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I thought I was quite clear - the key ideologies of the Nazis are right wing, and hence this is why Hitler and the Nazis are right wing.

Lipstick and pig (see previous post).

In the scheme of conspiracy theories, this one is one of the weirdest. FD's OP talks about this being a victory for the 'left church'. However, I'd estimate that more people believe the world is flat than believe Hitler was a left-winger.

For me the clincher is what Nazi's Key Ideologies were. The non-key written goals don't outweigh the extreme right wing nature of their key ideologies.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I thought I was quite clear

You haven't been clear at all. The argument, "because I say so", is not really a compelling one. You haven't refuted any of the arguments, instead you resort to trolling, which apparently is TRUELY the only thing you can do.

He's been very clear.

Mussolini is "right wing" and uh.... he found a website and is repeating himself and he'll do that over engaging in any meaningful conversation.

The Nazis' own 25 point program becomes "non-key" not based on any logical argument but because it's not found repeated on his website.

The troll uses a website owner's opinion over the Nazi party's own spelled out political platform. This is the thinking of a mental midget we're dealing with here.

The troll is a waste of time (and oxygen).

Ok, let's see if we can clear up eh and FD's confusion over why I've said only a few right-wingers view Hitler as left-wing.

I'll highlight some key words for you two and will leave out any unnecessary commentary, but will leave in one question at the end:

shafique wrote:I thought I was quite clear - the key ideologies of the Nazis are right wing, and hence this is why Hitler and the Nazis are right wing.

Key elements of the Nazi ideology

• National Socialist Program
• Racism
• Especially anti-Semitism, which eventually culminated in the Holocaust.
• The creation of a Herrenrasse (Master Race= by the Lebensborn (Fountain of Life; A department in the Third Reich)
• Anti-Slavism
• Belief in the superiority of the White, Germanic, Aryan or Nordic races.
• Euthanasia and Eugenics with respect to "Racial Hygiene"
• Anti-Marxism, Anti-Communism, Anti-Bolshevism
• The rejection of democracy, with as a consequence the ending the existence of political parties, labour unions, and free press.
• Führerprinzip (Leader Principle) /belief in the leader (Responsibility up the ranks, and authority down the ranks.)
• Strong show of local culture.
• Social Darwinism
• Defense of Blood and Soil (German: "Blut und Boden" - represented by the red and black colors in the Nazi flag)
• "Lebensraumpolitik", "Lebensraum im Osten" (The creation of more living space for Germans)
• Related to Fascism

http://www.nazism.net/about/nazi_ideology/
(BTW - you can easily confirm that I have listed the COMPLETE list and not selectively edited as you guys tend to do. How many of your supposedly left wing aspects of Nazism are on this list? (Answer seems to be zero))

Cheers,
Shafique

I like how the troll keeps repeating himself.

As if his arguments haven't been countered over and over and over again.

shafique wrote:only a few right-wingers view Hitler as left-wing.

Really, that's quite of baseless statement.

I don't think it is - so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

After all you did ask in the OP:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Question is why nazism is considered far right? Is that the biggest victory of the left church yet?

I am not convinced of your conspiracy theory that the 'left church' is responsible for Nazism being classified as right-wing. It is rather their key ideological beliefs which make them so.

But thanks for sharing this fringe belief of yours that Hitler was actually left-wing.

Let me know if you manage to convince anyone not already right-wing of this belief.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Let me know if you manage to convince anyone not already right-wing of this belief.

You think people are in here to convince? I was looking for arguments why nazism is considered traditional right-wing, until now I didn't read any really. You also seem to claim to know what all left (and right) people think. In general I think you can only think in black and white, without any grey areas, but thats another issue. You are full with pre-justice. Last time I voted I voted for a party considered left-centre, that's for European standards, so for Americans that must be very left.

Interesting. I would not have assumed someone who stated a belief in a conspiracy theory by the 'left church' would call themselves left-wing. That's a a bit creepy.

But my question was about who else is convinced by the 'evidence' you gave supporting this fringe belief that the Nazis are left-wing, and that the 'left church' has convinced people that Nazism is right-wing.

However, if you weren't out to convince people that your belief is correct - I am happy to stand corrected. I have already thanked you for sharing your belief, and explained why I still am not convinced by your arguments/evidence. For me Nazis are far-right, because their key ideologies define them and all the key ideologies are right wing.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:Interesting. I would not have assumed someone who stated a belief in a conspiracy theory by the 'left church' would call themselves left-wing. That's a a bit creepy.

