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The choice is spelled out by the Israeli PM Netanyahu - between Zionism and Human rights :

Missing the forest

Does anyone actually know the meaning of the term 'Jewish state'? Wouldn't it be better to live in a just democracy?

By Gideon Levy, Haaretz

Sometimes you really can't see the forest for the trees. The forest of political, governmental and institutional racism in Israel is dark and deep. One particular tree in that forest happens to have Israelis all riled up: The state's handling of the children of migrant workers. In the shade of a nearby tree is the state's handling of these children's parents, but this excites the Israelis somewhat less. And there are many other poisonous trees in the forest: Citizenship laws, loyalty laws, conversion laws, the razing of Bedouin villages in the Negev and even the story of the Arab delivery man who was convicted of rape for pretending to be a Jew. Each one galvanized parts of society into action, and this is well and good; but few see the big picture, and the big picture is several times worse than the sum of its components.

Enlightenment came from an unexpected direction; it was Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, of all people, who accurately defined the problem. In deciding on these children's future, he said, the cabinet is torn between humanitarian considerations on one hand and Zionist considerations on the other. The prime minister of Israel himself presents them as a contradiction, and this is the story in a nutshell.


Each particular wrong must be fought, of course, but we must not forget that all comes down to one large, fundamental truth: Defining Israel as a Jewish state condemns us to living in a racist state. This is the new definition of Zionism that we have subscribed to, and until we realize that we will not be able to uproot all the wild weeds that have seeded themselves here lately. Were we to not expel the migrant workers' children but continue to raze Bedouin villages we would not solve a thing. We will continue to move from one injustice to another until we recognize the racist nature of the state.

Israel is not the only place where racism is on the rise. Europe and the United States are awash in a turbid wave of xenophobia; but in Israel, this racism is embedded in the state's most fundamental values. There is no other state whose immigration laws are blatantly and unequivocally based on the candidates' bloodlines. Jewish blood, whether authentic or dubious, is kosher. Other blood, from those of other creeds or nationalities, is unacceptable. No country throws its doors wide open to everyone, but while other states take social, economic and cultural considerations into account in Israel bloodline is the name of the game. How else are we to understand the fact that someone who was born here, who speaks the language, cherishes its values and even serves in the military, can be unceremoniously expelled while a member of the Bnei Menashe community in India or the grandson of a half-Jew from Kazakhstan are welcomed with open arms.

In contrast to what we have been told there is no significant argument in the wider world, and of course not in Israel, over the Jews' right to a state. The argument is about its character. There is also no argument about the justice of the Law of Return: Israel is the place of the Jews who want to live there. The real argument is over the law's exclusivity, over the fact that it applies only to Jews. That's where it all begins. One could understand the need after the Holocaust, the necessity in the first years of the state, but 62 years after the founding of the state the time has come to reexamine the long-obsolete concepts.

Does anyone actually know the meaning of the term "Jewish state" that we bandy about so much? Does it mean a state for Jews only? Is it not a new kind of "racial purity"? Is the "demographic threat" greater than the danger of the state's becoming a religious enthnocracy or an apartheid state? Wouldn't it be better to live in a just democracy? And how is it even possible to speak about a state being both Jewish and democratic? But anyone who tries to enter the cauldron of this debate, who tries to think outside the box of tired cliche, is automatically fated to delegitimization and slander. Just ask Avraham Burg, who last week announced his intention to set up a political party along those very lines.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... t-1.306647

shafique wrote: There is no other state whose immigration laws are blatantly and unequivocally based on the candidates' bloodlines.

For the vast majority of states immigration laws depend on blood line, be it mother or father.

shafique wrote:Does anyone actually know the meaning of the term "Jewish state"

A Christian states is a state where Christian traditions are kept, like holidays. An Islamic state is where Islamic traditions are kept. A Jewish states is a state where Jewish traditions are kept, like a holiday during Yom Kippur.

Levy is pretty clear what makes Israel racist - other states the criterion is citizenship of parents or grandparents, not race.:

but in Israel, this racism is embedded in the state's most fundamental values. There is no other state whose immigration laws are blatantly and unequivocally based on the candidates' bloodlines. Jewish blood, whether authentic or dubious, is kosher. Other blood, from those of other creeds or nationalities, is unacceptable. No country throws its doors wide open to everyone, but while other states take social, economic and cultural considerations into account in Israel bloodline is the name of the game. How else are we to understand the fact that someone who was born here, who speaks the language, cherishes its values and even serves in the military, can be unceremoniously expelled while a member of the Bnei Menashe community in India or the grandson of a half-Jew from Kazakhstan are welcomed with open arms.

