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I understand you're not very bright so this sadly needs to explained to you.

If Jews own 6% of the land and Arabs 94%, then there is no publicly owned land in British Mandate Palestine because those percentages add to 100%.

Of couse we know there is publicly owned land, you even acknowledge as such yourself, so Ben Gurion's comment must be understood to mean either one of two things:

1) Ben Gurion's statistic of Arabs owning 94% of the land includes land that is publicly owned and is not actually owned by Arabs

2) Ben Gurion's statistic was only talking about land that is privately owned

Read that page and the preceding pages and we see that the land Aumann is calling public land is actually land that is owned by Palestinian Arabs under the 'miri' category - i.e. indefinite leases where the rent is the obligation to pay taxes - i.e. the land is in fact owned on a freehold basis. This is the same system as in the UK - the ultimate owner is the crown, but you own the freehold.

Sorry, miri belongs to the government.

Your link even says miri is public land.

Leased land is not owned land.

And no, they are not 'indefinite leases' as long as the renters pay taxes.

That's your lie.

Sorry - but can you show me where I interpreted Ben-Gurion's verbatim quote? Can you quote me giving an interpretation?

What is clear (and even FD has acknowledged this) is that the quiz is completely correct in the statement that in 1947 Jewish Palestinians owned 7% (rounding up) of Palestine. Ben Gurion rounded down and said it was 6%.

I refer you to the reference already given in the Government of Palestine's report on land ownership where it explains what the Ottoman system of 'miri' means, and how those holding indefite leases are owners of the land. Again, this is no different from the UK where all land ultimately is owned by the crown - but we have a system of 'freehold' - i.e. just like miri. But look it up and your confusion will be dispelled.

I don't want to speculate on Ben Gurion's classification of the 94% - perhaps he thought all the publically held land was on long term leases to Arabs or that Arabs had free use of the land (like the Bedouin in the Negev). The point is that the quiz rightly highlights the definite figures for Jewish-Palestinian owned land in 1947.

7% was owned by Jewish Palestinians in 1947. Now Israel has 78% of the land and Militarily occupies/controls 22%.

Cheers,

Shafique

As I said, you're not very bright so you didn't understand that 6% and 94% add to 100% and what the implication of that number has on your argument.

Everything else you've said is either lie or spin or both. Miri was public property - your own ARTICLE says as such. Tenants were required to regularly cultivate the land otherwise the government would reclaim it - so your claim that tenants only needed to pay taxes in exchange for the land is a demonstrable lie.

When Israel was legally formed the public land of British Mandate Palestine - miri, etc - became the public land of Israel.

eh - why does the fact that Ben Gurion rightly stated that only 6% of the country of Palestine in 1947 was owned by Jewish Palestinians seem to cause you so much heartache. It is a fact - and in the same Government of Palestine report it explains what the Ottoman system of miri actually means - the same as freehold in the UK - i.e. ownership of the land.

So, no, you are completely mistaken that land under indefinite lease under the British (inherited from Ottoman era) changed status when Israel was formed. The landowners are still landowners - whether under miri indefinite leases or later systems of land tenure.

Just because you don't want to read and understand what the Government of Palestine report explains - don't go around saying it is a lie when it is explained to you.

The quiz facts are right - at time of formation of Israel, 7% of the land (rounding up) was owned by Jewish Palestinians. Now Israel has 78% of the land and military occupies/controls 22% of the land.

Cheers,

Shafique

"Rightly stated" is another one of your lies.

Jewish percentage of private land ownership is impossible to know with certainty. You should stop lying and study the current scholarship.

The landowners are still landowners - whether under miri indefinite leases or later systems of land tenure.

Ah huh, go tell that to a landlord that you, as a tenant, own your aparrment. Seriously, go do that. It should be funny.

Your denials are now just funny.

The Government of Palestine's land survey was accurate when it came to Jewish Palestinian land ownership - and Ben Gurion stated 6% in the UN in 1947. Your 'I don't believe it' line is very weak.

And just because you haven't read what the Government of Palestine report says about the Ottoman system of miri - i.e. that it is indeed land ownership as I described the UK system of Freehold is, just shows that you are being allergic to facts yet again.

Cheers,
Shafique

The Government of Palestine's land survey was accurate when it came to Jewish Palestinian land ownership


No, sorry, not according to modern scholarship.

But really, are you still trying to argue that tenants own their aparments? Hmm?

The bottom line is that miri is public land (according to your own link) and is owned by the government. Tenants occupy the land, nothing more, nothing less.

When Israel was created, ownership of all public land switched hands from the British to the Israelis.

(The British were certainly the owners of miri, as they could and did put restrictions on Jews from buying miri designated land)

You really should not confuse what you read on your blogger friends' sites with 'modern scholarship'.

FD found himself in hot water when he cited Wiki as a reference for his statement about 70% of the land of Palestine, and has thus far run away from the fact that Aumann cited the Government of Palestine's survey as reference, and yet the same survey does not support Aumann's spin. I trust you are not being fooled by such 'scholarship' which is really just made-up spin and not based on any real research.

The Crown owns all the land in the UK. You would look silly if you argued that all the freeholders in the UK weren't really landowners after all. The Government of Palestine's report explains what 'miri' is, and if you cared to read the explanation rather than relying on bloggers you'd know this.

For example, if you had looked at State lands and rural development in mandatory Palestine, 1920-1948
By Warwick P. N. Tyler (preview on Google books), you'd have seen that on pg 13 it states:

Before the 1930s the biggest single source of land, acquired by the Jews, was miri property owned by absentee landlords or the Palestinian effendi class.

The miri property was SOLD by the Palestinian and absentee owners to the Jews. The money did not go to the Government of Palestine. Miri land was therefore bought and sold by those who held this indefinite tenure.

