How To Spot An Islamophobe

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How to spot an Islamophobe May 15, 2010
Now, now - don't jump to the most obvious answer! ;)

This is an article which draws upon a Gallup survey and Carroll argues/concludes that :

"The Gallup poll showing a link between anti-Semitism and Islamophobia is a clear indication that profoundly irrational forces are at work.
...
The Gallup survey suggests how Americans must guard against blanket stereotyping of Muslims, the vast majority of whom are as appalled by jihadist attacks as anyone.
...
Hatred of Muslims and hatred of Jews amount to one story.
"



How to Spot an Islamophobe
by James Carroll
January 30, 2010

A major poll probing American prejudices toward Islam show that the best way to find out if a person hates Muslims is to find out if he also hates Jews.

The Gallup World Religion Survey has published the results of a new poll about American prejudices toward Islam. The largest finding is unsurprising: “A slight majority of Americans (53 percent) say their opinion of the faith is either ‘not too favorable’ (22 percent) or ‘not favorable at all’ (31 percent).” Americans experience themselves as under multi-continent deadly attack from groups identified with Islam, and many attackers claim their religion as a motivating factor. That nearly half of the Americans polled report no negative feelings toward Islam might be counted as a show of tolerance. Muslims are wildly misperceived and unfairly judged, but Americans are at war, and afraid.

The Crusades, unfolding across most of three centuries just as European culture jelled, set the twin hatred of Muslim and Jew into its DNA.

But one finding of the survey seems profoundly counter-intuitive, and deeply troubling. The single most powerful predictor of “a great deal” of prejudice toward Muslims is equivalent negative bias toward Jews. In fact, contempt for Jews makes a person “about 32 times as likely to report the same level of prejudice toward Muslims.” Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are halves of the same walnut. That is surprising because Jews and Muslims are widely perceived–and often perceive themselves–as antagonists occupying opposite poles in the great contemporary clash of cultures. The word “Jew” is an all-purpose jihadist slur, and Jews who rank Israel near the top of their concerns have cause–Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah–to equate mortal threat with the religion such groups loudly proclaim. On the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, people who hate Muslims should love Jews, and vice versa. Apparently not so.

But this finding, in fact, squares with history–and with the deep structure of Western Civilization’s double-barreled paranoia. Hatred of an “enemy outside” is often matched by hatred of an “enemy inside,” and the generating instance of this was the Crusades. Recall that the 11th-century “war of the cross” was Christian Europe’s great striking back against the infidel enemy that had occupied the Holy Land since Muhammad’s armies overran it within a generation of his death in the 8th century. The attack against the Muslim infidel far away began, in the spring of 1096, with Crusader attacks against Jews living along the Rhine River–“infidels near at hand.” Until then, Jews had lived in peace in Europe, and their communities had thrived. Indeed, the Crusader attacks on Jews in Cologne, Mainz, Worms, and Trier in April and May of that year were Europe’s first pogroms. Thousands of Jews died. Jews in Europe were not attacked until Muslims were attacked outside Europe. The Crusades, unfolding across most of three centuries just as European culture jelled, set the twin hatred of Muslim and Jew into its DNA. Every time the one was perceived as threatening, so was the other.

The Jew became Europe’s paradigmatic “enemy within,” a status that was most demonically exploited by Hitler. But this dynamic–fear of the enemy outside sparking fear of the enemy inside–can be seen broadly at work, even in America, where Jews have more securely established themselves than anywhere. During the Great Depression, it was anarchists abroad and Jewish “financiers” at home (think Father Coughlin). During the Red Scare, it was Moscow abroad and Jewish “security risks” at home (think the Rosenbergs, Oppenheimer).

Today, when populist anger seethes against mythical “bankers,” it would be prudent to have an ear out for anti-Jewish undertones of such rage, if only because we have been here and done this before.
The Gallup poll showing a link between anti-Semitism and Islamophobia is a clear indication that profoundly irrational forces are at work. The United States has been deeply unsettled by its war on terrorism. There are good reasons to dread horrific attacks (see Wednesday’s report on U.S. vulnerability to biological weapons). But exaggerated fears can fuel themselves, and the dynamic of prejudice can be a riptide. The Gallup survey suggests how Americans must guard against blanket stereotyping of Muslims, the vast majority of whom are as appalled by jihadist attacks as anyone. But it also sounds a warning of an unseen current that has run below the surface of Western culture for a millennium.

Hatred of Muslims and hatred of Jews amount to one story. It is not over.

