clearly indicate that he is legally a hostage. Hostage taking is absolutely prohibited under international humanitarian law, and is defined as a grave breach of the Geneva Convention.

The leadership of Hamas is obligated to release Shalit immediately and unconditionally. Until he is released, those holding him must grant him humane treatment, allow him to be in contact with his family and allow representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit him.

The denial of Shalit’s right to these visits constitutes a blatant violation of international law, and casts doubt over claims that Shalit’s wellbeing has been maintained.


B'tselem also denounces the hostages held by Israel, but quite rightly, does not link the two. Israel must similarly stop violating international law on kidnapping and hostage taking:


B'Tselem urges the Israeli government to immediately release all administrative detainees or bring them to trial for any criminal offenses they are suspected of having committed. B'Tselem also calls upon the government to direct the military commanders to amend the military orders applying to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip pursuant to which administrative detention is made, so that it conforms to international legal standards

http://www.btselem.org/English/Administ ... Detention/

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 22, 2009
shafique wrote:Israel is breaking the law in the occupied areas it controls when it discriminates against the residents of these areas on the basis of their citizenship


Discrimination based on nationality...you must be very confused.
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 22, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Israel is breaking the law in the occupied areas it controls when it discriminates against the residents of these areas on the basis of their citizenship


Discrimination based on nationality...you must be very confused.


Perhaps this is what confused me:
Flying Dutchman wrote:Yes, Israel treats non-Israeli's different than Israeli's, nothing special about that.


We now seem to agree that Israel should abide by international law - and International law is pretty clear that Israel should not discriminate against the residents of occupied territory in favour of Israeli citizens.

I'm glad we are seeing eye-to-eye on this now.

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 22, 2009
shafique wrote:We now seem to agree that Israel should abide by international law - and International law is pretty clear that Israel should not discriminate against the residents of occupied territory in favour of Israeli citizens.


Israel offers citizenship to Arabs in East-Jerusalem and it is accused of discrimination. Israel doesn't offer citizenship to Arabs in the Westbank and it is still accused of discrimination. Most residents of the Westbank are Jordanian. However, Jordan is in the process of stripping them from their citizenship one by one.
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 22, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:Israel offers citizenship to Arabs in East-Jerusalem and it is accused of discrimination.


Not quite. Israel is guilty of discriminating against those who choose not to take the citizenship of the occupying power. As I said, this is illegal under international law - UN resolution 478 states this explicitly.

If Jordan is also breaking international law, then it too needs to stop - two wrongs do not make a right.

We seem to agree that there is discrimination going on. You however seem to be blaming those who are being discriminated against for not taking up Israeli citizenship. International Law seems to be on the side of the Palestinians who are resisting legitimizing the illegal annexation.

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 22, 2009
I thought it is the Israeli-Arab conflict. Not the Jewish-Muslim conflict.

That's right it isn't Israeli-christian conflict as they all unite, but the Israeli-Muslim conflict since palestinian arabs are the muslims themselves..You now made me understood why the new state established called Israel but not Palestine.

Code: Select all
Oh, Israel let them live longer than neighboring countries, so they can kill them? Never heard that one before. You are a prime example of somebody who grew up in an environment of hate and envy and you just cannot cope with it. You are a very sick person.


Yeah it doesn't escape my notice that you couldn't find an excuse to counterstrike against babies been killed on the beaches and seaside towns of Israel..

You are a very very sick person indeed.. not me, anyone who defends the rights of people being killed with excessive power, is a just person in my book,No one invited a jewish state called Israel,over the lands of locals. Anyone who attempts to comuflage attrocities with doomed excuses, like yourself, are the ones driven by hatred..hatred towards muslims, muslim races and nations...Your remarks over Arabs does not escape my attention..
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 22, 2009
shafique wrote:Not quite. Israel is guilty of discriminating against those who choose not to take the citizenship of the occupying power. As I said, this is illegal under international law - UN resolution 478 states this explicitly.


Where in the non-binding resulotion does it clearly state that Israel discriminates?
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 22, 2009
Berrin wrote:That's right it isn't Israeli-christian conflict as they all unite, but the Israeli-Muslim conflict since palestinian arabs are the muslims themselves..


