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Jerusalem Mar 23, 2010
An excellent article from Haaretz from a couple of days ago - before Netanyahu made his statements that building won't be stopped in Jerusalem.

Levy makes a very good point in the article, which resonated with me (because we've had numerous debates over whether the South Africans etc are right to use Apartheid in reference to Israel):
..
And we must not forget that this huge building project in Jerusalem is for Jews only; not one Palestinian neighborhood has been built in 43 years of occupation. Should that not be called apartheid?


However, the article is more than this - it reveals the 'truth', as Levy puts it, of Jerusalem's status:

Netanyahu did one thing right in the Jerusalem debacle
03.21.2010 | Haaretz

In the sea of (justified) mudslinging at Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, there is also room for a good word. Intentionally or not, the prime minister has revealed the lies about Jerusalem and presented things truthfully. Intentionally or not, Netanyahu has put the capital’s occupied parts that the world does not recognize in their proper place: Ramot is the same as Psagot; Neveh Yaakov is the same as Kokhav Yaakov. There is no difference between Yitzhar and French Hill. They are all settlements, including Ramot, which was built in no-man’s-land. Intentional or not, you have to appreciate Netanyahu’s move.
A revelation has come forth in Jerusalem: Most of it is a settlement. After decades in which we lied ourselves to pieces and rendered kosher that which was not - only to ourselves, not to any other country - the truth has been revealed. It has been revealed after years in which no one thought to call the residents of these giant neighborhoods settlers. Years in which Teddy Kollek, a Labor Party man and a man of peace, of course, was considered a “builder” and not the greatest of settlers. He settled more Jews in occupied areas than any settler leader. Years in which doubting the settlement enterprise was tantamount to heresy and treason. So of all people, this right-winger, Netanyahu, proponent of the Greater Land of Israel, has lifted the veil.

The work of the righteous is sometimes done by others, as the saying goes. (Let’s not forget the assistance of the Obama administration - its only real achievement so far.) From now on we will have to conduct ourselves in the neighborhoods in the occupied areas just as we do in the settlements in the occupied areas. Any additional construction will come at a heavy political cost. House demolitions in the city have already been completely stopped; we can thank Netanyahu and Obama for that, too. Those who wanted it all may now lose it all, and that’s a good thing.

How pleasant it was all those years to think that Jerusalem was ours alone. We did what we wanted, we enacted the Jerusalem Law, we annexed areas that were not ours and believed that this was enough to whitewash reality.

Now, perhaps, it’s over. Thanks to the Obama-Netanyahu team, questions will arise: What exactly is the difference between this occupation, which we never admitted to, and the occupation we have admitted to? What’s the difference between the Shoafat refugee camp and the Deheisheh refugee camp? Why is it okay to issue blue ID cards to residents of the Shoafat refugee camp and allow them relative freedom of employment, and not to the residents of Deheisheh? Why does a Palestinian from Beit Hanina not endanger security when he drives on Israeli roads and even takes off from Ben-Gurion International Airport, while his friend from Abu Dis is a ticking bomb? After all, they are the same Palestinians - in Jerusalem as in nearby Bethlehem and distant Jenin.

Why, in the framework of negotiations “without preconditions,” are eastern and northern Jerusalem not up for discussion, when every provocative act of construction on the other side of the Green Line in the capital, which has hardly expanded westward at all, is intended to create unilateral “political facts” - in other words, preconditions? And we must not forget that this huge building project in Jerusalem is for Jews only; not one Palestinian neighborhood has been built in 43 years of occupation. Should that not be called apartheid?

Even the new magic and foolish solution of the greatest master of words, President Shimon Peres, has persuaded no one: Israel, the president now tells his guests from abroad, has the right to build in “Jewish neighborhoods.” And how, Mr. President, did they become Jewish, all of them on Palestinian land, if not by massive, illegal settlement, just like in Ariel, Ma’aleh Adumim and Gush Etzion, which are now within the “consensus” we invented for ourselves? Consensus? Only in Israel. And to a great extent this consensus, too, has been fabricated.

