Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism?

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Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 17, 2012
As pointed out in global surveys, some people do justify the killing of civilians.

In the recent assassinations of Iranian scientists, the USA and most other countries have come out strongly against these criminal acts. The US administration clearly and strongly denounced the bomb attack. It is indeed, however you look at it, hard to argue that this killing of a civilian scientist is not an act of terrorism.

As Haaretz points out, most people believe Israel had a part to pay - including Israelis. However, Haaretz makes a very good point - what happens if Iran now starts targetting scientists, and ends with the point that should make us pause :

It is entirely possible that the damage caused by the assassinations far outweigh the benefits they bring.

What if the Iranians start killing scientists?
The next phase of the assassination war is liable to turn international scientific conferences into arenas of assassination.
By Avner Cohen

Israel's official response to news of the assassination last week of Iranian nuclear scientist Mustafa Ahmadi Roshan was a deafening silence. The unofficial response was a wink. The day before, Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz, grinning slightly, spoke about "unnatural events" that were delaying Iran's nuclear program. The Israeli self-congratulation was obvious.

The Israeli public did not question the wisdom of assassinating the Iranian scientists. In Israeli culture, which sanctifies security, such questions are seen as treason. If the hit was successful - the scientist was eliminated and the assassins disappeared - you don't ask questions.


But U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton insisted on calling a spade a spade: She categorically denied all U.S. involvement in the latest assassination and even declared that the United States emphatically opposed the assassination of scientists. Her announcement was received with shock and even dismay in Israel. Where is the wisdom in making this kind of public statement, some asked; and in any event, it's hypocritical in light of the fact that President Barack Obama has killed more terrorists using unmanned aerial vehicles than his predecessors.

In order to understand the American criticism of the hits on the scientists, one must ask the questions that Israelis avoid: Do such killings do real damage to Iran's nuclear program? What could be the negative results of the assassination policy? Is it right to create a situation in which scientists (first nuclear scientists and then perhaps scientists in general and senior officials ) become pawns in a war of assassinations and counter-assassinations?

Regarding efficacy, we know that Iran's nuclear program, based in Natanz, is an enormous project employing hundreds of scientists and thousand of technicians. It is hard to imagine that taking out a single scientist, however skilled and high-ranking, could damage the entire project enough to cause a significant delay. The project has long since passed the point where the fate of any one individual could affect it.

Not only will killing individuals fail to significantly delay the project or cause its leaders to dial back their political and strategic goals, it will almost certainly have the opposite effect: It will only add to Iran's determination to carry on. And to keep their scientists from becoming demoralized, the Iranians will do everything possible to make good on their promise of revenge.

If there are assassinations on one side, it must be assumed that there will be assassination attempts on the other side too. If Iranian scientists are not immune, then neither are scientists from the countries suspected of carrying out the assassinations. While Iranian officials had previously pointedly refrained from accusing any particular country, within hours of the attack this time, the government in Tehran and the Iranian media named Israel and the United States as the responsible parties, and promised revenge.

Israel may have rejoiced at the news of the hit, but let's consider how senior members of Israel's scientific community, especially the nuclear scientists, would view the assassination of scientists on the faculties of well-known academic institutions. (Most of the senior scientists in Iran's nuclear program also have academic posts. ) They would probably have reservations about the wisdom of expanding the shadow war to the scientific community.

Anyone who legitimizes the assassination of scientists in Tehran jeopardizes the personal security of scientists on the other side. The next phase of the assassination war is liable to turn international scientific conferences into arenas of assassination.

It is entirely possible that the damage caused by the assassinations far outweigh the benefits they bring.

The writer is a professor at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies, at California's Monterey Institute of International Studies, and author of "The Worst-Kept Secret: Israel's Bargain with the Bomb."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... s-1.407511

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 17, 2012
shaf, the world has double standards and unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it!

The international law and the international human rights have said that assasintations are against the international law! Well its amazing that people who come up with the international law and human rights bullshit are the ones who can get away with anything! Why? Because they wrote the book on international laws?? OBL might have been a terroist, but surely he should have been brought to justice. Instead they assasinated him!!

Hmmm, same goes here, this nuclear scientist was assasinated and the murderers should be brought to justice! But we all know who are the murderers and the butchers of this world ;)
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 17, 2012
So what was the fault of this guy who happens to be a scientist, a husband and fathers a child and what would be the fault of a western scientist if iran strikes back in revenge...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... sfeed=true
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 17, 2012
OBL might have been a terroist, but surely he should have been brought to justice. Instead they assasinated him!!


