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So, whats the % of Arab land ownership in 1947?

Conservatively after looking at the figures in the source report - Arabs owned over 60%, compared to only 6% owned by Jewish Palestinians in that report. So Ben Gurion's figure of 94% was not all hyperbole after all.

60% is a low estimate - going by the figures and the maps. You can work it out more accurately from the figures in the report. Let me know what you make the figure out to be - I would think it may be as high as 75% to 80% if you work it out (just look at the 'truly public' land ownership in the maps).

Aren't you annoyed that Aumann misled you in that way? I guess he counted on people being lazy and not actually looking at his cited source. There's a lesson there for you FD.

Cheers,
Shafique

I strongly content those numbers, but ok. If we look at the map, the Negev (which is about half of the country) is for 86% publicly owned. Even a first graders can see your numbers donot add up. But for the sake of making progess, lets go back to your quote.

The land owned by Jewish Palestinians amounted to 7% of the land, and now Israel has 78% of the land. These are facts.

First of all interesting enough, your posted map makes a distinction between jews and palestinians, so I wonder under which category land owned by "jewish palestinians" would fall. The original map by the UN makes a distinction between Arabs and jews by the way. It seems some people found it necessary to change the original Arab to Pali.

But back to the figures. According to you in 1947 7% was owned by jews, 60% by Arabs (you say this is very conversative, but the posted map already shows 60% is way too high) and the rest os public owned.

Nowadays, 3% is privately owned by Arabs, 3% is privately owned by jews, 15% by the Jewish National Fund and the rest is government owned. These are number excluding the Westbank and Gaza. I take it no jew owns land in Gaza and all land there is owned by Arabs. I don't know whether or not one can own privately land in Gaza. I take it that Arab private owned land in the Westbank is more than jewish owned land. But I'll check. All and all at present Arabs own more private land than jews in Israel (including yesha).

Just to put some nuance and reality to your quote, which again mixes private and public owned land, and you shouldn't mix those two if you want to compare.

If you look up the statistics from the reference given and work out the real % - show us that my estimate of more than 60% is wrong. Indeed, it looks like in non-desert areas the Arab ownership is indeed over 90%. I said you'd not be happy with the results. But happy to be corrected if you just work it out from the survey listed.

But let's deal with an easy objection. As I stated in my post - it is the British survey that makes the distinction between land owned by Jewish Palestinians and land owned by other non-Jewish Palestinians. (Page 563 of the survey explains that Jewish ownership was complete, but the Arab and others were lumped together - and lists what the others are - eg non-Arab Christian (so 'Arabs is Muslim and Christian Arabs).

The long term leases of land that Aumann misled you to believe were Public lands were issued in Ottoman times, and the Jewish Palestinian population in the early part of the 20th century are well documented. The Jewish land purchases are also well documented.

Therefore your speculation that the land under ownership of Arab Palestinians as shown in the map above is not accurate does not hold water. The survey states categorically that the Jewish Palestinian ownership of land was around 6%.

Anyway, what this has shown is that the facts in the Quiz are accurate, and that you were willing to believe a falsehood which you should have fact-checked before presenting here (initially without a reference, and one I had to ask twice to get).

As I said, that is a lesson for you.

Any other facts you want us to confirm are accurate from the list?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The survey states categorically that the Jewish Palestinian ownership of land was around 6%.

Anyway, what this has shown is that the facts in the Quiz are accurate

Err, the quiz says 7% was owned by jews...another porkie pie?

Hey, he was being generous and rounded up - the real figure is between 6% and 7%.

But FD - do you have any comment on how pro-Israeli authors have deliberately misled people like you to believe that Palestinian Arabs owned less of the land than they actually did? I mean, I take it you honestly believed the spin that 70% of the land was publically owned and didn't realise that you were being deliberately misled?

Cheers,

Shafique

The only fraud in this thread is where private owned land in 1947 is compared to public owned owned land after 1947!

Hmm - interesting straw man. The quiz rightly pointed out that 7% of the land was owned by Palestinians who were Jewish. We've seen a quote from Ben Gurion saying the Arab Palestinians owned 94% to 6% by the Jewish Palestinians (in the UN in 1947 - and referring to Palestinian land ownership).

But hey - I'm reassured that this weak argument of yours in the 'only fraud' in this thread devoted to facts. That speaks volumes.

6% of Palestine owned by Jewish Palestinians before Israel formed, now Israel has 78% of the land area. Can't see how this fact is a 'fraud'.

What is definitely a fraud is your assertion that 70% of the land was publicly owned when in fact most of this land was effectively owned by Arab Palestinians. Why do you continue refuse to comment on this fraud?

Cheers,
Shafique

Are you done changing your post?

Are you stalling now? Shall I ask you for a third time about the fraud of the alleged 70% publicly owned land, or are you going to evade the question again?

You asked me a few times about the % of land owned by Arabs - so I'll return the favour and ask you about the alleged 70% figure which turns out to be spin.

Cheers,

Shafique

Hold your horses and keep your pants on, man! Take it ez.