James Carroll's recent book is Practicing Catholic, a story of American belief. He is a columnist for the Boston Globe and Distinguished-Scholar-in-Residence at Suffolk University. His other books include An American Requiem, which won the National Book Award, House of War, winner of the PEN-Galbraith Award, and Constantine's Sword, now an acclaimed documentary.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-01-30/how-to-spot-an-islamaphobe/?obref=obinsite

shafique
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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 15, 2010
Interesting.

S'funny how no-one seems to have any prejudice against the Buddhist religion?

Except maybe the Chinese government?

:shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 15, 2010
Good point DK - but there's also some violent elements in Buddhism - in 1997 3 monks were murdered in the Dalai Lama's compound in India over a dispute over whether a certain god/spirit (Dorje Shugden) should be worshipped (the Dalai Lama had pronounced that this worship should stop - the dissident monks objected and murdered 3 fellow monks).

http://buddhism.about.com/od/vajrayanab ... hugden.htm
According to Mike Wilson, cited above, Shugden devotees are most likely responsible for the ritualistic murders of three anti-Shugden clerics in Dharamsala in 1997. At the same time, the Shugden sect perpetually complains that it is the victim of religious discrimination, because the Dalai Lama does not permit observance of Shugden devotion.

The answer for the Shugden followers is obvious -- declare independence from all Tibetan Buddhist institutions and start your own sect. There is probably some reason why this isn't an acceptable solution for them, but I don't know what that reason would be.

Conclusion

Shugden followers will complain that this article presents a one-sided view. Well, yes, it does, and that one side is that Buddhism is not a spirit worship religion. At a time when Buddhism is still being introduced to the West, it is damaging to all schools of Buddhism to be confused with spirit worship.


So, some prejudice within the Buddhist community - but totally agree that its nowhere near the levels shown in the Gallup survey above iro Judaism and Islam.

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Shafique
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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 15, 2010
Good point DK - but there's also some violent elements in Buddhism


Really? How does that show that there are violent elements within Buddhism?

Was Buddha a violent man?

Do the texts and teachings of Buddhism call for warfare against non-Buddhists?

Is Buddhism a static, reactionary, and legalistic religion which seeks to impose itself over all other religions and man made laws?

I could go on, but I think you get the point.
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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 15, 2010
When Buddhist monks kill other Buddhist monks over a difference in Buddhist theology - I'd call that 'violent elements in Buddhism'.

What would you call it?

I agree it is as anomolous as followers of a Prophet who said 'turn the other cheek' and yet slaughtered communities of Jews as an act of religious piety - but all goes to show that even an essentially pacifist theology of Buddhism throws up its own nutters who kill in the name of religion.

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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 15, 2010
shafique wrote:When Buddhist monks kill other Buddhist monks over a difference in Buddhist theology - I'd call that 'violent elements in Buddhism'.

What would you call it?

I agree it is as anomolous as followers of a Prophet who said 'turn the other cheek' and yet slaughtered communities of Jews as an act of religious piety - but all goes to show that even an essentially pacifist theology of Buddhism throws up its own nutters who kill in the name of religion.

Cheers,
Shafique


The conflict was internal amongst Buddhists.

All religions have their extremists (Branch Davidians, Thuggis, Al Qaeda) who seem to think that violent action is the only course. However my question is one of expansionism.

Many fanatical religious devotees see it as their duty to convert as many people to their way of thinking (eg. Missionaries in South American and Africa) however Buddhism seems to be the only one that does not actively recruit.

Maybe the fight for the soul is harder than the fight for life?

:shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 15, 2010
The fight for soul should be harder than the fight for life!

If you do a search for 'evangelical buddhists' you'll find that there is indeed such a movement, and indeed - it read to me that the guy who wrote the article I quoted above was a convert to Buddhism.

However, your point is well taken.

There are other religious communities who aren't evangelical - the Sikhs and Druze to name but two. And I'd add that the Jains are extreme pacificists as well (and view themselves as distinct from 'Hindus'). I'd also add the Sufis of Islam who would argue they are pacifist too.


But anyway, interesting connection that Islamophobia is greater amongst those with anti-Semitic values in America. Not something we've witnessed from our resident American bible-basher, it must be said - he must be one of those Christian Zionists that think it is a religious duty to support Israel?

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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 15, 2010
A couple of years ago I was lucky to find myself in the presence of the Saudi Supreme Minister of Religious Affairs (about which I have posted before) with the opportunity to spend some two hours in theological discussion.

The gentleman was highly articulate, intelligent, witty and completely open to what might seem to be my clumsy naiive questions. I tried to get a handle on the perception of other religions in the eyes of an obviously devoted Islamic cleric and university lecturer. One of those questions concerned the position of Islam within the contextural history of Judaiism and Christianity. Islam (in its present form) is a relative new-comer and is actually a direct derivation from the Jewish/Christian doctrine (this was a point conceded by the Minister) and he clearly stated that:

"Muslims and Jews are brothers, we have no problem with the Jewish faith as Islam teaches religious tolerance and we have a common root. Our issue is not one of religion, simply with the geographical position and actions of the state of Israel and the Zionist movement within it."