And we have not yet said a word about “sanctity,” another reason for demands for sovereignty and settlement. Since when is sanctity a value in a secular state? What does it have to do with sovereignty? And to how many Israelis in this city, in all its new Jewish neighborhoods and old Palestinian suburbs, is it indeed sacred? And is it sacred only to us?

These are the questions. The answers may be given soon, thanks to Obama and Netanyahu.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157755.html

shafique
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Re: Jerusalem Mar 25, 2010
Well, the silence from the usual cheerleaders must mean something... let's see... hmm, no - can't put my finger on it. ;)

I was expecting at least another quote about something that happened 1500 years ago :mrgreen:
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 08, 2010
shafique wrote:Well, the silence from the usual cheerleaders must mean something... let's see... hmm, no - can't put my finger on it. ;)

I was expecting at least another quote about something that happened 1500 years ago :mrgreen:


I dislike any person who defends that bastard super racist state aka Israel which was established by brutality and massacres, specially when they say "Israel has the right to defend itself"! Thats the most lame thing I ever read in the world of politics. On the other hand, it's also super lame to see "Arab states" refuse to accept the existance of Israel as a state. You (Arabs) lost a war & got punched in the face, isn't that enough for you to accept the fact that there is a new state next to you already?? Ignoring the existance of Israel only makes it worse for the Arabs anyways. They keep on loosing and they deserve the humilation.

And today with Jerusalem's issue, I think there is nothing left to respect. In the world of true men with dignity (which is way too far from today's reality), I can only imagine a declaration of war to put a full stop to that endless mess in Jerusalem. Unfortunately, the region is full of shamless cowards who whorship their political positions.

-------
For non-Muslims/Jews ignore this part:
((Isn't it part of the religious prophecies, Shafique? Israel will rise again for the second time to the maximum it can get, only to collapse again!!)) This applys only when they attack the holy land of Jerusalem which is in process already.
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 08, 2010
God says in the Quran:

And after him We said to the Children of Israel, 'Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people."
(17:104)

This is interpreted as a prophecy that Israel will be formed in the latter days - for at the time of the revelation of the Quran, Palestine was not a Jewish state.

The formation of Israel with Ashkenazi (white/European/Western) Jews emigrating to Israel and joining the Eastern Jews there - as well as the Ethiopian, black, Jews and Indian and a smattering of Asian Jews is also seen as fulfilling the prophecy which states 'out of various people'.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 08, 2010
[quote]And we must not forget that this huge building project in Jerusalem is for Jews only; not one Palestinian neighborhood has been built in 43 years of occupation. Should that not be called apartheid?[/quote]

Why should the jews want to build any thing for the paliesGod gave the land to the JEWs so the palies should just GaFO or get over it :)
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 08, 2010
Just when you thought the trolls were under control... :wink:


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shafique
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 08, 2010
shafique wrote:God says in the Quran:

And after him We said to the Children of Israel, 'Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people."
(17:104)

This is interpreted as a prophecy that Israel will be formed in the latter days - for at the time of the revelation of the Quran, Palestine was not a Jewish state.

The formation of Israel with Ashkenazi (white/European/Western) Jews emigrating to Israel and joining the Eastern Jews there - as well as the Ethiopian, black, Jews and Indian and a smattering of Asian Jews is also seen as fulfilling the prophecy which states 'out of various people'.

Cheers,
Shafique


4- And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture, that indeed you would do mischief on the earth twice and you will become tyrants and extremely arrogant!
5- So, when the promise came for the first of the two, We sent against you slaves of Ours given to terrible warfare. They entered the very innermost parts of your homes. And it was a promise (completely) fulfilled.
6- Then We gave you once again, a return of victory over them. And We helped you with wealth and children and made you more numerous in man power.
7- (And We said): "If you do good, you do good for your ownselves, and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves." Then, when the second promise came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to make your faces sorrowful and to enter the mosque (of Jerusalem) as they had entered it before, and to destroy with utter destruction all that fell in their hands


------------------

1st Promise:
Basically it states that when they went against God, they eventually got punished when the Assyrians destroyed their kingdom and dragged them slaves to Babel. Later when they approached forgivness from God for all their sins, they got librated by the Persian king Kourosh (Cyrus), who for the sake of freedom and justice helped them, as he also supported other nation's freedom & rights.