You changed your post, so I am just asking.

shafique wrote: ask you about the alleged 70% figure which turns out to be spin.

I am sorry, master, but what exactly are you asking?

shafique wrote:It appears that Ben Gurion was correct and that your wiki quote from Aumann is nothing but spin.

Well, let's see where this 70% figure from Aumann comes from...
Government of Palestine, Survey of Palestine, 1946, British Government Printer, p. 257

Which, interestingly enough - is the same survey used to produce the map above.
So, let's go to pg 257:...

Read that page and the preceding pages and we see that the land Aumann is calling public land is actually land that is owned by Palestinian Arabs under the 'miri' category - i.e. indefinite leases where the rent is the obligation to pay taxes - i.e. the land is in fact owned on a freehold basis. This is the same system as in the UK - the ultimate owner is the crown, but you own the freehold.

Which was in response to your reference:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Above quote from wiki is traced to:

Moshe Aumann, "Land Ownership in Palestine 1880 - 1948," in Michael Curtis, Joseph Neyer, Chaim Waxman, Allen Pollack eds., The Palestinians: People, History, Politics (New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Books, 1975), p. 29.

I'm simply asking you about your assertion that 70% of land of Palestine in 1947 was publicly owned and not owned by Arab Palestinians, whereas the source material Aumann uses states that most of the 'public' land is actually on indefinite lease and effectively owned on a freehold basis.

Aumann was spinning a story - and referring to a source which doesn't back his assertion (which you quoted as fact).

This is precisely the myth that the OP seeks to overturn ('that Palestine was empty' etc )

I simply asked for your comments on this refutation of your original claim (I inserted my statement you were replying to):

Flying Dutchman wrote:Actually Shaf, in 1947, around 70% of Mandate land was public property! It appears you need a 101 in the differense between private and public.

It appears I'm not the one who needs a lesson. Miri tenure was indeed private property - on an indefinite lease.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I simply asked for your comments on this refutation of your original claim

My comment is that it is my humble opinion that the 70% is closer to reality compared to saying less than a third was publicly owned (which is what you are saying when you claim more than 60% of the land was Arab owned)

Thanks for stating your opinion - however, I was asking about the fact that the source of your 70% claim from wiki turns out to be a fraud, as the source material does not support his claim.

I know you understood this fact the first time I uncovered the fraud and gave you the reference to the source material - so I guess your evasiveness is the usual denial tactics we come to see when facts are given.

[But for completeness, let's be clear - the source material and links/maps all support my conservative estimate that whilst 6% of Palestine was owned by Jewish Palestinians in 1947, over 60% was owned by Arab and Other Palestinians. You have been invited to work out the actual %s from the sources - and see by how much over 60% the figure is (or indeed if it is less as you opine).]

Fair enough.

Suffice to say then, that the facts in the Quiz are all unrefuted by yourself or anyone else. The quiz rightly states that in 1947 only 7% (rounding up) of the land of Palestine was owned by Jewish inhabitants of Palestine.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: The quiz rightly states that in 1947 only 7% (rounding up) of the land of Palestine was owned by Jewish inhabitants of Palestine.

...and with that we both agree.

* reaching hand for a firm hand shake *

Excellent.

I thank you too for exposing us to Moshe Aumann's deliberate misinterpretation of the land ownership survey from which the agreed figure of 7% comes from. Interesting to note that the survey was carried out by 'The Government of Palestine'.

Aumann's quote, which you mistakenly thought was fact, was one of the myths the quiz sought to correct.

Cheers,
Shafique

Just one more thing, in this thread it is mentioned that Israel broke the truce, while it was actually Hamas who broke the truth.

FD - the quiz does not talk about the Gaza massacre and the verifiable fact that Israel broke the truce on November 4 2008, and then proceeded to lie about it.

The facts have already been established in this thread:
http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-politics-talk/gaza-truce-who-broke-t40269.html

But hey, if you want to have another look at the quiz and the facts exposed there - let us know if you do have any objections to any of the facts raised. It appears you are now looking outside of the Quiz.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The facts have already been established in this thread:
[url=gaza-truce-who-broke-t40269.html]http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-politics-talk/gaza-truce-who-broke-t40269.html[/url]

A good case for Hamas breaking the truce is presented in there.

The fact that Israel broke the truce on Nov 4 2008 when the truce was holding and then proceeded to lie about 'Hamas rockets' breaking the truce during the Gaza Massacre is what the facts show in the OP of that thread.

Israel didn't use your weak attempt at revisionism at the time - the CNN news item specifically looked at Israel's claims that Hamas had broken the truce and showed Israel had lied.

But we have a thread for this fact and all the evidence is there.

Is there any fact in the Quiz that you disagree are facts? I stated in the OP that you couldn't refute any of the facts the first time I posted them, it appears to remain the case now.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The fact that Israel broke the truce on Nov 4 2008 when the truce

The truce was already broken before that.

Please see my previous post - the facts about the truce being broken by Israel are well covered in the other thread.

