Overseas Aid

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Overseas Aid Mar 29, 2011
Bora Bora wrote:The US helped to rebuild Japan from the ground up after the war - compensation for dropping the bomb on a country that bombed Pearl Harbor killing thousands and sinking/destroying naval ships. If a country wants to rebuild itself all they need to do is go to war with the US. Regardless of who "wins" the US will finance the rebuilding. Japan never felt guilty for bombing Pearl Harbor. The Japanese used the compensation wisely whereas the US keeps giving to a corrupt country that doesn't invest it but banks it for the few involved. One country among many that has no accountability as to where the money goes.


I decided to start a new thread in response to Bora Bora's statements above.

The Lessons Learned from WW1.

After WW1 In 1919, Lloyd George of England, Clemenceau of France, Orlando of Italy, and Wilson from the US met to discuss how Germany and it’s allies were to be made to collectively and individually, accept full responsibility, and to pay for the damage WW1 had caused.

The original 14 point plan that Wilson believed would bring stability to Europe, that Germany expected to be signatory to, bore little resemblance to the final punishing ‘Treaty of Versailles’.

There were, in the end, 440 clauses in the final draft. The first 26 clauses dealt with the establishment of the League of Nations (Later to develop into the United Nations). The remaining 414 clauses spelled out Germany's punishment.

Germany’s Army was reduced to 100,000, the Navy reduced to six ships, the Air Force, Tanks and Submarines banned completely, lands were confiscated and given to France, Belgium, Denmark, Czechoslovakia and Poland, when the final accounting of the cost of the war was complete, Germany was to pay £6.6M in reparations and The League of Nations took control of all Germany's colonies, other treaties determined the fate of those countries that had fought with Germany, which were Austria, Hungary, Bulgaria and Turkey, all of whom suffered similar losses.

These Countries After WW1, were left demoralised, bankrupt, destitute and alone, and for these reasons, historians today, argue convincingly that it was the Treaty of Versailles 414 punishment clauses and that Germany was ostracised by the rest of the world, which ultimately provided Adolf Hitler the impetus and the German people the appetite for revenge.

Adolf Hitler was voted into power for his promises to ‘Rip up the Treaty of Versailles’, and after his accession to the position of Chancellor in 1933, started to rebuild Germany’s Third Reich, his first campaign was in 1936 where he started to recover the Lands taken away from Germany in the Treaty of Versailles, this eventually led on to the declaration of War and the start of World War Two in September 1939 when Britain and France declared war on Germany following Germany's invasion of Poland.

This was the lesson learned from WW1, to be magnanimous in victory, bring to justice the criminals of war but don’t further punish a whole Nation unnecessarily, make the culprits pay reparations but make it by affordable means and if necessary, help to rebuild that Nation so they will be able to repay their debt to the forces that brought them to book and society.

The rebuilding of Europe and Japan after WW2 was more than just cash donations from the US to the Japanese economy and to Europe through the Marshall Plan, it was provided mainly in the form of Plant and Machinery, Materials and Technical support as exports from the US, it was a win-win scenario for everyone involved, Europe and Japan benefited from the financial aid and the US and Canadian economies benefited from exports through the revised trade barriers that existed pre war.

The aid was provided with conditions and through a system similar to mercantilism, very little cash left the US, in the case of Japan, $2.44Bn and Europe $12.4Bn in aid was made available, how this aid was delivered is as follows;

1. A US authority was established to manage the funds
2. Product, Raw Materials and Technical Support was purchased from the USA and Canada
3. The US or Canadian suppliers were paid by their home governments in $
4. The money was offset against the funds made available for aid to the receiving countries
5. The receiver of the goods had to pay his/her government in local currency for the goods in cash or credit plus a 5% levy for admin costs to the US fund manager
6. The receiving Governments were then free to utilise these funds for further infrastructure investment and maybe even the odd holiday on the Costa Del Sol!
7. The Marshall Plan money was in the form of grants that did not have to be repaid to the US.

Germany and Japan went on to develop into two of the strongest economies in the world today, notwithstanding the financial cost of the reunification of East Germany, and the mounting costs of the current disaster in Japan while yet, are to be fully appreciated, I believe it is widely accepted this will not have a lasting effect on Japan’s economy.

Bora Bora wrote:the US keeps giving to a corrupt country that doesn't invest it but banks it for the few involved. One country among many that has no accountability as to where the money goes.


I’m not sure what monies or which countries are being referred to with the above statement.