2nd Promise:
After they were set free, some remained in Babel, others went back to Levant. The region then was captured by the Romans whom the Jews disliked & tried to rebel. The Romans eventually attacked the jews & sent them to exile. BUT this is not the second promise, because the Romans did not enter the whorship house nor it was their target.
In the verse, it states that when the 2nd promise will take place, those who will attack (the Jews) again will enter the masjed again as they did once before, this refers to the prophecy of when the Islamic conquest will take place when Omar conquered Jerusalem, and although it got liberated again with Salaheddin when the Crusaders invaded the region, but the verse clearly is talking about the Jews directly and not any other people but them. So the 2nd promise is not yet done, and here comes the verse you mentioned where God states that all Jews from everywhere in the world will gather again in Jerusalem, only then the 2nd promise will take place by the Muslims.

In other words, it also refers to the Armageddon, although each religion has its own version of it.
According to the Islamic version, it will accompany the anti-christ and prophet Jesus who will come back to earth from heaven, and later then all Muslims must follow Jesus to defeat the anti-christ & his followers, the Gogs & Magogs, and then life ends on earth, and day of judgement takes place .. Hell or Heaven!
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 08, 2010
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 08, 2010
Well to be real honest from what I know of the matter ( and I must admit I dont know much ) The british moved out and gave independance to both nations. Israel accepted what was given to it, but palestine egged on by its stupid arab neighbours ( and for their own political means ) refused and war was declared the very next day. A very short time later Israel kicked thier butts and hogged even more territory and happy days since !

Well if the dumb @sses had just shut up and accepted, there would be much less trouble today, example India and pakistan, although not perfect example but still in way better position than palestine is in today.

Although Israels acts are anything but condemnable, disgusting etc etc. But palestine is also not doing it self any favours either

And to be really really blunt and not wanting to sound rasict or stereotypical, everyone I've ever discussed the matter with has basically one thing to say. They are getting what they deserve. That this is Gods wrath upon them through Israels hands.

And to explain this a little further, and I could be very very wrong but this is just from personal experince. I've been in this country for over 3 decades now. And the majority ( I say majority, there have been exceptions aswell ) of palestenians I've met or see around here are, arrogant, egotistical, unethical, lying, cheating and sometimes even inhumane. And most others have similar views. Although I really really hate to stereotype or judge a whole nation by one or few individuals but this is just the way a lot of people feel here.

I mean for an oppressed nation which have witnessed hardships and brutality first hand you expect them to be ..uh well none of the above. How can you treat others when you cry out for help for being treated the exact same way.( ok well almost, sometimes maybe ones one wonder if they had the same free hand and power Israel has would they be any less ? )

And it is pathetic that they fight among themselves for power for a nation that they lost and in many peoples mind does not even exist. And for the dumb ass missle launcher who do nothing than kill a few thai farmers and bring the cruel brutality of Israel upon the populace.

I'm sorry right about now I couldn't care less about " palestine " The human tragedy that is on going there is truly sad but ..........!
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 08, 2010
Actually the facts are now quite well exposed, but not that well known generally. See here for a thread which 'de-mystifies' the Palestinian issue.
http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-politics-talk/demystifying-the-palestinian-issue-t25254.html

The first post was a description of facts laid out by Norman Finkelstein. Interestingly, looking back at this post from Feb 2008, the first reply was from FD who said (I quote in full and there isn't a hint that sarcasm is intended):

Yeah, heard Finkelstein speaking. He is absolutely right in my opinion. It is very simple. Question in my mind is, if Israel is willing to do this will it bring absolute peace? I still believe the majority of Israeli´s are willing to give up the occupied terrorities (inclusing east Jerusalem) if it guarantees lasting peace and stability.

