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event horizon wrote:Pakistanis are suffering because of American policies and aggression in the region

They are suffering cuz they are a bunch of dumbasses.

DD is right - it's Pakistanis killing Pakistanis - and been going on for decades now.

Now the US has got in the act, it is making the whole situation worse, not better. But you can't blame the US for the sectarian killings. That's all on the Pakistani nutters.

only to be dispersed after police fired into the air and threw rocks at them.

Isn't it the other way around?

first of all shrines shouldnt exist in the first place. I dont support the killing of innocent ppl but I dont support that shrines can be made over night for some guy who had no role in Islam whats so ever... Its a shame that there is a lack of knowledge, education about Islam in that region!!!

ironically if the taliban were behind this, they would be doing the right thing i.e getting rid of something that was not allowed in islam!!!

doing the right thing i.e getting rid of something that was not allowed

yes, thats why I said ironically, however their method is COMPLETELY wrong but than again we are talking about Pakistan where everyone thinks they are an expert when it comes to Religion and Politics oh when I said they are an expert it usually means they dont tend to listen to the other party!!!

ask yourself why arent Shrines allowed in KSA? they have laws and rules which make sure such un-islamic things dont occur!! Thats not the same case in Pakistan and there are some people who tend to take law into their own hands and try to do something themselves when they find out their gov is corrupt etc etc and dont really give a crap about sharia law in the country.

Who says that foreign intelligence services don't leak into sects, tribes cousing revolts, killings,,, therefore controlling the nation like the way they want etc.?

We have successfully done this with Sunni tribes in Iraq’s Anbar province, supporting them in their desire to work with U.S. forces to control Al Qaida (who have been fomenting civil strife by killing Iraqis through ethnic- and sectarian-targeted operations). This “Awakening” program has served us extremely well, at least in the short run, having put heavy pressure on Al Qaida and having removed the Sunni tribes (insurgents) in question from the body of Iraqis who have been devoted to killing American troops.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/item/ ... ining.html

Dude, Berrin you really have trouble following the matter being discussed. Read the heading it says Pakistani's not Iraqi's

berrrin in a way you are right that the Indian inteligence agency could be behind this but these are conspiracies which cant be supported unless evidence is provided. And there is no way evidence can be provided in a country like Pakistan because they dont have the TECHNOLOGY or the basic forensic setup like other countries like KSA or even UAE!!

I have even heard conspiracies that the Pakistani Inteligence agency the ISI could also be behind this by creating havoc and destruction in Pakistan so that they can get more aid and more technology such as UAV from USA!!!

its a world filled with greed

Do you have trouble to understand operative capacity of intellegence services and how they work?
Take out iraq, put in pakistan, Afghanistan,iran, shiites, sunnies or whatever religious sects you have..
Just look at the big picture as to see how they manage it all rather than getting lost in details in the mean time...

Another example...

Now we learn from ace investigative reporter Sy Hersh, speaking on CNN, that Bush and his criminal crew have been using this illicit, stolen cash to fund covert attacks on Iranian targets, and that much of the money has been going--get this--to Sunni jihadists linked to Al-Qaeda--the very people we're fighting in Iraq!

This is surely taking that old saw, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," to the extreme! First we let Osama Bin Laden escape from Tora Bora, and now we're funding him and his allies, supposedly to attack our new enemy, Iran. It's enough to make you queasy. Osama must be laughing all the way to the bank. First we set him up, when we wanted him to attack the Soviets in Afghanistan. Then he turned on us and attacked us. And now we're back to supporting him again.

No wonder when Congress passed a bill creating an office of inspector general to check on all that vanishing Iraq cash, Bush furtively issued one of his "signing statements" saying that the new inspector would be barred from examining any funds that involved the Pentagon--effectively nullifying the law!

http://www.truth-out.org/article/hersh- ... ted-groups

By the way what was the excuse to invade Afghansitan and pakistan therefore "Afpak" war?..

well, Obama has appealed regularly to the intelligence estimates, which have invariably claimed that bin Laden is hiding in Pakistan, somewhere along its border with Pakistan. This claim has been used to justify the extension of US military activity into Pakistan, with the result that people now speak of the “AfPak war.”

But where is Bin Laden dead or alive? If dead why is it not officially declared by Americans? or Do we think that they would ever declare it anyway!

fake bin Laden tapes appear to be simply one part of an extensive propaganda operation, in which the US military intelligence is using tax dollars – illegally – to propagandize the American public, with the aim of furthering the militarization of America and its foreign policy.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=15601

In the mean time Americans continue to stir up secterial tention in these countries to continue their agenda, while US troops executing prisoners in Afghanistan, probably in pakistan as well...
Who will tell us the right from wrong, if these people are terrorists or insurgents? What other excuses do they have to stay in these countries?
http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=219429

Dude you don't like me to say this, but I will repeat it again, today if there is brutal terror in muslim countries, fighting each other and killing one another is not becouse of their own couse but becouse of the dirty work played upon them...This is the only reason for me to back them, and my backing is unconditional no matter what happens and no matter what they do to each other, I will always stand by them, until international terror subsides or brought under control..Until this happens you will never see any kind of democracy or human rights in any muslim countries, that's what I am sure of at least..Restricting muslims from democracy and limiting their human rights are the objectives of international terror anyways and this suits their objective to oppress and control them further this way anyways..

Again, replace this with that ! Why ? Again conspiracy theories galore, passing on the blame to the great satan. Ofcourse its much to easy to pass the blame on to external forces than to actually deal with it.

