Insoluble? I Don't Think So.

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Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 18, 2011
In this short editorial from Israeli newspaper Haaretz, the recent declaration of Netanyahu in Italy that the military occupation of Palestine by Israel is 'insoluble' is addressed. Directly. Without spin.

The chance of resolving the conflict lies in pragmatic arrangements to divide the land, which would lead to a new relationship between the two countries, Israel and Palestine. But Netanyahu is evading the task of building the future, which will inevitably require Israel to withdraw from the territories, evacuate settlements and divide Jerusalem. He prefers to entrench himself behind a pointless, hopeless argument about the past and demands that the Palestinian narrative be rewritten.

This is almost 'stating the obvious' - and is one of the best summaries of the situation I've read.

The full editorial is well worth reading:

Netanyahu is dooming Israel to live eternally by the sword

By declaring the conflict insoluble, Netanyahu is leaving no opening for reconciliation and understanding with the Palestinians and the Arab and Muslim world.

Haaretz Editorial


Author Etgar Keret, on assignment from Haaretz, accompanied the prime minister on his trip to Italy this week and reported on Benjamin Netanyahu's perceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"This is an insoluble conflict because it is not about territory," Netanyahu said. "It is not that you can give up a kilometer more and solve it. The root of the conflict is in an entirely different place. Until Abu Mazen [Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas] recognizes Israel as a Jewish state, there will be no way to reach an agreement."


On Wednesday, Netanyahu reiterated this position in the Knesset. "The reason for the conflict, and for its continuation, is the refusal to recognize the Jewish people's nation-state in any borders," he said.

By declaring the conflict insoluble, Netanyahu is dooming Israel to live eternally by the sword, leaving no opening for reconciliation and understanding with the Palestinians and the Arab and Muslim world. Opposition leader Tzipi Livni was thus right to attack Netanyahu in the Knesset for burying the prospect of a peace deal and of normal life in Israel. She was also right to insist that the conflict can be solved if Israel makes "tough decisions."

The practical conclusion Netanyahu derives from his pessimistic evaluation of the situation is even more disturbing. Netanyahu demands that the Palestinians renounce their national ethos and recognize Israel as "the nation-state of the Jewish people." He demands that Abbas commit himself to saying that a Jew in Brooklyn or London has more right to this country than an Arab citizen of Tel Aviv, Jerusalem or Haifa - and thereby essentially acknowledge that the Palestinians are foreign invaders in the Jewish people's state. Neither Abbas nor any other Palestinian leader could accept this diktat.

The chance of resolving the conflict lies in pragmatic arrangements to divide the land, which would lead to a new relationship between the two countries, Israel and Palestine. But Netanyahu is evading the task of building the future, which will inevitably require Israel to withdraw from the territories, evacuate settlements and divide Jerusalem. He prefers to entrench himself behind a pointless, hopeless argument about the past and demands that the Palestinian narrative be rewritten.

Netanyahu wants to debate with the Palestinians, not to compromise with them. There is no surer recipe for turning his claim that the conflict is insoluble into a self-fulfilling prophecy, and for driving the Palestinians into a third intifada.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... d-1.368163

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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 18, 2011
Netanyahu is a strong leader. he has my utmost respect. he is doing what he thinks is best for his country.
Big up the Israelis.
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 18, 2011
Bethsmum wrote:Netanyahu is a strong leader. he has my utmost respect. he is doing what he thinks is best for his country.
.

agree :D , yesterday I was in a chat with old uncles 70+ and some others, was talking about everything in the region, and when Israel name came over, told them if I am Israeli what a better government I will be hoping for :idea: .... but will things last forever as they wish :!:
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 18, 2011
Mahmoud04 wrote:
Bethsmum wrote:Netanyahu is a strong leader. he has my utmost respect. he is doing what he thinks is best for his country.
.

agree :D , yesterday I was in a chat with old uncles 70+ and some others, was talking about everything in the region, and when Israel name came over, told them if I am Israeli what a better government I will be hoping for :idea: .... but will things last forever as they wish :!:


Mahmoud, I think the Israelis would wish for peace. The only thing stopping it is that people won't allow them to live peacefully.
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 18, 2011
Rhetoric...is so 90's
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 18, 2011
Antisemitism...is so obscene
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 18, 2011
Yes linking an article published in an Israeli newpaper written by Israelis is so antisemitic

:roll:

Like I said, same old rethoric equals to lame.
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 18, 2011
desertdudeshj wrote:Yes linking an article published in an Israeli newpaper written by Israelis is so antisemitic

:roll:

Like I said, same old rethoric equals to lame.