I think you have to discuss this with Shafique, as he clearly will disagree with you.

Berrin wrote:Your remarks over Arabs does not escape my attention..


Which remarks are you talking about exactly?
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 23, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Not quite. Israel is guilty of discriminating against those who choose not to take the citizenship of the occupying power. As I said, this is illegal under international law - UN resolution 478 states this explicitly.


Where in the non-binding resulotion does it clearly state that Israel discriminates?


478 clearly states that the annexation of East Jerusalem is illegal - it is a matter of law.

You have admitted Israel discriminates in East Jerusalem against those who refuse to take up the citizenship of the occupying power - ergo the discrimination is illegal. (In any case, International law is pretty clear that an occupying power is not allowed to deprive an existing community of land rights - which is what you admit Israel is doing to those who maintain that they are not Israelis because under International Law, East Jerusalem is not part of Israel).

Semantics aside, we now seem to have agreed that Israel is indeed in violation of International Law in East Jerusalem - due to it's annexation and subsequent discrimination against those East Jerusalem residents who are abiding by International law and refusing to concede that East Jerusalem is part of Israel.

The law is clear. Everything else seems to be excuses to justify Israel's criminal (a legal term) actions.

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 23, 2009
shafique wrote:478 clearly states that the annexation of East Jerusalem is illegal - it is a matter of law.


Okay, so it doesn't say Israel is discriminating. It is a matter of law that 478 is non-binding.

shafique wrote:You have admitted Israel discriminates in East Jerusalem against those who refuse to take up the citizenship of the occupying power


No, I didn't.
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 23, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote: It is a matter of law that 478 is non-binding.


Which law is that FD?

478 actually says that Israel is violating International Law.

What Law nullifies this statement of legal fact? (I wasn't aware that the fact that the UN Security Council is not bound by this legal ruling is a 'matter of law')


Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:You have admitted Israel discriminates in East Jerusalem against those who refuse to take up the citizenship of the occupying power


No, I didn't.


Well, this is what you wrote:
Flying Dutchman wrote:Yes, Israel treats non-Israeli's different than Israeli's, nothing special about that.


As we have been talking about the discrimination in East Jerusalem - my statement stands. Or are you saying Israel isn't treating the occupied people in East Jerusalem differently from those who have chosen Israeli citizenship and those colonialists who have moved there?

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 23, 2009
Shafique still cannot grasp the difference between nationality and ethnicity.
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 23, 2009
The question was quite simple, I thought

shafique wrote:478 actually says that Israel is violating International Law.

What Law nullifies this statement of legal fact? (I wasn't aware that the fact that the UN Security Council is not bound by this legal ruling is a 'matter of law')


I'm not sure what Israel breaking international law has to do with knowing the difference between nationality and ethnicity? Perhaps you think it is ok to discriminate against East Jerusalem residents who don't take up the citizenship of the occupying power? If so, aren't you condoning the breaking of international law?

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 23, 2009
shafique wrote:I'm not sure what Israel breaking international law has to do with knowing the difference between nationality and ethnicity?


Really? Treating different nationalities different isn't discrimination and isn't breaking international law.
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 23, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:I'm not sure what Israel breaking international law has to do with knowing the difference between nationality and ethnicity?


Really? Treating different nationalities different isn't discrimination and isn't breaking international law.


It is if it is being done in Occupied territory - again, I refer you to UN resolution 478 which states as a matter of Law that East Jerusalem is not part of Israel, and that Israel is breaking international law by acting as if it can legitimately discriminate against the legal residents of East Jerusalem.

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 23, 2009
shafique wrote:It is if it is being done in Occupied territory - again, I refer you to UN resolution 478 which states as a matter of Law that East Jerusalem is not part of Israel, and that Israel is breaking international law by acting as if it can legitimately discriminate against the legal residents of East Jerusalem.


I have asked you before, but you couldn't deliver. Where does it state that Israel is discriminating in the non-binding 478?

