4 Killed In West Bank

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4 killed in West Bank Sep 01, 2010
In an all-too-familiar streak, the latest cycle of violence in Palestine is the news of the shooting of 4 civilians in the West Bank.

Whilst Fatah controls this area, it is the military wing of Hamas that has taken credit for what it calls a 'targeted killing' but is nothing more than a terrorist act that has killed 4 settlers/colonists. There is certainly no excuse for killing civilians in targeted attacks or bombs etc - so those celebrating the killings are as bad as those who celebrate and condone other killings of civilians - and the cycle of killing will surely continue with more civilians being killed as a result of this killing.

The target and timing is pretty clearly aimed at the peace talks in the US - and serves to highlight the fact that on the Palestinian side, the theft of land and presence of illegal colonies on land captured in 1967 is an issue that won't be swept under the carpet of spin.

The fact the pregnant woman and three others were illegal colonists does not excuse their killing, but does explain why they were targeted. It was disheartening, but predictable, that the reactions of other colonists was to call for the blood of Palestinians in retaliation. But what is expected, as in much of the Palestinian issue, what colonists want, colonists will get. I just hope I'm wrong (this time).

Moderate Israelis are exasperated at the colonists, and moderate Palestinians are exasperated at the terrorist attacks against colonists and IDF. However, the latest cycle of violence was nothing if not predictable.


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Shafique

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Re: 4 killed in West Bank Sep 01, 2010
After the killings, this PA official gave an interview to Haaretz, I guess there is some hope in his views.. but I'm not hopeful (but would love to be proved wrong):

Israel needs to tackle core issues for us to trust its intentions, PA official says

Speaking in wake of the deadly West Bank attack, the head of the PA's U.S. mission expects settlement freeze to continue to be a decisive negotiations topic.

By Natasha Mozgovaya

The Palestinian delegation to the peace talks, already apprehensive after the United States had made it clear it would not, as the PA had wanted, condition peace talks with a continued freeze of settlement construction, grew even more timid in the wake of Tuesday's deadly West Bank shooting attack, with few officials making themselves available to the media.

A notable exception was head of the Palestinian Authority mission to Washington Maen Rashid Areikat, who expressed Palestinian pessimism coming into negotiations, telling Haaretz on Tuesday the Palestinians were entering nearing peace talks "with caution."

"A lot of work is ahead of us – and these are two critical days because it will provide us with sense where are we heading," Areikat said.

Answering to whether or not the Palestinians thought Israel genuinely sought to achieve peace in upcoming talks, Areikat said that "the more we see their willingness to discuss the core issues, rather than act on the ground in a way that undermines these negotiations – the more we will become hopeful that these negotiations will lead to some kind of results."

When asked whether the Palestinians were pressured to give up their demand to extend Israel's settlement freeze, the PA official said he wouldn't "characterize it as pressure – there is a limit on how much pressure you can exert on a party. And for us the issue of settlements is a fundamental issue, because it’s something you can see."

"Ordinary Palestinian can see the settlement activity going on the Palestinian territories, and then they wonder if the Israelis are serious about the negotiations and giving back this land for us to build our own state," Areikat told Haaretz.

"If yes, why do they build on this land? Or us this issue is critical. It will send the clearest signal about the Israelis intentions. That’s why we cannot negotiate if they continue building."

Referring to reported attempts to find a "creative formula" around the settlement freeze, the PA official said the "Americans are talking to the Israelis on this issue – the Palestinians are not part of these discussions."

"We made our position clear to the administration. We have not being fully informed about the point they reached with the Israelis on this issue," he said, adding that the Palestinians would try to make it clear to the Israelis that they could not talk the negotiations if they will continue building settlements."

"Our leadership is already under pressure, from mainstream Palestinians, from Fatah, about the wisdom of going into these negotiations," Areikat said.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.311424
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Re: 4 killed in West Bank Sep 01, 2010
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3947367,00.html

PA detains dozens of Hamas men after deadly shooting attack

Authority trying to track down terrorists behind attack that left four Israelis dead; says Hamas given green light by sponsoring countries to carry out terror attacks

Hamas' armed wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, claimed "full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron. Our men have returned safely to their bases."

"This attack is a chain in a series of attacks, some have been executed, and others will follow," spokesman Abu Ubaida said.


In the mean time the PA seems to be more worried really with Israeli's building homes than terrorists shooting pregnant women and calling it heroic.

Peace negotiations coming and radical Islamists start shooting.
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Re: 4 Killed In West Bank Sep 01, 2010
I think you meant the PA is worried about colonists stealing more land, rather than Israelis building homes. But even this doesn't make sense, when you have just quoted that the PA is taking the shooting seriously and has detained suspects. Make up your mind.

The PA has no problem with Israelis building homes in Israel, and you know that.