But my question was about who else is convinced by the 'evidence' you gave supporting this fringe belief that the Nazis are left-wing, and that the 'left church' has convinced people that Nazism is right-wing.

The Left Church are the BS talkers, more to the far left. Those are actually more fascists and have a tendency to align with Islamofascists.

Why are you constantly so obsessed with whether other people are convinced or not?

I confess I do have a fascination with fringe beliefs and those who have these beliefs.

But please clarify on the conspiracy theory about the 'left-church' - are you saying that you consider yourself left-wing, but that the 'extreme-left-wing' is what you call the 'left church', and that this 'left church' has misled the world into believing the Nazis are right wing, when you believe they are actually left wing?

For the record, I'm happy to agree to disagree with people on a range of opinions. I tend to dig in when facts are misrepresented, but when people just express their beliefs - however kooky they appear to me - I don't begrudge them these beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

Right, anything else besides trolling?

I asked for a clarification. Did you not read my post?

shafique wrote:But please clarify on the conspiracy theory about the 'left-church' - are you saying that you consider yourself left-wing, but that the 'extreme-left-wing' is what you call the 'left church', and that this 'left church' has misled the world into believing the Nazis are right wing, when you believe they are actually left wing?

Cheers,
Shafique

Ask in a normal way, and thou shall receive an answer.

Why the evasiveness? If the question is not clear, or if you don't want to answer it just say so.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:If the question is not clear

No, it was incohesive rambling.

According to Dave Renton, fascism first emerged in France in the 1880s as an intellectual movement that absorbed and synthesised socialism and nationalism and created a new ideology of "a socialism without the proletariat".

Yup.

As we can see from the graphic, fascism/Nazism fits right beside Islamism and Communism. Three peas in a pod.

shafique wrote:But please clarify on the conspiracy theory about the 'left-church' - are you saying that you consider yourself left-wing, but that the 'extreme-left-wing' is what you call the 'left church', and that this 'left church' has misled the world into believing the Nazis are right wing, when you believe they are actually left wing?

Seems quite clear to me FD.

But let me break it down for you.

Please clarify:

1. Do you consider yourself as left wing because you say you voted for a left-of-centre party in an election?

2. What you refer to as the 'left church' in your OP - how are they different from 'normal' left wing people who voted for left wing parties in elections?

3. Is it your contention that the 'left church' misled the world to believe that the Nazis are right-wing, and not left wing as you believe?

Supplementary questions:

4. How did the 'Left-church' achieve this mass deception?

5. If instead of 'Left-church' we substituted 'Xyz group' - would this not be a classic conspiracy theory?



Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:1. Do you consider yourself as left wing because you say you voted for a left-of-centre party in an election?

I think for American standards, I am pretty much on the left.

shafique wrote:2. What you refer to as the 'left church' in your OP - how are they different from 'normal' left wing people who voted for left wing parties in elections?

The left church are the left fascists.

shafique wrote:3. Is it your contention that the 'left church' misled the world to believe that the Nazis are right-wing, and not left wing as you believe?

The left (facsicts) wanted to distance themselves from fascists after the attrocities by the nazi's. Remember how Stalin cooperated with Hitler in the beginning.

shafique wrote:4 en 5

Ask normal, and I will answer.

Thanks. Your answer to No 1 was a politician's answer and did not answer the question asked. I asked whether you considered yourself left wing. Simple enough, and asked quite respectfully. Interesting that you chose to not answer this directly.

But let's overlook that for now.. Ok, let me try and rephrase 4 and 5 for your.

4. How did the 'left fascists' you describe in 3. achieve what you said in the OP:

Flying Dutchman wrote: Question is why nazism is considered far right? Is that the biggest victory of the left church yet?

The 'victory' seemingly being making Nazism considered far right.

5. If instead of 'left fascists' in 4 we had someone saying 'XYZ community' how would that postulation be any different from a conspiracy theory?


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:4. How did the 'left fascists' you describe in 3. achieve what you said in the OP

By claiming nazi are extreme right. duh.

As for the rest, you didn't ask normal, you are in the naughty corner now.