Funny how silly old Shafique comes out with the same shite all the time isn't it munchkin....soooo predictable....yawn!
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 18, 2011
Bethsmum wrote:
Mahmoud04 wrote:
Bethsmum wrote:Netanyahu is a strong leader. he has my utmost respect. he is doing what he thinks is best for his country.
.

agree :D , yesterday I was in a chat with old uncles 70+ and some others, was talking about everything in the region, and when Israel name came over, told them if I am Israeli what a better government I will be hoping for :idea: .... but will things last forever as they wish :!:


Mahmoud, I think the Israelis would wish for peace. The only thing stopping it is that people won't allow them to live peacefully.


It takes 2 BM. Not only does Netty want Palestine for Israel, but he wants Palestinians to have a certain thought process such as admitting that a Jew from Brooklyn or the UK - who never put his foot on Israeli soil, has more right to the land than an Arab who lives there as did generations before him. That's just totally absurd. On top of it he wants Palestinians to drop their "national ethos" - how do you force someone to think a certain way? It's like telling someone who uses their left hand to write that as of tomorrow you will use your right hand and if you dare to use your left hand, we will cut it off.

It seems to me that Netty has lost the plot and it's more about Israel's recognition and Palestinian submission than peace. When Netty addressed the US Congress I had said that he was painting Israel into a corner and this article confirms that. Anything Israel stood to gain over the last few years will be lost - and returned to Palestine. Stay tuned to September when Palestine seeks international recognition. The Middle East is changing and if I was Israel I would certainly think what the effect of future change will have on it if they continue to take the position that they have been taking. It is bound to change and not work in Israel's favor. Israel is already feeling it from Egypt.
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 18, 2011
When Netty addressed the US Congress I had said that he was painting Israel into a corner and this article confirms that


Well the US Congress seemed to like him Bora! Remind me again, who many standing ovations did Netty get?
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 18, 2011
Bora Bora wrote:Not only does Netty want Palestine for Israel, but he wants Palestinians to have a certain thought process such as admitting that a Jew from Brooklyn or the UK - who never put his foot on Israeli soil, has more right to the land than an Arab who lives there as did generations before him. That's just totally absurd.


Not a big fan of Netanyahu, but he is right that Arabs and Palestinians should recognize that Jews are natives. They should recognize that Israel as a Jewish state is here to stay. That means no full right of return. Saying viewing Jews not as natives is absurd, is exactly what Netanyahu is saying is an obstacle for peace. The last years Pali's are very busy denying Jewish history in the region with absurd claims. Almost every holy Jewish site is being claimed as a holy Muslim site all of a sudden. They are trying to deny Jewish history of Jerusalem and the strong Jewish ties with Jerusalem.
The IPC is a conflict of two narratives, with one truth. And that truth is that Arabs rejected the partition plan.

Bora Bora wrote:On top of it he wants Palestinians to drop their "national ethos"


The Palestinian national ethos is the existence of the Jewish state called Israel.
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 19, 2011
Bethsmum wrote:
When Netty addressed the US Congress I had said that he was painting Israel into a corner and this article confirms that


Well the US Congress seemed to like him Bora! Remind me again, who many standing ovations did Netty get?


Something like 30 BM. Everything is relative. In this case it's about votes, not about liking or agreeing. Governments/politicians shift like the wind. They go in the direction that they think will serve them best. Also need to remember: one day friends and in bed together, next day raising guns at each other, and that's politics for ya!!!! Seriously, how do you think Israel would fare if it did not have US backing??

@ FD:
The last years Pali's are very busy denying Jewish history in the region with absurd claims. Almost every holy Jewish site is being claimed as a holy Muslim site all of a sudden. They are trying to deny Jewish history of Jerusalem and the strong Jewish ties with Jerusalem.