Like East-Jerusalem and the Westbank, the final status and borders need to be negotiated and Israel is by no means obligated to retreat to the 1967 armistice lines. Arab countries wanted war not peace, when Israel wanted peace. You cannot start an agrresive war after aggresive war and expect to dictate the terms of a peace agreement as a looser of aggresive war.
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 24, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:It is if it is being done in Occupied territory - again, I refer you to UN resolution 478 which states as a matter of Law that East Jerusalem is not part of Israel, and that Israel is breaking international law by acting as if it can legitimately discriminate against the legal residents of East Jerusalem.


I have asked you before, but you couldn't deliver. Where does it state that Israel is discriminating in the non-binding 478?


The discrimination in East Jerusalem is a fact - you've admitted that Israel is indeed discriminating against non-Israeli citizens who legally reside in Occupied East Jerusalem. You seem to think this discrimination is ok, but 478 makes it clear that Israel is acting illegally - because 478 unambiguously states that the treatment of East Jerusalem as Israeli soil is illegal under international law:
United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 declared Israel's 1980 Jerusalem Law null and void and required that it be rescinded forthwith while affirming that it was a violation of international law. This resolution called upon member states to withdraw their diplomatic missions from the city. The law declared Jerusalem to be Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital.

The vote on the resolution, which took place on August 20, 1980, was passed 14-0, with the United States abstaining.


You are the one that has argued that the discrimination based on citizenship is ok - but it isn't ok if it is carried out in land that does not belong to Israel.

478 doesn't say that Israel is not in violation of the law because it hopes one day to negotiate to keep the land - it says clearly that East Jerusalem is not part of Israel, and ergo the discrimination (which we agree takes place) is illegal.

Really quite simple.

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 24, 2009
shafique wrote:The discrimination in East Jerusalem is a fact - you've admitted that Israel is indeed discriminating against non-Israeli citizens who legally reside in Occupied East Jerusalem. You seem to think this discrimination is ok, but 478 makes it clear that Israel is acting illegally


Yes, I have no problem at all with countries treating its own citizens different than non-citizens, duh. 478 is non-binding.

shafique wrote:You are the one that has argued that the discrimination based on citizenship is ok


Thats no discrimination. You must be out of arguments for a long time already with these non-sense arguments and non-binding rulings.
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 24, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:Yes, I have no problem at all with countries treating its own citizens different than non-citizens, duh. 478 is non-binding.


478 states that Israel is breaking international law - fact (which you haven't/can't dispute).

Therefore the discrimination in East Jerusalem that you have 'no problem' with, is illegal. Legal fact.

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 24, 2009
shafique wrote:478 states that Israel is breaking international law - fact (which you haven't/can't dispute).


And you cannot dispute it is non-binding, so it doesn't have nay relevance in the real world. I actually agree for a large part with the former president of the ICJ, Schwebel. But I realize at the same time that it is just an opinion, comparable with other rulings of the ICJ:

The Palestinians never had sovereignty over the West Bank nor east Jerusalem and Justice Schwebel
concluded that since Jordan, the prior holder of these territories had seized that territory unlawfully in 1948,
Israel which subsequently took that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense in 1967, has better title to it.
Jordan's illegal annexation of the West bank and east Jerusalem in 1948 was recognized only by Britain and Pakistan and
Jordan now makes no claim to it..

In terms of international law, between 1948 and 1967 this territory was terra nullius,
or "land belonging to no one" over which sovereignty may be acquired through occupation.

It is highly relevant that the Oslo Accords do not require any freeze of building activity
and even the road map which was never formally ratified, speaks only of dismantling "outposts" erected since March 2001,
a far cry from Gilo, that has been a residential suburb of Jerusalem since 1971.


Do you agree that "the armistice agreements of 1949 expressly preserved the territorial claims of all parties and did not purport to establish definitive boundaries between them"?

shafique wrote:Therefore the discrimination in East Jerusalem that you have 'no problem' with


Difference in law based on nationality is not discrimination. Calling it discrimination is just beyond ridiculous.
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 25, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:478 states that Israel is breaking international law - fact (which you haven't/can't dispute).


And you cannot dispute it is non-binding, so it doesn't have nay relevance in the real world.


The only relevance it has is that it falsifies Israel (and her supporters') pleas that it is not breaking the law in East Jerusalem.

478 says Israel is breaking the law, and you say it doesn't have any relevance.

So, on the point - is Israel breaking international law by annexing East Jerusalem - the law is unambiguous. Yes, Israel is breaking the law.