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Re: Overseas Aid Mar 29, 2011
The US gives aid in different forms to over 150 countries. Israel, Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, Kenya, South Africa, Mexico, Columbia, Nigeria, Sudan, Ethopia to name a few. Can you pick out the corrupt countries?? Remember Imelda Marcos??? Top of the list is Afghanistan, but we all know what that is about. And every year what they request keeps going up.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aEVQAd1dqi0/S ... Y11+RQ.png
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Re: Overseas Aid Mar 29, 2011
BB, I think USA government is the most double faces gov in the world... but I like it when they lie ( they look funny) ... regarding the aid, isn't it to serve their interests in these countries? and past few weeks they made themselves a real joke...
80 % of global aid from UN or/and USA is just a big joke...
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Re: Overseas Aid Mar 29, 2011
It would serve the US better if they took care of the health and education of Americans!!! 150 countries?? and they are ALL allies of the US?? More are an enemy of the US than those who even remotely "like" the US. It's not just the US that pours money into those countries. Many, many other countries provide aid of one kind or another to them as well. Where the h@ll is all that money going???
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Re: Overseas Aid Mar 29, 2011
Bora Bora wrote:It would serve the US better if they took care of the health and education of Americans!!! 150 countries?? and they are ALL allies of the US?? More are an enemy of the US than those who even remotely "like" the US. It's not just the US that pours money into those countries. Many, many other countries provide aid of one kind or another to them as well. Where the h@ll is all that money going???


Same for the UK, Bora. I'm a big believer of charity begins at home. Why is the UK still giving Foreign Aid when we have problems at home? It's just been announced that our local NHS Trust is £10m in debt. People are losing their jobs right, left and centre and the only budget that hasn't been cut is the Foreign Aid budget.
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Re: Overseas Aid Mar 29, 2011
correct me if I am wrong, but I think we all agree that these aid is in wrong places!!! despite the fact that you believe it should be spent internally in US or UK, and I don't care where they are spend, but I don't see it as a real aid...

-- Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:57 pm --

regarding where that money going, this is a good question, if US doesn't see a real effect on the ground on countries they are giving aid, why do they keep on giving their money away? I can't be sure of that, but that money so far goes to the countries leaders and this explains why some ppl of these countries don't seem to be liking the US government...

I believe most of Americans aren't aware of the billions that being sent abroad, but politicians there have a great way of lying I guess...
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Re: Overseas Aid Mar 29, 2011
Bora Bora wrote:The US helped to rebuild Japan from the ground up after the war - compensation for dropping the bomb on a country that bombed Pearl Harbor killing thousands and sinking/destroying naval ships. If a country wants to rebuild itself all they need to do is go to war with the US. Regardless of who "wins" the US will finance the rebuilding. Japan never felt guilty for bombing Pearl Harbor. The Japanese used the compensation wisely whereas the US keeps giving to a corrupt country that doesn't invest it but banks it for the few involved. One country among many that has no accountability as to where the money goes.

:shock: :shock: :shock:
A few hundred thousand peacefull civilians (90,000–166,000 killed in Hiroshima 60,000–80,000 killed in Nagasaki) together with long lasting heavy radiation for destroying naval ships. Darling, have those blood money stuck in your throat and you struggle for breath? It has been one of the largest war crime in the history.
Indirect support like transfering technologies from US to Japs and opening US markets for Japanes goods was really huge but I doubt that you can count it as a refund for mushrooms.
As for the gilt Japs have not felt it even to Chinks, whom they killed in millions. It's very opposite to Germans for instance.
The only REAL US support, which was not written by our bosom English buddy, was 30 billion lend-lease to the UK. It was very huge and came very intime to rebuild English military after Dunkirk "miracle" :wink: . Moreover, Brits had returned money only for 10% undistroyed hardware during 50 years after the war!
I just wonder why the largest borrower as a rule is the least grateful.
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Re: Overseas Aid Mar 30, 2011
Red Chief wrote:The only REAL US support, which was not written by our bosom English buddy, was 30 billion lend-lease to the UK. It was very huge and came very intime to rebuild English military after Dunkirk "miracle" :wink: . Moreover, Brits had returned money only for 10% undistroyed hardware during 50 years after the war!
I just wonder why the largest borrower as a rule is the least grateful.


Well RC, the subject of the thread is Overseas aid, Lend-Lease wasn’t granted aid and Great Britain wasn’t the exclusive benefactor, without the GB-US Lend-Lease agreement, the outcome of WW2 for Europe including the USSR and the USA would have been a totally different story, as we indeed have discussed on the forum before :wink:

When Churchill asked for help after the Dunkirk miracle, (which I always relate to the Moscow Miracle, when during operation ‘Barbarossa’ German forces were surprisingly ordered by Hitler to turn South when they were only 25 virtually undefended miles from the Kremlin :shock: ) the USA demanded all the UK’s gold, as much money as the UK could borrow and insisted that all available public and private assets be sold. The Americans demanded entry to Britain’s export markets and Britain had to hand over details of numerous new British inventions (including the jet engine). These were goodwill gifts which the USA demanded, not in return for helping Britain in the war against Hitler, but simply to agree to sell arms to Britain.