Perhaps the labels 'Jew' and 'Israel' have now become synonymous in the greater public's eye? Is this a result of negative propaganda or merely a lack of understanding by the greater unwashed? (bearing in mind that the average American has no concept of the shape of the world outside their own blinkered boundaries) It seems the media are fond of putting labels on things. Like jars of nuts and bolts in your shed, they may be all mixed up and of different sizes and threads, but the label just reads "Nuts and Bolts".

"The Jewish State of Israel" or the Islamic State of Iran" seem to be common ones. No-one refers to "The Catholic State of France" or the "Church of England State of Great Britain"?

Being a Jedi, I feel I am lucky to be able to distance myself from this stereotyping and look at it objectively. Are dolphins Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Buddhist? I assume that every religion would claim them to be the creation of their own version of 'God' but at the end of the day the dolphin remains unconcerned and gets on with the simple task of living in harmony with the universe.

:) :) :)

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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 16, 2010
I agree with the minister DK - and it is a fact that is recognised and shouted about my many organisations/activists.

Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein for example argue that the Palestine/Israel issue is clearly about land, international law and basic human rights.

The PLO/Fatah is a secular nationalist organisation, and when they were the only party representing the Palestinian interests were branded 'terrorists' and even 'communists' (some PLO fighters got training in Vietnam, for example).

The Israelis actually helped set up what was to become Hamas because they wanted an internal opposition to the PLO.

There is now a concerted campaign to fudge the issue and insist that the Palestinian issue is more complicated than it actually is.


FD and I had a long discussion on Palestinian diplomatic moves to declare independence and formally crystalise what is in UN resolutions about Israel.

In that thread, some facts were brought out which I listed
1. Israel has made no concessions in the peace negotiations - it has been all the Palestinians
2. Israel broke the truce and lied about why it was bombing Gaza and killing civilians (by saying Hamas broke the truce)
3. Israel have 78% of the land and Palestinians are settling for 22% - but Israel is reluctant to settle for this and seems to want more - specfically building more illegal colonies in the 22% that is not Israel.
4. Israel is unequivocably breaking international law in East Jerusalem by annexing it.
5. B'tselem say Israel in East Jerusalem is discriminating against the non-Israeli residents.

http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-politics-talk/palestine-push-for-independence-t39413-270.html#p325228

These are facts that aren't disputed. (Rather excuses are always given for why Israel should be allowed to break international law etc - it's the 'mooslims who hate us' is a recurring theme)

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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 16, 2010
I'd also add the Sufis of Islam who would argue they are pacifist too.


Ok, let's see you argue away with that. I'd like to hear from our resident scholar explain how Sufi Jihadists of yester-century were actually pacifists.

When Buddhist monks kill other Buddhist monks over a difference in Buddhist theology - I'd call that 'violent elements in Buddhism'.


Ok - so we agree that people will use violence, such as people on Christmas fighting over a tickle me elmo doll.

And we both (apparently) agree that there are no texts and teachings in Buddhism which advocates violence, at least, not on the scale of Islam, which is the only religion which calls for perpetual warfare against disbelievers until they convert to Islam or live as second class citizens under an Islamic state (occupation).
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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 16, 2010
I'm not a Sufi - so I'll let them argue their case (note I did not say I agreed with what they'd argue).

I'm glad we agree that there are violent elements in all societies. We've discussed ad nauseum your quaint beliefs about Islam, no need to rehash them here.

eh - what is interesting, however, is that you haven't actually commented in this thread about the original findings of the survey of your countrymen. Hmmm

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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 16, 2010
Well, Shafique, those are your ´facts´. Don´t include me. Your ´facts´ stems from an intense hatred. Like how Auschwitz is also not a fact for you. But lets not reiterate arguments made in another thread that are slightly off topic here.

This thread has a lot in common with another thread±

philosophy-dubai/difference-between-antisemitism-and-islamophobia-t40515-15.html

The thread started with:

Both antisemitism and Islamophobia seem to be closely connected. In Europe where antisemitism rises, Islamophobia rises and vice versa.


We tried to explore the differences between anti-semitism and islamophobia and reached the following conclusions:

1. antisemitism targets a ethnicity, while Islamopohobia targets a religion, or it might be argued an ideology.

2. Both phenonomen are used incorrectly. Critics of Islam are quickly accused as Islamophobes. Critics of Israel are often branded as antisemites.