Where are those holy Jewish sites located FD? on Palestinian land? How many mosques were destroyed by Israel when they illegally "claimed" Palestinian land?

As for saying that the Jew in Brooklyn or the UK who has never been to Israel, nor his/her parents or grandparents has the right to Israel is like saying that because I have Irish heritage I'm entitled to Ireland and can "claim" Ireland as my "homeland.

Why is it that the trouble in Israel and Palestine is so one-sided? It's either Palestine's fault or Israel's fault as to why there is no peace. I see it to be the fault of both. I also see Palestine being the underdog. Israel keeps pushing the borders and widening what they "believe" are their rights, which is Palestinian land. It seems to me that Israel will not make any concessions for peace but puts the burden of not reaching peace on the Palestinians. What is it that Israel is willing to concede for peace? So far, in my view, it's absolutely nothing.
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 19, 2011
Bora Bora wrote:Where are those holy Jewish sites located FD?


Jerusalem for example. Jewish ties to Jerusalem are constantly denied with absurd claims for example that the Western Wall only became important to Jews after the Balfour declaration. See what happened to Rachel's tomb, its called since the 1990s a mosque. Muslims and Arabs are inventing history so to deny 3000 years of Jewish history.

Bora Bora wrote:on Palestinian land?


What is Palestinian and since when is it Palestinian? And even if Rachel's tomb is on Palestinian land. So what? Its still part of Jewish history/legacy/culture.

Bora Bora wrote: How many mosques were destroyed by Israel when they illegally "claimed" Palestinian land?


I remember a newly built mosque destroyed in the Negev (but I am not sure whether you consider that Pali land) due to having no building permit. What else? I believe Israeli settlers have set fire to a mosque in the disputed territories, which is not condoned by the Israeli government. Thats it AFAIK. I do think however Israel had every historical right to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque, instead it gave it to a waqf.

Bora Bora wrote:As for saying that the Jew in Brooklyn or the UK who has never been to Israel, nor his/her parents or grandparents has the right to Israel is like saying that because I have Irish heritage I'm entitled to Ireland and can "claim" Ireland as my "homeland.


That depends on the policies of the country of origin (the homeland).
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 19, 2011
[Flying Dutchman"]What is Palestinian and since when is it Palestinian? And even if Rachel's tomb is on Palestinian land. So what? Its still part of Jewish history/legacy/culture.


If you did a little reading on the other side you might know what it means to be Palestinian. Why should Palestinians have tributes to Jews on their land? I gather you are of the mind set that all land claimed to be Palestine belongs to Israel, is that correct? That Arabs have no right to be there and should be driven into the sea or exterminated.

Bora Bora wrote:As for saying that the Jew in Brooklyn or the UK who has never been to Israel, nor his/her parents or grandparents has the right to Israel is like saying that because I have Irish heritage I'm entitled to Ireland and can "claim" Ireland as my "homeland.

That depends on the policies of the country of origin (the homeland).


Please tell me what countires have such a policy that anyone who is ethnically related to another country can claim rights to their generational country of origin? I have a bit of Dutch heritage, that should entitle me to land in the Netherlands :o Oh, I'm going to have to get my heritage sorted out, I see me laying claim in several countries!!!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 19, 2011
^^^
This problem arises when Jews start seeing the torah as a valid and legal land deed.
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 19, 2011
Bora Bora wrote: If you did a little reading on the other side you might know what it means to be Palestinian.


The PLO, the legal international representative, only considered the Westbank and Gaza as Palestinian after 1967.

The first head of the PLO, Ahmed Shukeiry, had this to say about it:

It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing more than southern Syria


Another previous PLO hot shot, Zuheir Muhsin:

Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only practical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel ...


Bora Bora wrote: Why should Palestinians have tributes to Jews on their land?


For the same reason Israel honours and protects religious sects like the Bahai and Ahmadi's that are prosecuted and harassed in most of the ME. Muslim and Christian sites are protected by the Israeli state.

Bora Bora wrote:I gather you are of the mind set that all land claimed to be Palestine belongs to Israel


Strangely enough, thoughout history, land that is claimed to be Palestinian changed according to Israeli borders/lines. See my first remark in this post. So I first need a working definition of what is considered to be Palestinian land to be able to answer that question.