So, the 'left fascists' just declared the Nazis to be right wing and the rest of the world believed them - and this is what you call:

Flying Dutchman wrote:
biggest victory of the left church yet

Interesting belief. I think the answer to qn 5 is self-evident - your belief is no different from conspiracy theories which say other groups have similar powers to produce supposed mass deception.

Thank you.

Cheers,

Shafique

I bet you consider yourself left-wing. What makes a person left-wing?

What makes a person right wing? Sharing right wing views, such as the key ideologies of the Nazis would certainly make someone right wing, IMO.

But what a person thinks they are, is really up to that person.

I asked you whether you considered yourself left-wing, and you dodged the question. Interesting that.

I'd say that, yes, I do consider myself left-wing on the majority of issues - believing in Justice for all in all spheres of life, I believe in a strong state and state social services - but centre to right-wing on others - I do believe in capital punishment and in (truly) free enterprise.

But overall, I'd say I'm left wing.

Cheers,
Shafique

I think you misunderstood, I was asking, to see if there is any chance tofurther the discusiion, what is a left person? What does a person have to believe in in other to him/her left. I thing one thing is true about the left, advocating the strong state and social services, no different than the nazi's.

Oh, I thought you were referring to Qn 1 above which asked whether you considered yourself left-wing or not.

Well, as I stated in my views - I consider myself to be left wing despite having some elements of views which may in isolation be called right wing. Overall I'm left wing though.

I'd say the same applies to the Nazis - key ideologies are far-right (no one disputes that the list of key ideologies listed are far-right), and therefore why I think the answer to your question is NOT a 'left church' conspiracy, but rather a logical conclusion of an examination of Nazi beliefs over-all.

Each individual policy can be viewed as left, centrist or right wing - but whether a person is left-wing or right wing overall depends on the holistic view of all their beliefs. At least in my opinion. What do you think?



Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:no one disputes that the list of key ideologies listed are far-right

Liar, I remarked before that many resemble left dictatorships.

^Sorry, I couldn't find a quote from you that had the word dictatorships in it. Could you quote it again for me. Thanks.

But happy to amend the above to say that the list is clearly far-right to me and contains nothing that is leftist on it.

Key elements of the Nazi ideology

• National Socialist Program
• Racism
• Especially anti-Semitism, which eventually culminated in the Holocaust.
• The creation of a Herrenrasse (Master Race= by the Lebensborn (Fountain of Life; A department in the Third Reich)
• Anti-Slavism
• Belief in the superiority of the White, Germanic, Aryan or Nordic races.
• Euthanasia and Eugenics with respect to "Racial Hygiene"
• Anti-Marxism, Anti-Communism, Anti-Bolshevism
• The rejection of democracy, with as a consequence the ending the existence of political parties, labour unions, and free press.
• Führerprinzip (Leader Principle) /belief in the leader (Responsibility up the ranks, and authority down the ranks.)
• Strong show of local culture.
• Social Darwinism
• Defense of Blood and Soil (German: "Blut und Boden" - represented by the red and black colors in the Nazi flag)
• "Lebensraumpolitik", "Lebensraum im Osten" (The creation of more living space for Germans)
• Related to Fascism

(BTW - you can easily confirm that I have listed the COMPLETE list and not selectively edited as you guys tend to do. How many of your supposedly left wing aspects of Nazism are on this list?)



Cheers,

Shafique

Sure, you playing word games, doesn't take away you are liar.

Shaf, if you are claiming that there was/is no such thing as racism, anti-semitism, no democracy or leader worship in commi countries, you have to do some catching up to do IMO.

Thanks - but that doesn't contain 'dictator'.

And to answer the question - belatedly - yes, I do indeed consider the list to be entirely right wing IDEOLOGIES and not left wing at all. I do not consider racism and anti-semitism as left wing ideologies nor indeed leader worship for that matter.

If you have a list of left wing ideologies that list these traits, then please post it. For example wiki's entry for left-wing clearly shows that racism and anti-semitism are not part of left wing ideology - they are against this discrimination.

Can you show me any left-wing group that says anti-semitism is part of their ideology? Nazism has this as a key ideology.

Whilst some left wing parties enact right wing practices, left wing ideologies are not on the list of key Nazi ideologies.

For exmaple I don't consider Hitler to be a shining example of a democratic ruler (even though he was democratically elected) - but I do consider his key ideologies to be right wing.

Cheers,
Shafique