Flying Dutchman wrote:Do you agree that "the armistice agreements of 1949 expressly preserved the territorial claims of all parties and did not purport to establish definitive boundaries between them"?


I totally agree that land beyond the 1947 borders drawn up by the UN do not constitute the country of Israel. The land Israel captured in 1948 and was allowed to keep, did become part of Israel. The land beyond the 1948/9 armistice lines are categorically not Israeli land, as clarified and verified by UN and International Court rulings.

Specifically, East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza are all occupied territories beyond the internationally ackwnowledged borders referred to in every peace agreement proposed to Israel.


Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Therefore the discrimination in East Jerusalem that you have 'no problem' with


Difference in law based on nationality is not discrimination. Calling it discrimination is just beyond ridiculous.


So now you are calling the illegal discrimination 'ridiculous' because it targetted at the occupied people who do not choose to take on the nationality of the occupier?

Interesting.

So the discrimination is ok, in your book. That explains a lot.

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 28, 2009
shafique wrote:I totally agree that land beyond the 1947 borders drawn up by the UN do not constitute the country of Israel. The land Israel captured in 1948 and was allowed to keep, did become part of Israel./quote]

Lets not forgot Israel captured this land after Arab aggression, trying to annihilate Israel. I see you are following the phased plan for the destruction of Israel. First Israel should retreat to the 1967 armictice lines and then accept the partition plan. That is a choice for war not peace.

shafique wrote:The land beyond the 1948/9 armistice lines are categorically not Israeli land, as clarified and verified by UN and International Court rulings.


I agree, the final status should be negiotated as part of a peace deal. At the moment the PA doesn't want to join the negotiation table. Abbas overplayed his hand and is captive now of his own words. Anyways, a Pali state is not something to look forward to. Expect gangsta and thug rule.

And yes differentiation based on nationality is very normal. Death penalties based on ethinicy is not, like a death penalty for selling land to jews.
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 29, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:I totally agree that land beyond the 1947 borders drawn up by the UN do not constitute the country of Israel. The land Israel captured in 1948 and was allowed to keep, did become part of Israel./quote]

Lets not forgot Israel captured this land after Arab aggression, trying to annihilate Israel. I see you are following the phased plan for the destruction of Israel. First Israel should retreat to the 1967 armictice lines and then accept the partition plan. That is a choice for war not peace.

shafique wrote:The land beyond the 1948/9 armistice lines are categorically not Israeli land, as clarified and verified by UN and International Court rulings.


I agree, the final status should be negiotated as part of a peace deal. At the moment the PA doesn't want to join the negotiation table. Abbas overplayed his hand and is captive now of his own words. Anyways, a Pali state is not something to look forward to. Expect gangsta and thug rule.

And yes differentiation based on nationality is very normal. Death penalties based on ethinicy is not, like a death penalty for selling land to jews.


I see you are mixing beliefs with legal facts.

Let's try and separate out the two, shall we.

1. Is Israel breaking international law by treating East Jerusalem as part of Israel? Categorically, yes.
2. Is it a crime to discriminate by nationality in occupied territory (such as East Jerusalem) - categorically, yes.
3. Is Israel discriminating against non-Israeli citizens in East Jerusalem - FD says yes and that this is 'normal' - however, given 1 and 2, this 'normal' practice for FD is categorically illegal under international law.

Now, FD agreed that 1 is correct - Israel is breaking the law by seeking to annex East Jerusalem, and agrees that Israel should not be above the law.

2 is a point of law - the Geneva conventions etc state what is legal for an occupying power to do - discriminating against the occupied population is illegal. FD has not disputed this point.

3. FD argues that the discrimination that happens is 'normal'.

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 29, 2009
I read today that Israel is planning a further 700 illegal colonial homes in East Jerusalem.

The EU statement is to the point:
The European Union said it was "dismayed" by the announcement.

"Settlements on occupied land are illegal under international law," it said.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8432267.stm

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 29, 2009
Yes, annexing is an unilatral action that is unlawfull I think. Just like an unilateral declaration of an independent Pali state. I am still not sure why Israel should enable Jordanians to lease/buy land within the green line...and what this has to do with discrimination. Non-Israeli Arabs in East Jerusalem can lease/buy land in East Jerusalem, but not in West Jerusalem, which is within the green line. The latter is only possible for Israeli citizens, jews and arabs alike.
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 29, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:Yes, annexing is an unilatral action that is unlawfull I think.