You really can't stop yourself spinning can you FD? Two wrongs don't make a right - the terrorist attack is inexcusable, but it is also no reason to excuse the illegal colonies either (or to make silly remarks about the PA's objections to more illegal colonies)

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Shafique
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Re: 4 Killed In West Bank Sep 01, 2010
shafique wrote:this doesn't make sense


It doesn't make any sense that the PA has problems that homes are built on ground that they claim. It doesn't make any sense that the first reaction of the PA after the terrorist attack it is Israel that has to that measures of trust.

This also doesn't make any sense:

shafique wrote:The target and timing is pretty clearly aimed at the peace talks in the US - and serves to highlight the fact that on the Palestinian side, the theft of land and presence of illegal colonies on land captured in 1967 is an issue that won't be swept under the carpet of spin.


Or at least, it shouldn't make sense.
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Re: 4 Killed In West Bank Sep 01, 2010
So your problem is that as well as rounding up suspects it pointed out that Israel's stealing of land is still a problem.

Well, I can see why you have a problem with the PA stating facts. What I object to is your spinning of the facts - the objection of the PA is not of Israelis building homes in Israel but of Israel stealing land that was captured in 1967, and then supposedly entering negotiations about this Palestinian land.

We can't ignore the fact that those killed were colonists and that they live on territory that the world accepts is not part of Israel (heck, even Israel recognises this fact). So, I repeat, silly remarks about illegal colonies being just homes is really beneath you. Have some respect for those who were killed (don't try and score silly propaganda points).

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Shafique
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Re: 4 Killed In West Bank Sep 01, 2010
shafique wrote:We can't ignore the fact that those killed were colonists


A poor attempt to somehow justify attacks against civilians.

shafique wrote:silly remarks about illegal colonies being just homes is really beneath you. Have some respect for those who were killed (don't try and score silly propaganda points).


Right on cue...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3947257,00.html

Processions of joy took place at a number of locations in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, after the shooting attack near Hebron, which left four Israelis dead
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Re: 4 Killed In West Bank Sep 01, 2010
You and your silly selective quotes and spin - this seems to be the only response you have when challenged on your spin - more spin.

Look at the very first sentence of my original post - I said the colonists were civilians. I clearly stated that the fact they were colonists does not justify their killing. I criticised those celebrating the killings.

The only one spinning this story for silly propaganda points is you - trying to portray the PAs actions (rounding up hundreds of suspects) as somehow tainted because it criticised Israel's continuing stealing of land. At least you haven't tried to spin this as a religious struggle - but rest assured JihadWatch will certainly do that.

Shame on you - 4 people died.

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Shafique
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Re: 4 killed in West Bank Sep 01, 2010
There it is again (killing being natural) :roll: :roll: :roll: :

Lawmaker Mushir al-Masri said in the speech during the march: "The heroic Hebron operation came as a natural reaction on the launch of direct negotiations, and the operation was a response to the continued coordination Israeli-Palestinian security and that this was the Qassam Brigades' and Hamas' response to stop the negotiations through this process, a message to both Benjamin Netanyahu and Ehud Barak. "


http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/09/hamas-distributes-candy-to-celebrate.html

Thousands of supporters of the Islamic resistance movement Hamas on Tuesday night participated in a massive march called for by the movement to celebrate the heroic operation carried out by the Mujahideen of al-Qassam Brigades in the occupied West Bank city of Hebron, which killed four Zionist settlers.


Shame on those Gazans!
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Re: 4 Killed In West Bank Sep 01, 2010
Indeed shame on them and also shame on you.

However, here's the actual quote from NYT (compare it with Elder's quote which links to an arabic page)
The claim of responsibility was unusual in that Hamas had refrained from taking responsibility for attacks in recent years. But with a sharp decline in rocket fire from Gaza against southern Israel, some in Gaza have been questioning Hamas’s commitment to fighting Israel.

Hamas said the attack was “a natural response to the crimes of the Israeli occupation and its settlers.” It said the killings demonstrated that the “armed Palestinian resistance is present in the West Bank despite the war to uproot it,” referring to the crackdown by Israeli and Palestinian Authority forces against Hamas in the West Bank.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/01/world ... &ref=world

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Shafique
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Re: 4 killed in West Bank Sep 01, 2010
I am not claiming the killing of a pregnant woman is highlighting or serving anything.

shafique wrote:The target and timing is pretty clearly aimed at the peace talks in the US - and serves to highlight the fact that on the Palestinian side, the theft of land and presence of illegal colonies on land captured in 1967 is an issue that won't be swept under the carpet of spin.
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Re: 4 Killed In West Bank Sep 01, 2010
There you go again, denying that you're spinning the story. The first thing you typed in this thread is a spin - as I said shame on you.

The issue of the illegal settlements is one that doesn't sit well with you, obviously - hence why you are spinning this. Compare your spin with my opening post.

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Shafique
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Re: 4 killed in West Bank Sep 01, 2010
shafique wrote:my opening post


From OP:

shafique wrote:The fact the pregnant woman and three others were illegal colonists does not excuse their killing, but does explain why they were targeted


Sound like an Ikea story. :(
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Re: 4 killed in West Bank Sep 01, 2010
Can't say I'm at all surprised to see the usual suspects blaming the victims.