Bibi says the choice is between Zionism and Human rights - and rather than address this fundamental point, there is a play on words. FD's definition of a Jewish state is valid, but Levy is asking the question in the context of the extremists in Israel advocating that its citizens should swear allegiance to a Jewish state or risk losing their citizenship. This is the racism he's opposing and the whole point of that paragraph.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bibi actually said he wants to balance humanism and Zionism. Finding a balance between humanism and nationalism. Which state that cares for human rights doesn't have that trouble with illegal immigrants?

P.S. Jews are not a race.

Are you arguing that the racist laws and attitudes are not racist?

I guess your argument is with all the Israelis and others who call a spade a spade, and (like Levy above) state the obvious.

Bibi is saying that Zionism and Humanism are not compatible - which is an enlightened admission.

Cheers,
Shafique

The quote is:

"I am balancing humanism and Zionism"

I see the argument is that countries that deny citizenship/residency for children born out of illegal immigrants are inherently racist. There are people who believe in alien shapeshifters also and there are nutters calling Holland an apartheid state. There are of course also the anti-semitis, they fall in the same category.

Still wonder who somebody who is a member of the "jewish race" can be recognized. The big nose maybe?

Everybody can become a jew, so it is certainly not a race.

As I said, your argument is with the Israelis who clearly object to the racism inherent in the Israeli practices. It is funny that you seem to be in denial over this point.

As for Bibi - he is indeed balancing two conflicting issues - Zionism and humanism. That's the whole point. The two are not compatible - that is why he has to balance, less of one for more of another.

Indeed, perhaps you should ask yourself what Levy is referring to when he titled the article 'Missing the Forest'?

Holocaust survivors and Elie Wiesel are both strongly criticising Israel over the decision to deport the 400 children of migrant workers.

Cheers,
Shafique

FD - tell me what you disagree with Levy's assessment here:

but we must not forget that all comes down to one large, fundamental truth: Defining Israel as a Jewish state condemns us to living in a racist state. This is the new definition of Zionism that we have subscribed to, and until we realize that we will not be able to uproot all the wild weeds that have seeded themselves here lately. Were we to not expel the migrant workers' children but continue to raze Bedouin villages we would not solve a thing. We will continue to move from one injustice to another until we recognize the racist nature of the state.

Are you really maintaining that you think Israel is not racist?

As one comment made to Levy's article on Haaretz puts it:

If by Jewish state one meant a state in which key Jewish values such as ethical treatment of all, impartial justice, free thought etc were made paramount, and that the state supported Jewish life by recognizing certain holidays (as is done in Europe and America), perhaps subsidizing religious schools, making life in keeping with Jewish life easier to follow etc then many would not object to that, as long as all the citizens of Israel are equal before the law and in housing employment and education with no discrimination. But if Jewish state means a state that considers only Jews to be real first class citizens, and who sees as its purpose the promotion of Jews as an ethnic group at the expense of non-Jews, which is the current Israeli reality, then this has no future.

The current reality is that Israel has racist policies that it implements day to day to discriminate against non-Jews.


Cheers,
Shafique

As long as Levy can write his articles, there is nothing wrong with FoS in Israel. According to Qadiani sect leader Ouda, they can freely practice their religion in Israel, but according to Ouda, Qadianis are presecuted in areas under Palestinian control, both on Westbank ans Gaza and have to fear for their lives.

I agree that Israel's racism and inhumanity is indeed exposed by the courageous Israeli journalists and humanitarians - such as the good folk at B'tselem.

Not sure why you're not joining them in condemning the racism etc rather than trying to redefine words and invent stats relating to anti-semitism etc.

It is the loons who like to paint all their opponents with the same brush - the anti-loons go out of the way to not stereotype every Israeli or Jew, but denounce the practices of those who choose to reject humanitarianism.

Cheers,
shafique

Israel gives temporary refugee to hundreds of Sudanese (Christian an Muslims) while Egypt kills them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee#African_refugees_in_Israel

Israel also took in Vietnam boot refugees.

At almost every natural disaster in the world, Israel is one of the first to offer help.

I was wondering how long the loons could go without resorting to 'what aboutery'. Not very long it seems!!

You must be hurting so bad because of Bibi's honesty on this point.


Cheers
Shafique