P.S : Didn't read beyond the 1st paragraph of your very boring and long post

Again, replace this with that ! Why ? Again conspiracy theories galore, passing on the blame to the great satan.

I would love to side with you, if only,muslim nations were sterile from foreign interfere/intrusion and left to their own devices to solve bothering matters amongst themselves as they progress and develop , but no, unfortunaetly it's those unsolved matters that are used badly as tools to entice row and war amongst muslims so that non-muslims succeed invasion and establish hegemony over them.

Ofcourse its much to easy to pass the blame on to external forces than to actually deal with it.

Ok do you think, if everthing else was dead calm and peaceful amongst muslims, they wouldn't face the troubles they're facing today? If yes,you're so naive...(You need to read the history to see how the arabs were lied by the secret agents of the western world and were turned against ottomans to revolt in order to crumble the empire and to take over ME affairs... Not just that, many recent wars amongst them recently occured the same way as well..

If we get back to today's terms to back you in your argument then you should be able to show me one muslim nation which sticks to the core values of islam to defend muslims in general and that is all developed and industrilised, has leading arms and weapons industry, is rich therefore politically independant and could face any threatening nation without hesitation?
Without these no muslim nation will be independent, either will accept to be bribed and live corrupt (without much human loss in this case) under kingdoms or dictators like in the case of ME nations or resist and fight to death until intruders give up like the way Talibans fight.. It's a matter of choice? May be you'll tell us which way more acceptable in the name of islam, by God?
And I agree about what Shafique wrote on a previous thread..
On Non-violence:
“Fight violence with nonviolence if you can, and if you can’t do that, fight violence by any means, even if it means your utter extinction. But in no case should you leave your hearths and homes to be looted and burnt.”
“Speech at Goalundo” (6 November 1946)
dubai-politics-talk/great-gandhi-quotes-t42251.html

Muslims are not meant to take violence in underground and do dirty work like secret agents of the western world to stir up relations and matters...Muslims meant to fight openly, declare it and fight against them physically under equal terms and proportional force...Which western nation cares about this? Which side is more in rot?

I know you want me to say this...
Muslims Are Their Own Worst Enemy
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/201 ... rst-enemy/

But still it's so obvious that without a underlying foreign culprit they wouldn't be in as much mess and worse situation as they are found today..That's for sure...

Yawn move on ! you still have nothing to new to say,

Spend a week in Pakistan then maybe you will roll your theories and stuff them where the sun don't shine. Berrin you really are in a world of your own arn't you. Your the kind of people who these fundamentalist creep look out for. People who have nothing but spite for the world and blame everything wrong in the world on the great evil west. I wouldn't be surprised If I see you with a bomb strapped to you trying to blow up a few " devils "

Yes like I mentioned I'm no fan of the western foriegn policy but that doesn't mean that when a top official of the FIA : Federal Investigation Agency of Lahore goes out for a stroll is kidnapped held for ransom, later killed and chopped into tiny bits by his own driver ( True story the dude was a friend of my father ). Is because the Americans.

When one of my acquaintances and good friend of my friend is shot 8 times in front of his house in Karachi ( in April this year ) is because of the CIA.

I stayed there for four months and not a day went by I didn't here for a serious crime. And thats just to people living in our street. The CIA or the MI6 is not responsible for that.

When a traffic cop is bought for 2 rupees yes 2 rupees, when the cops them self come and collect protection money from my friends shop every thursday and he doesn't pay he shop is torn down. The CIA is not to blame for that.

It is a fcuking shit hole and will remain so because of the corruption, lawlessness, lack of education, jagirdari and Zamindari system. The sh!t heads in the north.

You are blantantly baised towards non muslims and it is people like you from our side and that troll Ratty EH from the other side that this world is in this mess.it is in currently.

Get a life and open your eyes.

dd i agree that pakistanis are quick to put their blame on the west, israel, russia or even india for their own problems.

However you got to realise that "conspiracies" which berrin talks about can be true or they cant be!! we dont know because we are led to believe that the "taliban" are behind all of this destruction and havoc but how do we believe them? They havent provided us with any evidence and you have said it yourself that the system is so effed up that policemen can be bought for 2 rs than how can we be sure that the army or the isi isnt behind all of this??

You have to see who is benefitting from what is happening in Pakistan?

Politicians? yeh fair enough they have got the aid which they will probably miss use
Army? yeh got all the "latest" technology from USA for their part in fighthing taliban. hmmm is that "technology" still in Pakistan? Hmmm with people like Libya, Iran, North Korea willing to pay billions for that technology, do you think that technology is still there!!!
India? hmmm am sure they must be cheesed off with the pakis getting all that latest technology

by the way are taliban really in the fault when they blew up a shrine which is not allowed in Islam?

Nobody's denying that there is direct and indirect meddeling by agencies, "Muslim" countries or Pakistan are not the only one. They muck about everywhere from central to south America to Asia to Russia.

But to totally blame the whole mess on them is naive. They play limited roles in influencing policies and outcome of certain events which are in favor of their countries.

But you can't blame sh1t like that Pakistan claims to be progressive nation which it lacks simple basics like the ability to provide its citizens with clean water and electricity. Education and infrastructure. Which agency is to blame for that. The CIA, MI6 or the KGB ?

Countries like sweden have now broadband internet access a part of a citizens right, While majority of the Pakistani population cannot even read, yet billions are spent on developing ICBMs and Nuclear weapons to fend of a phantom enemy. CIA again perhaps ?

I for one cannot think of one single good thing to say for that country.