American aid to Britain was always based on self interest. Prior to 1941 munitions were sold to Britain and France so that German ambitions were limited to Europe. This also won the US time to rearm.

American aid was only granted in return for the surrender of British bases in the western hemisphere, and the sale, at reduced prices, of British owned companies and investments in the US, Canada and Latin America, the virtual seizure of South Africa's gold production by American warships, restrictions on British exports and finally the removal of the UK's currency and trade controls which could have been used to rebuild its pre-war international trade zone. And for all this, Roosevelt’s response to Churchill’s request for help was to agree to give Britain fifty old and pretty useless destroyers that spent more time in British shipyards for essential repairs than they did at sea.

But therein lies another story, contrary to popular opinion, Great Britain paid dearly for American aid pre 1941, and in further post war loans, it was the munitions sales and these additional loans that indebted Great Britain to the US, not the Lend-Lease agreement. :roll:
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Re: Overseas Aid Mar 30, 2011
Dillon wrote:Well RC, the subject of the thread is Overseas aid, Lend-Lease wasn’t granted aid and Great Britain wasn’t the exclusive benefactor, without the GB-US Lend-Lease agreement, the outcome of WW2 for Europe including the USSR and the USA would have been a totally different story, as we indeed have discussed on the forum before :wink:

As I wrote in previous post it was almost granted. Moreover, US offered such a generous conditions only to the UK, not to USSR. If you had not wanted to pay even 10% bill you could have returned used equipment back as USSR did. Of cause UK did not do that but asked for the new loans for rebuilding their economy after the war.
But as we can see there is no gratitude behind the flimsy pretexts.
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Re: Overseas Aid Mar 30, 2011
Red Chief wrote:
Dillon wrote:Well RC, the subject of the thread is Overseas aid, Lend-Lease wasn’t granted aid and Great Britain wasn’t the exclusive benefactor, without the GB-US Lend-Lease agreement, the outcome of WW2 for Europe including the USSR and the USA would have been a totally different story, as we indeed have discussed on the forum before :wink:

As I wrote in previous post it was almost granted. Moreover, US offered such a generous conditions only to the UK, not to USSR. If you had not wanted to pay even 10% bill you could have returned used equipment back as USSR did. Of cause UK did not do that but asked for the new loans for rebuilding their economy after the war.
But as we can see there is no gratitude behind the flimsy pretexts.


You’ve no idea what you’re talking about RC, did you even read my earlier post? Do you believe the Wiki articles you so obviously rely on are exhaustive? Did it ever occur to you why Britain got such a good deal with the Lend-Lease agreement? It’s because Britain paid dearly for it. The US has been credited with more than adequate gratitude, and since September 2006, repaid in full, within the agreements for the contributions and efforts made to Great Britain during and immediately after WW2. It would appear that you are the only one on the planet that resents this for some obscure reason, live with it, let go, you’ll be a much happier individual for it!

:lol:
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Re: Overseas Aid Mar 30, 2011
Dillon wrote:You’ve no idea what you’re talking about RC, did you even read my earlier post? Do you believe the Wiki articles you so obviously rely on are exhaustive? Did it ever occur to you why Britain got such a good deal with the Lend-Lease agreement? It’s because Britain paid dearly for it.


Dillon, I don't belive in anything. Give me facts, which support that dearly payment. I have no idea why US put the UK on dole almost forgiving them lend-lease debt or buying British worthless national bonds for decades after the war. I doubt that you can also blame US that your government wasted Anglo-American loan, which was critical for surviving the UK after WWII, on Labour government's welfare reforms instead of rebuilding own economy.

Historian Alan Sked has commented that, "the U.S. didn't seem to realize that Britain was bankrupt", and that the loan was "denounced in the House of Lords, but in the end the country had no choice."America offered $US 4.33bn (US$53 billion in 2011) and Canada contributed another US$1.19 bn (US$15 billion in 2011), both at the rate of 2% annual interest. With the interest instead of paying the original loan amount the United Kingdom ended up paying a total of $7.5bn (£3.8bn) to the US and US$2 bn (£1bn) to Canada.


I cannot see here any digit like $31,5bn (US$386 billion in 2011) though.
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