There was no assassination order for OBL nor was he assassinated.

Re-telling a lie doesn't make the lie truer the more times it's repeated.
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 18, 2012
eh - this thread is not about whether you disagree with rudeboy over the killing of Osama bin Laden, but rather about the killing of scientists.

Do you side with the US administration that this is wrong, or do you side with those who think killing Iranian scientists is a good thing? If the latter, then what happens if Iranians start doing the same?

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Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 18, 2012
Whose scientists is Iran supposed to kill then in this hypothetical case?
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 18, 2012
I thought Cohen's points were quite clear:

If there are assassinations on one side, it must be assumed that there will be assassination attempts on the other side too. If Iranian scientists are not immune, then neither are scientists from the countries suspected of carrying out the assassinations. While Iranian officials had previously pointedly refrained from accusing any particular country, within hours of the attack this time, the government in Tehran and the Iranian media named Israel and the United States as the responsible parties, and promised revenge.

Israel may have rejoiced at the news of the hit, but let's consider how senior members of Israel's scientific community, especially the nuclear scientists, would view the assassination of scientists on the faculties of well-known academic institutions. (Most of the senior scientists in Iran's nuclear program also have academic posts. ) They would probably have reservations about the wisdom of expanding the shadow war to the scientific community.

Anyone who legitimizes the assassination of scientists in Tehran jeopardizes the personal security of scientists on the other side. The next phase of the assassination war is liable to turn international scientific conferences into arenas of assassination.


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Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 18, 2012
I don't know, it doesn't seem clear to me. The author claims with almost certainty that Israel is behind it, yet he tries to create understanding for Iran killing Israeli and US scientists. Why would Iran want to kill US scientists?
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 18, 2012
Perhaps the third time you'll read and understand what Cohen wrote:

within hours of the attack this time, the government in Tehran and the Iranian media named Israel and the United States as the responsible parties, and promised revenge.


Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 18, 2012
shafique wrote:Do you side with the US administration that this is wrong


Whose side are you on Shaf, with the US claiming this is wrong or with Iran that promises to take revenge with killing US scientists, because it thinks the US is behind it (without any proof)!?
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 18, 2012
I'm with Cohen and with the US administration - and as I stated before many times - I'm against any act of killing of civilians, and in this case I agree that the consequences may be worse than any perceived benefit (so it may work out counterproductive).

Whilst the US has denied and denounced the assassination, as Cohen points out the Israelis haven't.

The article is therefore about what if Iran makes good on it's threat to seek revenge from those it thinks carried out the attack.

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Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 18, 2012
In my eyes killing anybody for any purpose is the worst thing a human being can do, if now governments start killing people in order to gain control or power, this is even worse, and should be totaly forbidden by the Conventions of Geneve, as a matter of fact I expect that this would already be the case, so it is simply an act against humanitarian rights.
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 18, 2012
Chrismol is spot on.... I dont know who did the 9/11, i still think it was an inside job.... for argument sake we will say some "muslims" did it... 3000 odd people died that day..... How many have died after 9/11? How many have died in Iraq? How many innocent people have died in Afghanistan? What about innocent lives in Pakistan because of this war on terror? so surely there are "terroists" out there who are much bigger than OBL and AQ, and who will bring them to "justice"...... Like I sad, double standards exist in this world. Israel can do whatever it likes to do and USA and the whole world will look elsewhere, but if Syria or Iran want to have nukes, the whole world will make sure they are "sanctioned"....





By the way Israel have the nukes, JFK stood against them and well we all know what happened to him ;)
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
Rudeboy - that there are double standards is pretty clear to everyone in the world, even if the facts on how great the double standards are not widely known.

The USA, for example, is guilty of harbouring known terrorists. As posted elsewhere, we have an example of the terrorists who blew up a Cuban passenger airline and who are wanted in Cuba, but living freely with Government knowledge in the USA. If it was ok for America to bomb and invade Afghanistan for committing the same crime, then it would be justified for Cuba to bomb Miami. Except that in practice it is not - i.e. there are double standards.

In this case, it is interesting to note what the reactions of those who don't condemn (or even celebrate) the killing of the Iranian scientist to the question posed in the OP - what if the Iranians make good on their threat to revenge the killing, and target scientists in return?