In 1947, the Jewish Palestinians had less than 7% of the land of Palestine. Modern day scholarship confirms this - despite what some bloggers (and some discredited books/articles from the 70's and 80s may say).

Cheers,
Shafique

In 1947, the Jewish Palestinians had less than 7% of the land of Palestine. Modern day scholarship confirms this - despite what some bloggers (and some discredited books/articles from the 70's and 80s may say).

Which modern scholars confirm your belief?

On the other hand, modern studies put Jewish ownership of land that would become Israel at 14%:

Jewish land purchases at the time were concentrated in the Jezreel valley, plain of Esdraelon and coastal plain. (see Buying the Emek for an account of some of the land purchases). It is difficult to estimate the total effect of Zionist land purchases. In the Jezreel valley, the largest single purchase of the Zionists, 240,209 dunams were acquired, of which 129,254 were tenanted. In total 688 families had lived on those lands (348 dunam per family on average), and received 27,434 pounds in compensation (Stein, page 60). In total, the Zionists purchased 1,393,531 dunams of land to 1945 (Stein, Land Problem, Appendix II p. 226) , of which roughly 850,000 dunams had been purchased under the mandate, and the rest had been purchased when the area was under Turkish control. This constituted about 5.4% of the total land area of mandatory Palestine (these figures exclude land purchased in the Hauran in Syria). The above figures do not include additional lands acquired by unregistered transfers, legal transfers made after 1945 and various concessions. In all, Stein estimates that the Jews had acquired about 2 million dunams of land by 1948 (Stein, Land Problem, Appendix II p. 227). This would be 7.6% of the total area of the British mandate, 14% of the land of the UN partition plan (about 30% excluding the Negev, which was almost all government owned) and about 10% of the area within the Green line. Granott gave a figure of 1,734,000 dunams (Granott, Abraham, Agrarian Reform and the Record of Israel, Eyre and Spottiswood, 1956 p. 28) The land almost all fell within the area eventually allotted to the Jewish state by the UN partition plan, and the land eventually within the green lines. Small parcels in the Jerusalem area and Hebron were lost to the Jordanians in 1948 and recovered to Jewish ownership in 1967. Jews had also purchased about 4% of the land in Gaza, and less than 1% in the entire West bank.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Land_ ... estine.htm

You'll see the author cites actual scholars in his article.

I'll await your refutation with something more than your beliefs.

The miri property was SOLD by the Palestinian and absentee owners to the Jews. The money did not go to the Government of Palestine. Miri land was therefore bought and sold by those who held this indefinite tenure.

The Government would still own the land just as much as the landlord owns an apartment or house of a tenant who leaves the apartment but finds other people to move in in his place.

The tenant can even make money from that transaction and the new people would even sign leases to the actual owners of the land - the landlord. None of your argument shows that such transactions prove the land is privately owned. Again, your own source says miri property is public land.

What part of your own source do you not understand?

Fail.

You really need to come out of your fantasy world and stop believing blog sites.

Jewish land purchases before 1930 were mostly of land under Miri tenure. You're arguing now that this land bought by Jews is not owned by Jews, but publically owned lands!

The 6% figure included land purchased by Jews from Miri tenants. If you want to exclude this land, then the figure is much less than 6%. No scholar agrees with you. This is just your latest weird fantasy.

Cheers,

Shafique

Modern scholarship: Jews owned 14% of the land in what would eventually become Israel.

Actually you're misreading what you have quoted.

He is stating that Stein's estimates amount to 14% of the UN partition plan for Palestine - i.e. the 55% of Palestine that was allocated to Israel in the partition plan. He states this amounts to 7.6% (of pre-1948 Palestine). 7.6% of 55% is the 14% he's referring to.

The quiz says that the Jewish Palestinians owned 7% of the land of pa, Stein's estimate adds .6% to this figure of the quiz.



The quiz is correct - Jewish Palestinians at the time of Israel's formation only owned 7% (or 7.6% according to Stein) of the country of Palestine.




I guess the penny has dropped that Jewish land purchases of Miri land cannot be 'public land' as you argued above. If they were, then the figure of Jewish Palestinian landownership would be lower than the 7% in the Government of Palestine survey.

Cheers,
Shafique

Too bad you didn't read the article. Jewish purchased land was often uncultivated land placing them outside of 'miri' property. That's also ignoring the British authorities did not lease miri property to Jews - if Jews acquired miri property it was through Arabs.

The fact is that Jews owned 14% of the land that would become Israel. I didn't see where I misread the article in making that claim and, besides you claiming I did, you actually come around to agreeing that Jews owned 14% of the land that would become Israel.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

No eh, you've failed in your comprehension again.

Stein say that of the country of Palestine, the Jews owned 7.6% (compared to 7% stated in the Quiz). The UN partition allocated 55% of Palestine for the formation of Israel. This 7.6% represents 14% of the land allocated to Israel (55% of Palestine).

The only difference is Stein says the Jewish Palestinians owned 7.6% of the country of Palestine, and the quiz says 7%.

What would become Israel was 78% of the land of Palestine. This means that the Jews owned 7.6% of 78% = 9.7% of the land that would be come Israel (not 14% - 14% is of the land that was allocated by the UN). Capish?

Cheers,
Shafique

Here's the relevant Quiz question - and it is accurate, as you yourself have confirmed in your quote above.

7. Approximately what percentage of Mandatory Palestine's land was owned by Jews at the time of the 1947 UN Partition Plan?
...
Answer
7. 7%: Perhaps Arab rejection of the Partition Plan is more understandable when it is recognized that 37% of the population was given 56% percent of the land of which they owned only 7%.