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Bora posted this in the Political views thread.. it deserves it's own thread:

Bora Bora wrote:I think there is a growing number of Muslims in the West (US and UK) that are falling away from having an intense belief in Islam, and therefore may really not have an opinion. I also think that there are those Muslims who believe that Islam is out of touch with the times and isn't suitable for the 21st Century and may very well be converting to Christianity, as the number of converts to Christianity (people from other faiths) has been growing over the years.

I found this link very interesting, including the links within that have been blocked in the UAE.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/muslims-le ... in-droves/

I'm sure that there are indeed many Muslims who do choose not to follow Islamic teachings and do indeed justify this by arguing that the rulings are medieval. I've met some who eat pork, for example, and argue that now pig rearing is hygienic and pig flesh can be eaten. I've met others who drink - but they just say they aren't following Islamic teachings (and don't try to justify it in theology) - just because they choose to do so.

I'm not sure that the argument that some (or even many) Muslims are lapsing their faith means that they will be converting to Christianity or other faiths. In my experience it is because these people are moving away from faith altogether.

I also believe there is an element of sour grapes in these reports - to counter all the real evidence that the religion that is gaining the most by conversions and growing in numbers overall by the most is Islam.

What do you think?

Cheers,
Shafique

I'd like to see evidence that Islam is the largest growing religion by converts. Otherwise I'd say this was a pointless thread and in the wrong forum to boot.

This thread does speak to one of the beliefs of the Norwegian Terrorist - that of an Islamic takeover, and does speak of demographics rather than theology. I think therefore it is in the right forum.

As for asking me to dig up evidence and stats - sorry, I'm not biting. If you guys want to contradict all the studies out there - go ahead.

If Muslims are indeed leaving Islam in droves in the UK and the USA - then doesn't that mean these guys are integrating and that the threat of a Muslim Invasion is even less than you thought?

Which sort of gets us back to the multi-culturalism fear of the Norwegian Terrorist - that should be covered in the other thread. Do you think that too is unfounded?

Cheers,
Shafique

You could have just said you don't have a single study that confirms the popular fantasy promoted by Muslim apologists that Islam is the fastest growing faith by conversion. And perhaps the UK is a poor example. Muslims in the UK are one of the most fundamentalist Muslim populations in the world (based on actual studies).

France is perhaps a better example. Muslims there are typically less religious than their 'coreligionists' across the channel and many lead largely secular lives.

Thanks for sharing your views. Makes for interesting reading.

Perhaps you are right - Muslim apologists have managed to con all the media into reporting that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world in general, and in the West in particular.

I think it's great that Muslim apologists have this great power.

Now, let's humour your view of the world.

Does this mean that you think the threat from multiculturalism is less because there are fewer Muslims in future than the 'Muslim apologists' have made the media report??

Cheers,
Shafique

Oh, so studies suddenly become media reports.

Ok.

I guess when something is repeated enough times it suddenly becomes true.

So much for 'facts'. You're now basing your belief on 'I don't need to show you facts, everyone knows it to be true!'.

shafique wrote:Bora posted this in the Political views thread.. it deserves it's own thread:

Bora Bora wrote:I think there is a growing number of Muslims in the West (US and UK) that are falling away from having an intense belief in Islam, and therefore may really not have an opinion. I also think that there are those Muslims who believe that Islam is out of touch with the times and isn't suitable for the 21st Century and may very well be converting to Christianity, as the number of converts to Christianity (people from other faiths) has been growing over the years.

I found this link very interesting, including the links within that have been blocked in the UAE.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/muslims-le ... in-droves/

I'm sure that there are indeed many Muslims who do choose not to follow Islamic teachings and do indeed justify this by arguing that the rulings are medieval. I've met some who eat pork, for example, and argue that now pig rearing is hygienic and pig flesh can be eaten. I've met others who drink - but they just say they aren't following Islamic teachings (and don't try to justify it in theology) - just because they choose to do so.

I'm not sure that the argument that some (or even many) Muslims are lapsing their faith means that they will be converting to Christianity or other faiths. In my experience it is because these people are moving away from faith altogether.

I also believe there is an element of sour grapes in these reports - to counter all the real evidence that the religion that is gaining the most by conversions and growing in numbers overall by the most is Islam.

What do you think?

Cheers,
Shafique

I said: I think there is a growing number of Muslims in the West (US and UK) that are falling away from having an intense belief in Islam, and therefore may really not have an opinion.

Falling away, is the same as lapsing.

Pffff... Where has our resident statistician gone? In case of "inconvinient" stat flimsy pretext about own experience with 2-3 converts, the inf. that nobody can prove or reject...

shafique wrote: I've met others who drink - but they just say they aren't following Islamic teachings (and don't try to justify it in theology)

I have met people trying to justify it, saying spirits are forbidden and not alcohol. Alcohol as such is not mentioned according to them in the Quran (if this is wrong I'll stand corrected). A word is used that is often translated as intoxicating. Some believe the word only refer to spirits.

^FD - that's a new one on me - but I guess it goes to show that there are wide interpretations. Druze, for example, were originally Muslim (a Shia sect) but now even believe in reincarnation.

Bora Bora wrote:I said: I think there is a growing number of Muslims in the West (US and UK) that are falling away from having an intense belief in Islam, and therefore may really not have an opinion.

Falling away, is the same as lapsing.

I agree that this is the same as lapsing . This 'less intense belief' manifests itself in different forms - from not praying, not fasting etc - i.e. not following the outward (and by extension, inward) actions which define what Islam is and what Muslims do.

RC - I've not mentioned any personal experiences with converts. Are you referring to another 'resident statistician'? I hope you noticed that young eh avoided the question posed:

Now, let's humour your view of the world.

Does this mean that you think the threat from multiculturalism is less because there are fewer Muslims in future than the 'Muslim apologists' have made the media report??

(And note that I said, perhaps he is right - I'd ask anyone else to provide proof their belief is right, but I've learnt Islamophobes never can produce stats for their beliefs, so it is futile. Just watch - he'll try and shift the blame on me for his belief!)

Cheers,
Shafique