Agreed.

Therefore, the logic stands that any discrimination against non-Israeli residents in occupied East Jerusalem is illegal.

And, as the EU statement clearly states - building homes is against international law.

The fact that the inhabitants of East Jerusalem were offered Jordanian nationality when Jordan annexed the territory is neither here nor there - the crime Israel is committing is the discrimination against the inhabitants of the occupied/ illegally annexed land.

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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 29, 2009
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding, but how is Israel discriminating against East Jerusalemites?
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 29, 2009
Let me just quote the Israeli Human Rights group B'tselem on the issue:
Policy of discrimination in planning, building and land expropriation

The planning policy in East Jerusalem since its annexation in 1967 is affected by political considerations and infected by systematic discrimination against the Palestinians living there. While extensive building and enormous budget allocations have been the rule in Jewish neighborhoods, the Israeli government has choked development and building for the Palestinian population.

In June 1967, Israel annexed 70,500 dunams [4 dunams = 1 acre] of East Jerusalem and the West Bank and incorporated them within Jerusalem’s borders. From this annexed territory, Israel has expropriated about one-third of the annexed territory – 24,000 dunams – most of it privately-owned Arab property. Israel used this expropriated land for residential construction. By the end of 2001, 46,978 housing units had been built for Jews on this land, but not one unit for Palestinians who constitute one-third of the city’s population.

At the same time, Israel choked construction in Palestinian neighborhoods and restricted new construction. Immediately upon annexation of East Jerusalem, and contrary to its actions in the rest of the West Bank, the Jordanian outline plans were nullified, thus creating a planning void that took a long time to fill. In the first decade following annexation, construction was only allowed ad hoc in a few areas in East Jerusalem.
Much land surrounding Palestinian villages and neighborhoods was expropriated to build Jewish neighborhoods, leaving no room for Palestinian construction. The Jerusalem Municipality did not establish outline plans for the Palestinian areas. The few plans that were approved were primarily intended to prevent new construction by declaring broad expanses of land as “green areas,” restricting the building percentages on the lots, and setting narrow borders.

In the early 1980s, the Jerusalem Municipality began to prepare outline plans for all the Palestinian neighborhoods. Most of the plans are complete, and others are in the process of planning and approval. The most conspicuous feature of these outline plans is the vast amount (some 40 percent) of area that is designated as “open landscape areas,” on which building is forbidden. In the plans that were approved prior to the end of 1999, only some 5,100 dunams (constituting 11 percent of the land in East Jerusalem, after the expropriation of 24,000 dunams mentioned above) were available for construction for the Palestinian population. As is the case with the demarcation plans existing in the West Bank, construction is allowed primarily in built-up areas.

The consequences of this policy are evident in Palestinian neighborhoods. For example, at the end of 2002, housing density in Arab neighborhoods was almost twice that of Jewish neighborhoods, 11.9 square meters per person compared to 23.8 square meters per person. The existing situation has forced many Palestinians to build homes without first obtaining a building permit. The Jerusalem Municipality enforces the building laws on Palestinians much more stringently than on the Jewish population, even though the number of violations is much higher in the Jewish neighborhoods.


http://www.btselem.org/english/Jerusale ... Policy.asp
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Re: Palestine - Push for Independence Dec 29, 2009
I see, the critizism that foreign East Jerusalem residents cannot lease land in West Jerusalem vanished. In East Jerusalem thousands of new permits are given to the Arab population, much more than permits to Jews. Illegal buildings are rarely taken care off. Relatively more illegal houses in jewish neighborhoods are evacuated than illegal houses in Arab neighborhoods. I know many want to go back to the good old days from before 1967 when East Jerusalem was judenrein after the Jordanian army killed or expelled all jewish habitants in east jerusalem and the Westbank, others don't agree.
This stands in no comparison to the PA who imposes the death penalty for people selling land to jews. If you are worried about human rights, I would worry much more about Hamas and the PA.
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