Bora Bora wrote:Please tell me what countires have such a policy that anyone who is ethnically related to another country can claim rights to their generational country of origin?


Germany and Finland I believe.

-- Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:46 pm --

desertdudeshj wrote:^^^
This problem arises when Jews start seeing the torah as a valid and legal land deed.


Zionism started as a secular movement.
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 19, 2011
Yes somewhere in the 19th century by Ashkenazi Jews because of antisemtism in EUROPE, so ?
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 19, 2011
Whilst the history is fascinating, the issue is that the Israeli Military Occupation of Palestine since 1967 is one that cannot continue indefinitely.

War crimes were committed straight after Israel captured East Jerusalem - they cleared over 100 houses in the Maghreb quarter and evicted those living there. No one disputes this is in violation of the Geneva Conventions etc in terms of what an occupying military power can do. But the Palestinian side is willing to look past this and other violations.

Bora rightly asked whether the Israeli side had made any concessions. Well, the simple answer is - No. They have made absolutely no concessions since the military occupation began - but the other side has compromised on many issues, and willing to compromise more. Israel has only begrudgingly complied with small parts of its international obligation (eg pulling out of Gaza, but retaining full effective control over Gaza's borders - and not to mention the collective punishment of the siege).

All that is factual. However, the Haaretz editorial did a great job summarising the issue - and the majority of the world, and many Israelis, see this plainly. Those with an alternative narrative are in a minority - and their influence is diminishing by the week.

Expect to see more and more smear campaigns in the run up to Septembers vote in the UN.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 19, 2011
"Flying Dutchman"]

The PLO, the legal international representative, only considered the Westbank and Gaza as Palestinian after 1967.

The first head of the PLO, Ahmed Shukeiry, had this to say about it:

It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing more than southern Syria

A statement made in 1967??

Another previous PLO hot shot, Zuheir Muhsin:

Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only practical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel ...


"continuing battle against Israel" says it all. Safe to assume that was back in 1967, in the earlier days. I doubt they would see it that way today.

["Bora Bora"] Why should Palestinians have tributes to Jews on their land?


For the same reason Israel honours and protects religious sects like the Bahai and Ahmadi's that are prosecuted and harassed in most of the ME. Muslim and Christian sites are protected by the Israeli state. [/quote]

What exactly does Israel do to protect the Bahai (founded in Iran) and Ahmadiyya (founded in India)?

["Bora Bora"]I gather you are of the mind set that all land claimed to be Palestine belongs to Israel.

Strangely enough, thoughout history, land that is claimed to be Palestinian changed according to Israeli borders/lines. See my first remark in this post. So I first need a working definition of what is considered to be Palestinian land to be able to answer that question.


Those borders and lines that are the creation of Israel? A working definition and not a map?? Obama wanted to start peace negotiations between Palestine and Israel going back to the pre-1967 borders before the Six Day War as a starting point. Now, that is only a starting point and if both sides can make concessions, give and take, definite borders can be drawn. We know the results of Obama's proposal - Israel won't go to the table. Even if Palestine conceded and acknowledged Israel's existence, Israel will never go to the table because Israel will never return Palestinian land that they claimed illegally in addition to letting go of the control it has on Palestine.

["Bora Bora"]Please tell me what countires have such a policy that anyone who is ethnically related to another country can claim rights to their generational country of origin?

Germany and Finland I believe.


"I believe" doesn't count. :alien:

No one can deny that if Palestine is recognized in September it is going to have an impact on Israel, and not a favorable one.
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 20, 2011
Bora Bora wrote:What exactly does Israel do to protect the Bahai (founded in Iran) and Ahmadiyya (founded in India)?


Israel hosts the Bahai centre in Haifa. Also a large Ahmaddi mosque is in Haifa. I believe, yes I believe, there is no Ahmaddi mosque in the Arab world, but I am very interested in whether my believe is true or not. If not the wiki page should change:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ahmadiyya_Muslim_Community_buildings_and_structures

Bora Bora wrote:Those borders and lines that are the creation of Israel? A working definition and not a map?? Obama wanted to start peace negotiations between Palestine and Israel going back to the pre-1967 borders before the Six Day War as a starting point. Now, that is only a starting point and if both sides can make concessions, give and take, definite borders can be drawn.