Also, the one state solution does seem to get more publicity. At least more people are discussing it. Eventually this is how it will turn out I think, probably with a two state solution as a temporary solution. As long as Israel likes to see itself as a jewish state, it is inherently discriminatory.



If you scroll down you'll also see a thread entitled 'Palestine - Push for Independence' which was about diplomatic efforts by Palestinians to crystalise the simple fact that Palestine should be a sovereign nation.

In 1948, the UN voted on a partition that apportioned 55% of the land to be shared between Palestine and Israel to the Israelis and left 45% for Palestine. Jerusalem was not part of either country, but left under international/UN jurisdiction.

The debate over this partition plan was long and heated, and the facts were exposed that this initial partition was extremely unfair. The majority of the people living in the area were going to get the minority of the land - and a minority of the water, arable land/farms and existing industries. This was eloquently laid out by the Pakistani Foreign Minister of the time - Muhammad Zafrullah Khan, and I've posted his speech in full here before.

But that's history.

What is fact, is also listed in the thread 'Palestine - Push for Independence' :

1. Israel has made no concessions in the peace negotiations - it has been all the Palestinians
2. Israel broke the truce and lied about why it was bombing Gaza and killing civilians (by saying Hamas broke the truce)
3. Israel have 78% of the land and Palestinians are settling for 22% - but Israel is reluctant to settle for this and seems to want more - specfically building more illegal colonies in the 22% that is not Israel.
4. Israel is unequivocably breaking international law in East Jerusalem by annexing it.
5. B'tselem say Israel in East Jerusalem is discriminating against the non-Israeli residents.


None of these facts are contested by supporters of Israel - but rather they want to explain why Israel is justified to want more, want to be exempt from International Law or why B'tselem (or the South African Government etc) are wrong to highlight and label the discriminatory practices in the way they do.

The tactic of blaming the Palestinians despite the above facts doesn't actually hold much water. Read 'Failed States' or 'Hegemony or Survival' by Noam Chomsky and he lays out the simple facts of the matter.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 09, 2010
As much as I have my anger towards the Palestineans who stabbed us as GCC nations in the back when Saddam invaded Kuwait (in 1990) by totally supporting him and giving our Kuwaiti brothers a very hard time after Kuwait HOSTED them for more than 30 years when EVERYONE else IGNORED THEM!! Personally I dislike dealing with them as many of them are nationalist and considering myself being from non-Arab origin yet a pure Emirati with no doubts. Seeing how many of them try to insult us Emiratis for the fact that we come from different ethnicities (mainly 3 - Arab, Persian, African), thus they think of us less and try to cause hatred which is very cheap from them, thus I have full right to dislike their attitude and yes I'd rather have them all out of GCC, atleast after the 1990 issue!

YET .. This does not make me ignore their issue with Israel! I will surely support their issue untill we say no Israel anymore. I am AGAINST unjustice, even if the victim was a person I dislike his/her attitude.

Why should the Palestineans have to accept the existance of another alien state on their land? Give me ONE nation that would accept to share land & water with total aliens! Europe supported the whole idea of Israel as a new state for Jews because simply they wanted to get rid of the Jews, let's not deny the huge hatred that Europeans had towards Jews back in history and how they were treated so badly. So what? Just throw your dirt at your neighbours?? Why didnt England donated a piece of their own land to the "un-wated so badly disliked Jews" ??
Yes, I'm aware jews baught lands, but was it enough to establish a whole state with 55% of the whole land??
Don't fcuk with our nations by saying no such state as Palestine existed back then, cuz it ALWAYS existed, yet back & recently then under the Ottoman Empire. We don't need to rely on documents from the West to get accreditation. The natives & their neighbours can speak for themselves!

UN? I don't buy anything from that organization at all!
What did the UN do when the US & UK attacked Iraq and caused endless pain to the region by insulting humanity with their un-called for war?!
UN is a lobby for the strong countries with nukes, everything goes as uncle Sam wants :drunken:

War is not always a bad thing, isnt it? To liberate a country you need to carry a war, right? Isn't that what the US & UK did to Iraq? Let alone the big lie they made to pass their evil plan! Well on the other hand, stop accusing Palestineans or Lebanese for being terrorists everytime they deal with weapons against Israel.
In fact, I look forward to see a war of ethics and morals to liberate humanity's dignity from the ugly evil beast aka Israel.