Is there any fact in the Quiz that you disagree are facts? I stated in the OP that you couldn't refute any of the facts the first time I posted them, it appears to remain the case now.

Cheers,

Shafique

Did you not see the facts in the map above FD? Are figures there wrong - very little of the districts had much public ownership, 2% of Jerusalem was Public, 84% Arab and 14% Jewish.

Ben Gurion stated the following at the UN on 4 July 1947, was he wrong?:
There are some 600,000 Jews in Palestine and some 1,100,000 Arabs. ..The Arabs own 94% of the land, the Jews only 6%.

http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/773 ... enDocument


Cheers,

Shafique

So basically, according to your "interpretation" of Ben Gurion, there is no publicly owned property in British Mandate Palestine?

Sorry eh, you've lost me. What particluar 'interpretation' of Ben Gurion's quote are you referring to?

I quoted him directly and referenced the UN speech it came from - giving a direct link.

The Government of Palestine's survey of land ownership also makes it clear that most of the public land was actually under indefinite leases set up under the Ottomans, and hence the % of land ownership by Arab (Muslims and Christians) and Jews given in the survey do accurately reflect the situation - and exposes the deliberate misrepresentation given by Aumann and others.

In 1947 about 6% of the land of Palestine was owned by Palestinian Jews. Ben Gurion chose to lump in all the rest as 'owned by Arabs'. Perhaps he thought that 'predominantly' meant 'all'?

Cheers,

Shafique

The arguments that Israel broke the truce are very weak, and donot line up with the reality that Hamas broke the truce.

But since you want to back to the quiz, I do have something to add.

shafique wrote:Is there any fact in the Quiz that you disagree are facts?

Yes, I want to come back to question 9, I didn't finish with that:

9. During the 1948-49 War, approximately how many Arabs fled or were ejected from the areas that became the Jewish state?

The answer in the quiz is 700,000. This is incorrect, since the 700,000 also includes the Arabs who left parts that were not part of the Jewish state (the Westband and Gaza) in 1948-1949.

Yes, as I stated in an earlier post - I thought you would have highlighted this particular fact.

The point is that the UN published numbers of refugees:

15. The estimate of the statistical expert, which the Committee believes to be as accurate as circumstances permit, indicates that the refugees from Israel- controlled territory amount to approximately 711,000.

http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/b7923 ... enDocument

Professor Porath does state in his article that the numbers are indeed inflated, but that Israelis did expel Arab Palestinians, and also highlights that this was an explicit policy of the Haganah. (Israeli apologists like Joan Peters try and make out the expulsions were sporadic). Let's see what I said (earlier in the thread):

shafique wrote:Now, I thought you were going to discuss the numbers given - for those leaving or ejected (and in any case if you own the land, you own the land - unless you sell it. If it is taken from you, it is stolen).

But let's also be clear that some Arabs were indeed expelled:

As historians of the 1948 war know well, the Haganah prepared in March 1948 a strategic plan (the Dalet or "fourth" plan) to deal with the imminent invasion of Palestine by the Arab countries. A major aim of the plan was to form a continuous territory joining the lands held by the Jewish settlements. The plan clearly states that if Arab villages violently opposed the Jewish attempt to gain control, their populations would be expelled. The text was first made public in Israel in 1972 as an appendix to the last volume of the semiofficial History of the Haganah.

So what is your figure and source for the lower number of Arab Palestinians who left or were expelled from the land they owned (either under Ottoman indefinite leases or other forms of land ownership, land rentals etc)?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:So what is your figure and source for the lower number of Arab Palestinians who left or were expelled from the land they owned

My answer to the question of the quiz would be 600,000 or less. Do you concede the 700,000 numbers includes Arab who left areas outside (Judean, Samaria and Gaza) the area that was Israel in 1948-1949?

I do agree with Prof Porath that the 711,000 refugee figure cited by the UN was inflated - and yes, I'd be happy to accept that the figure of refugees from the country of Palestine that existed prior to Israel being formed was around 100,000 fewer than the figure quoted. I think there were other issues with this figure too - not just counting refugees from outside the country of pre-1948 Palestine.

So, I'm happy to concede that this fact should be about 600,000 refugees and not the 700,000 he quotes. I would even be happier with a more conservative figure - say of around 400,000 definite refugees.

In the scheme of the peace process, I don't think anyone realistically imagines that 400,000 refugees and their descendants will be allowed back to what is now Israel - but it is important a fact in terms of the negotiations and in terms of understanding who is making concessions in the negotiations.

With this one change, is there any other change to the facts listed?

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry eh, you've lost me. What particluar 'interpretation' of Ben Gurion's quote are you referring to?

What does 94% and 6% of privately owned land add up to?

eh - I asked you a simple question. What particluar 'interpretation' of Ben Gurion's direct quote are you referring to when you wrote:

event horizon wrote:according to your "interpretation" of Ben Gurion

I stated his quote verbatim, I did not offer an interpretation of it at all.

Cheers,
Shafique