In other news:

Thousands of supporters of the Islamic resistance movement Hamas on Tuesday night participated in a massive march called for by the movement to celebrate the heroic operation carried out by the Mujahideen of al-Qassam Brigades in the occupied West Bank city of Hebron, which killed four Zionist settlers.

The rally began after Taraweeh prayers, directly in front of the mosque in the camp in the northern Gaza Strip, with people chanting slogans in support of the resistance and the Qassam Brigades and slogans demanding more quality operations and to respond to the continued Zionist escalation against the holy sites and the Palestinian people.

The participants in the rally prostrated to thank God for the success of the Qassam Brigades and distributed sweets in celebration of the guerrilla operation.

Lawmaker Mushir al-Masri said in the speech during the march: "The heroic Hebron operation came as a natural reaction on the launch of direct negotiations, and the operation was a response to the continued coordination Israeli-Palestinian security and that this was the Qassam Brigades' and Hamas' response to stop the negotiations through this process, a message to both Benjamin Netanyahu and Ehud Barak. "

Al-Masri added, "At a time when Abbas and Barak were sitting in Jordan, the al-Qassam Brigades wee sitting down with the settlers, but on their own [terms]."


But they really want peace ....
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Re: 4 killed in West Bank Sep 01, 2010
event horizon wrote:But they really want peace ....


Article 13 Hamas Convenant:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.


Killing a preganant woman and three civilians however is what Islamic Resistance is:

"This is proof that the Palestinian resistance is living, breathing, and kicking," he said.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3947089,00.html

From the same article:

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum told Ynet the attack was not meant to foil direct peace talks, and said the negotiations had failed even before starting.

"This is a natural response by the Palestinian resistance to the enemy's crimes, and is proof that despite the resistance's persecution by the security services and despite Israel's crimes, the Palestinians are capable of responding to these crimes."


Natural...

Allahu Akhbar?
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Re: 4 Killed In West Bank Sep 02, 2010
Long posts can't disguise that the first thing you wrote was a spin on story of 4 people being killed, slurring the PA who had nothing to with the attack.

This cheap political propaganda is distasteful - and add to the fact it was dishonest, makes it worse. The PA does not object to Israelis building homes in Israel, but does object to the illegal stealing of land captured in 1967.

You can't spin your way out of this, my original post is quite clear that no excuses are given for the terrorist attack, nor does the terrorism justify/hide/cover-up Israel's crimes. My statement is clear - on the Palestinian side, the stealing of land, the colonies and colonists remain the main point of contention, and it is a simple statement of fact that the reason the 4 were targetted is because they were colonists. No spin, just facts.

Oh, and let's not forget that the security breakdown is not the fault of the PA - as Haaretz reminds us, the roads are not under the PA responsibility:
Netanyahu as well as the decision-makers in Washington know who controls the roads on which Tuesday's terror attack took place. The IDF is deployed along the West Bank's main roadways, and the Shin Bet watches over the details, so it's difficult to accuse the Palestinian Authority of not doing enough to prevent the attack. The PA's security apparatus detains dozens of Hamas operatives and shouldn't be punished by renewing settlement building (only partially frozen in any case ) across the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... s-1.311623

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Shafique
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Re: 4 killed in West Bank Sep 02, 2010
Hamas claims responsibility for second west bank shooting attack in two days

The attack was a message to those who pledged to the Zionist enemy that there would be no more attacks," said Hamas armed wing spokesman Abu Ubaida, referring to Abbas's U.S.-backed Palestinian Authority administration.


Mahmoud Zahar criticizes Abbas for joining negotiations, says he has no right to represent Palestinian people [agreed: inserted by poster], claims the "enemy of Palestinian people is Zionist enemy."

In an address to Hamas members, Gaza strongman Mahmoud Zahar said the movement would resist peace efforts and criticized the Palestinian president for joining the negotiations.

Zahar rejected the idea of compromise with Israel, saying that . He said Palestinians must not abandon armed resistance against Israeli occupation"liberating" all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River — a reference to Israel's destruction — is a moral and religious duty


http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186752
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Re: 4 Killed In West Bank Sep 02, 2010
Ah, as per usual, FD tells us a bit of the story... the article continues:

Despite Zahar's tough words, it's unclear whether the militants will try to derail the negotiations with more attacks or whether the shooting was an isolated incident.

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak wrote in an op-ed piece in The New York Times on Tuesday that reconciliation between Hamas and Abbas' Fatah movement is "critical to achieving a two-state solution" and renewed an offer of Egyptian mediation.

Hamas expert Khaled Hroub said the group would keep acting as a spoiler if it is not accommodated.

"You have to engage with Hamas — not because you like or dislike them," Hroub said. "Because, pragmatically these are the people who can deliver."


Can you really not make a coherent and honest argument without having to resort to selective quotes and spin?

Then again, perhaps you're just a manifestation of the anxiety that the right wing in Israel is facing at the prospect of peace and at the prospect of having to live up to International law and give up illegally annexed lands etc.

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Shafique
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