<--- Racist? Anti-semitic?
I really dont give a damn about these funny terms at all. I couldn't careless who is Semite and who is Aryan!
These terms are just made by media which is simply controlled by Jews anyways to market their stupid holocaust story. They expect people to always give them sympathy for what they suffered from, yet they ALSO want from the whole world to support the holocaust they're causing to the Palestineans today!
Then you accuse us of being extremist for wanting to wipe out all jews lol .. Seriously, I want them all to be wiped out for good rather than witnessing the holocaust they're causing currently against innocents Palestineans and Lebanese people.

There will be NO peace in the middle east with the existance of ..

1) Israel: For being a bastard nation that wants to enforce its existance by drinking the blood of the innocent natives. Killing randomly with cold blood with a big smile in their faces who feels GREAT to do so, as it's a main part of their political and religious principles. It's more like "Kill to survive".

2) Nationalist Arabs: For being selfish & totally dumb! They want to Arabize anything and take neighbouring nations (Iran & Turkey) as hostile! The myth they believe in aka "The Arab World" which is basically one big kingdom that includes all of N. African, Levant, Iraq region, and totally ignoring the NATIVE non-Arab nations that already exist! That's just as ugly as the Israeli myth of the "Kingdom of Israel" !!

Conclusion:
As long as (1) and (2) exist, there will be NO PEACE in the middle east, I assure you. This is a FACT.
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 09, 2010
symmetric wrote:UN? I don't buy anything from that organization at all!
What did the UN do when the US & UK attacked Iraq and caused endless pain to the region by insulting humanity with their un-called for war?!
UN is a lobby for the strong countries with nukes, everything goes as uncle Sam wants :drunken:

UN did not support the invasion as well as cynical bombing of peacefull Serbian cities in 1999. It was a pure desision of the US and its sponger.

You certanly can buy whenever and what you want.

P.S. I did not call US as Shaitan. There is no whisper in my ears. :wink:
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 09, 2010
Red Chief wrote:P.S. I did not call US as Shaitan. There is no whisper in my ears. :wink:


No, in Moscow the 'americanisation' is more like a megaphone than a whisper - just look at the McDonalds, KFCs etc.. ;)

BTW - agree with you over the bombings by 'NATO' which didn't have UN approval. The fact that before the bombings there, the Kosovans were killing more Serbs than the other way round and that all the 'atrocities' by Serbs took place after the bombings started. The facts aren't denied in any report - but the spin remains that the bombings took place to stop Serb aggression - when in fact the bombings provoked the reactions that was then used to justify the bombings! (Chomsky brings these facts out well).

Ok - back to topic now - Jerusalem, it seems that Israel is losing the 'propaganda' war these days.

cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 09, 2010
shafique wrote:BTW - agree with you over the bombings by 'NATO' which didn't have UN approval. The fact that before the bombings there, the Kosovans were killing more Serbs than the other way round and that all the 'atrocities' by Serbs took place after the bombings started. The facts aren't denied in any report - but the spin remains that the bombings took place to stop Serb aggression - when in fact the bombings provoked the reactions that was then used to justify the bombings! (Chomsky brings these facts out well).

:shock: :shock: :shock:
I just wonder which agression you are talking about. It sounds like English agression against Yorkshire for me. Actually it was a repatriation of Albanian expats back to their fatherland only. Shafique, as far as I understand you were adult at that time. Why do you need Chomsky if it happend in front of your eyes?
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 09, 2010
I've actually made exactly the same point many times, about why I needed Chomsky to highlight the facts. The reason is that spin distorts reality.