OK, so the Westbank and Gaza are considered Palestinian land, I agree for a large part that this should be the core of a to be established Palestinian state.

Bora Bora wrote:"I believe" doesn't count. :alien:


The Finnish Aliens Act provides for persons who are of Finnish origin to receive permanent residence. It is usually Ingrian Finns from the former Soviet Union who exercise this right, but American, Canadian or Swedish nationals with Finnish ancestry are eligible.

German law allows persons of German descent living in Eastern Europe (Aussiedler/Spätaussiedler ("late emigrants"; de:Aussiedler), see History of German settlement in Eastern Europe) to return to Germany and claim German citizenship


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

It also seems that a right of return based on ethnicity is applied in many countries. And why should we not respect the laws of a country?
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 20, 2011
Goes back to one or two generations at the most, not 3000 years, specially considering there was no "israel" that many generations ago nor many nor their ancestors, ancestors came with in a thousand miles of the middle east.
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 20, 2011
Recognizing this situation, Greece grants citizenship to broad categories of people of ethnic Greek ancestry who are members of the Greek diaspora, including individuals and families whose ancestors have been resident in diaspora communities outside the modern state of Greece for centuries or millennia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 20, 2011
But there always was a Greece, you can't belong to a country if it didn't exist.
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 20, 2011
GREAT opinions, lovely to read :) ....
apart from the history which seems each of us like the version he/she has of it, shall we predict a bit about future! who has expectations?
note before you think go back 1 year and tell me, could anyone ever expect what happened in 2011 so far? and if yes what's the %?

by the way BM, if Israeli wants peace that much, why did they started war from the begging? and why do they insist on building on Palestinian lands now? they are expanding aren't they?
and then ppl say ooo sorry we can't go back to 1967 things changed, wow... I love Saddat that he kicked them out of Sinai in 6 years...
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 20, 2011
I agree Mahmoud - very interesting.

I love the way the pro-Israeli side likes to try and throw up smoke and mirror defences to the clear violation of international laws etc.

Does anyone buy the 'two wrongs make a right' or 'Mussolini made the trains run on time' arguments? Really?

Look beyond the smoke and mirrors and you are left with the highlighted passage in the Haaretz editorial - that states clearly what the situation now is. Wishful thinking about the past or what the laws should be etc won't change this.

But don't let me stop you guys - it is fascinating to see the discussions develop.


Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 20, 2011
desertdudeshj wrote:But there always was a Greece, you can't belong to a country if it didn't exist.


Interesting, when are you going to apply the same logic to the Palestinians? Or did I miss the time when Palestine was an independent nation-state?
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Re: Insoluble? I Don't Think So. Jun 20, 2011
desertdudeshj wrote:But there always was a Greece, you can't belong to a country if it didn't exist.


Yes, Pali's think different. Also freed black American slaves thought different about Liberia.
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 20, 2011
War crimes were committed straight after Israel captured East Jerusalem - they cleared over 100 houses in the Maghreb quarter and evicted those living there.


Those 'war crimes' pale into insignificance compared to the crimes muslim leaders are inflicting on their own people today.

The Israelis and indeed, the whole world, is sitting back and watching the muslims give a master class in war crimes.
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 20, 2011
'whatabout-ery' arguments are particularly weak:
dubai-politics-talk/what-about-ery-t42765.html


The number of them in this thread suggests that the Haaretz quote hit a nerve.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Insoluble? I don't think so. Jun 20, 2011
Bethsmum wrote:
War crimes were committed straight after Israel captured East Jerusalem - they cleared over 100 houses in the Maghreb quarter and evicted those living there.


Those 'war crimes' pale into insignificance compared to the crimes muslim leaders are inflicting on their own people today.

The Israelis and indeed, the whole world, is sitting back and watching the muslims give a master class in war crimes.


A golden rule in ME politics: everything Arabs/Muslims accuse Israel of, they did themselves at least 10x worse.
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