The answer is too obvious. If Iran were to start killing Israeli scientists in exactly the same manner - there will be all sorts of noise about how un-civilised the Iranians are etc.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
I reckon the Iranians did it.
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
Sitting on the fence on this one, but have to say the way they did it was bloody genius! Quick, clean with minimal collaterol damage. I bet not many thought of using a motorbike with a magnetic bomb. As to whether it's ethical to kill scientists? Well I guess that depends on what they're using their educationa nd qualifications for really doesn't it. If you got a nutter who is making evil plans of mass destruction, then obviously that's debatable.
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
professorgreen wrote:I reckon the Iranians did it.


That is a possibility.
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
Chocoholic wrote: If you got a nutter who is making evil plans of mass destruction, then obviously that's debatable.


Are you referring to a specific 'mad scientist' or the Iranian father and who is also a teacher etc that was assassinated in Iran?

However the question posed by the Israeli newspaper was whether this assassination may cause more trouble than benefits - eg if Iran makes good on its promise to exact revenge against those whom pretty much everyone around the world think was involved (discounting BM's view it was Iran, of course).

I'm sure the Iranians could come up with as inventive ways of killing scientists - but they may not want to.. after all, this is terrorism, plain and simple to me.

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Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
How come you're so sure some Iranian didn't knock off the scientist? I haven't heard that anyone has admitted to it, unless you have some inside information or something?

My money is on the Iranians.
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
BM - who are you betting with? ;)

I'm going by what is reported in newspapers and reputable news sources such as the one in the OP. There's also a little thing called logic and common sense. But hey, 10/10 for imagination - perhaps the Iranians are trying out a new assassination tactic. If so, then the question asked is even more relevant - what if they now start using the same technique against who they have publically blamed (and who most others thing has a hand in it, including Israelis) - viz. Israel?

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Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
And where is the proof and logic that the US is behind?
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
You'll have to ask the Iranians for their reasoning - as the article stated, they immediately blamed the US and Israel, but since then only the US has denied involvement.

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Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
shafique wrote:but since then only the US has denied involvement.


Is that supposed to be some kind of proof? Minister Ayalon stated that Iranian allegations against Israel are "completely baseless".

I haven't seen any proof the US and/or Israel are involved. Nor have I seen any proof it was Iran. Seems to me a baseless reaction from Iran to kill people.
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
The Haaretz article was not offering or asking for proof that it was the US or Israel, rather on the logic/sense of targetting scientists.

My view is that this is simply terrorism. If the consequences of the assassination is that Iran makes good on its threat to exact revenge over who it says are behind the attacks, I would say they are as justified as those who targetted the Iranian scientists - both are as bad as each other.

What the article was pointing out was the obvious point that those who celebrate/condone/nod and wink at the killing of an Iranian scientist would have pretty the opposite view if Israeli scientists were killed in the same way. Then I'm sure there won't be the 'let's see the proof' before fingers are pointed.

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Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
Iranian government is responsible. I think if Israel or US would want to terror someone, there are much more important people who could be a target! These terrors are just symbolic and they aim to distract people from what is really going on. we don't think these "scientists" have big role in nuclear progress either. By "we" I mean Iranians.

Also in your comments please clarify if you talking about Iranians or Iranian regime.
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
Sorry Mel, I meant the Iranian regime. I really don't think the Israelis would risk going into Iran to target a scientist. it's sad that he was killed but as you say the Israelis have bigger fish to fry.
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
BM - I haven't edited any post. You're getting your threads mixed up! :roll:


Mel - interesting that you think the Iranian government is behind the assassination - that is indeed an interesting theory (and I don't have any proof either way). As I said, it does raise interesting points though - the Iranians then have developed this assassination technique, and have threatened revenge against Israel (as per the OP). So, what if they were to go through with the revenge?

Would it not be the case that those who are saying it was a good thing to blow up a scientist in Iran will be saying the opposite if happens elsewhere?

To you and me, it seems, both are terrorist acts (whoever was behind them). Have I understood you correctly?

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Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
So we have it from an Iranian that the government did it, but you, in your wisdom, still thinks it's the Israelis. I think you're obsessed. :roll:
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
Fail. I stated that both the OP and my points still apply 'whoever did the attack'.

Try and read more carefully next time. Sheesh. ;)

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Shafique
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Re: Killing Scientists - Simply Terrorism? Jan 20, 2012
Whoever did the attack? As long as they are Israeli or American.

Sheesh, get over yourself, why don't you?
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