Another current example is Darfur - most people I've spoken to think it is Muslims attacking non-Muslims, or non-Blacks attacking Blacks. The reality is that whilst the civil war between the South and North did involve mostly Muslim Sudanese against mostly Christian Sudanese - Darfur is an area where everyone is Muslim and everyone is Black - there is no difference ethnically, religiously, or linguistically - they are all Black Sudanese Muslims who all speak Arabic. The fighting is tribal and has been going on for decades - the lable 'Arab' given to one group distorts this reality.

I mention this, because there are clear parallels with the reality distortion field that is thrown out by the pro-Israel lobby. Jerusalem has been illegally annexed (I mean, not even the US recognise this illegal action), and yet the man on the street probably thinks it is the Palestinians who are in the wrong when it comes to Jerusalem.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 09, 2010
I've actually made exactly the same point many times, about why I needed Chomsky to highlight the facts. The reason is that spin distorts reality. (And note I put the word atrocities in quotations)

Another current example is Darfur - most people I've spoken to think it is Muslims attacking non-Muslims, or non-Blacks attacking Blacks. The reality is that whilst the civil war between the South and North did involve mostly Muslim Sudanese against mostly Christian Sudanese - Darfur is an area where everyone is Muslim and everyone is Black - there is no difference ethnically, religiously, or linguistically - they are all Black Sudanese Muslims who all speak Arabic. The fighting is tribal and has been going on for decades - the label 'Arab' given to one group distorts this reality.

I mention this, because there are clear parallels with the reality distortion field that is thrown out by the pro-Israel lobby. Jerusalem has been illegally annexed (I mean, not even the US recognise this illegal action), and yet the man on the street probably thinks it is the Palestinians who are in the wrong when it comes to Jerusalem.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 09, 2010
I don't know a lot about Darfur but in my view you raised a valid point - a lot of those missions, which covered by keeping peace or preventing atrocity, have actual aim to punish and neutralise dislike force in the appropriate region, Serbs for instance.
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 09, 2010
Red Chief wrote:
symmetric wrote:UN? I don't buy anything from that organization at all!
What did the UN do when the US & UK attacked Iraq and caused endless pain to the region by insulting humanity with their un-called for war?!
UN is a lobby for the strong countries with nukes, everything goes as uncle Sam wants :drunken:

UN did not support the invasion as well as cynical bombing of peacefull Serbian cities in 1999. It was a pure desision of the US and its sponger.

You certanly can buy whenever and what you want.

P.S. I did not call US as Shaitan. There is no whisper in my ears. :wink:


I know the UN did not support the US attack against Serbia. My point is, the UN is useless when it come to such matter of wars justice. It's really a mask used by the politicians in the US.
Let's face the fact, the US is under big influence of the Jewish lobby that has a deep religious dimension!

Shah of Iran mentioned that very clearly in the 70's, Jews control both economy/finance, and media. I think the combination of money and media is good enough to twist things the way they want. I know many Americans are against that lobby, but it's helpless.

The scale of power in the world is so unbalanced, the U.S almost controls everything, and it can be only interupted by few other "powerfull" countries (Russia & China), and I'm very sure if someday China wanted to increase it's political practises they will surely clash with the US and it's interests.

What would the UN then do? :shock:
Who can stop wars?
We already tried having an international police man, aka uncle Sam, yet he is only doing himself a favour and serving his own interests, even if it took him to destroy other nations & countries in the name of "democracy" and "freedom".
Uncle Sam is a smart dictator that's wearing a good suit, with a charming smile :wink:
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 09, 2010
symmetric wrote:[Uncle Sam is a smart dictator that's wearing a good suit, with a charming smile :wink:



Uncle Sam is not too smart, but powerful. He screws up a lot, but he gets what he wants!!!!


8) 8)
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 10, 2010
Tom Jones wrote:
symmetric wrote:[Uncle Sam is a smart dictator that's wearing a good suit, with a charming smile :wink:



Uncle Sam is not too smart, but powerful. He screws up a lot, but he gets what he wants!!!!


8) 8)


So true, lol :mrgreen:
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 11, 2010
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Re: Jerusalem Apr 13, 2010
As long as the powerplay exists, whether it is in the name of nationality mixed with religion or pure religious one there will not be peace.
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