Where the following warning signs were listed to distingish anti-semitism with justified criticism of Israel:

-Out of all proportion singling out Israel in criticism especially compared to any other party in the Middle East.
-Comparing Israel to the Nazi's
-Exaggerating the influence of the Jewish state on world affairs, like controlling the media and the financial markets
-Denying, minimizing, or trivializing the Holocaust.

An interesting point you made is that:

Point out that Israel uses Islamophobic spin


(This attitude will be referenced by Klaus Faber later on, who researched anti-semitism and islamophobia)

3. Islamphobia is based on a book perceived as the truth by its believers (the Quran), while the summit of antisemtism is based on the Elders of Zion, a book considered uther non-sense by Jews (and I agree).

Last, I would like to quote Klaus Faber who researched the difference between anti-semitism and islamophobia:

The Center for Research on Anti-Semitism at the Technical University of Berlin has compared it with hostility against Islam in a conference called "Perceived Enemy Muslim - Perceived Enemy Jew." This attempted comparison has met with rejection, since the term "Islamophobia" is primarily used during anti-Western and anti-Israeli agitation in Islamic countries.

[Recognize this Shafique? :wink: ]

Islamophobia does not refer to actual discrimination against Muslims, but to allegedly inappropriate criticism of Shari'a law and Islam in general.

One finds a close cooperation between aggressive anti-Semitic Islamists and equally anti-Semitic neo-Nazis.

Some argue that the tendency to hold a collective accountable for the wrongdoings of individuals is a quality of hostility toward Islam, and this is also claimed to be an example of structural similarity with anti-Semitism. But considering the varying nature of "wrongdoing" involved, this would mean equating alleged Jewish wrongdoing in the financial market or the media with indisputable Islamic terrorism, jihadism and threats to eliminate Israel. To put these facts on the same level as theories is unacceptable and cannot be justified by the claim that one thereby aims to avoid a "hierarchy of victims."

In addition, one common side effect is that justified criticism of the conditions in Islamic societies is branded as Islamophobic
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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 16, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:Well, Shafique, those are your ´facts´. Don´t include me.


I didn't think you were American or contributed to the Gallup poll. So why are you taking the findings of the American survey to heart?

I don't work for Gallup either.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Your ´facts´ stems from an intense hatred. Like how Auschwitz is also not a fact for you.


:) Ah, the whiff of desperation. Sorry, let's make that stench.

Whilst your fantasy is that I'm a Holocaust denier (I'm not) or that I hate all nonMuslims - I'm afraid that has more to do with your imagination than with anything I've written.

That said, are you taking the thread title personally?

Happy to discuss the other points you've raised in separate threads, but I'll briefly touch on some here - there's much there that I agree with, but some that we may differ on. The main difference will be over your use of the Israeli tactics of redefining issues along religuous lines and seeking to make hatred against those of Judaic faith to be something 'special' or 'not normal' from other types of hatred.

I thought linking of anti-semitism to 'Protocols of Zion' was particularly funny - that would anti-Zionism; anti-Semitism historically has been more due to European view of Jews as the killers of God, with even Hitler's church taking this line - Islamophobia is hatred of Muslims - and doesn't stem from Gods words in the Quran - disagreements over theology have resulted in dialogue from the time of the Prophet - when he hosted the Bishop of Najran and his delegation in Medina and allowed them to use his mosque for their Sunday service.

But I do agree that both anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are irrational hatreds, and that both have been used to incorrectly label criticisms of Israel or Islamic theology. I make a distinction between theological differences and orientalist inspired Islamophobic disinformation.



Thanks, though, for the link to the earlier thread. You will note that I asked for stats and when they were provided I conceded the point.

But fair is fair, it appears that the Americans do hate the Jews more than they hate the Muslims - according to FBI stats. It shows that I shouldn't be so quick to judgement based on media reports - perhaps the US doesn't actually have as many people who share the Islamophobia of some of our posters as popular opinion would have it.

Thanks for providing the stats eh - fascinating to see that in the States it appears that a Muslim should feel safer than a Jew. I'm happy to join you in campaigning for greater safety for Jews in America - as this perfectly complements my stance against injustices committed against other groups in other parts of the world.

http://www.dubaiforums.com/philosophy-dubai/difference-between-antisemitism-and-islamophobia-t40515-30.html#p326846

What the Gallup survey shows though, is that Anti-Semitism may be a leading indicator for Islamophobia. Therefore the number of Anti-semitic attacks may be a leading indicator for future hate crimes against other groups? Time will tell, I guess.

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Shafique
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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 16, 2010
shafique wrote:
Flying Dutchman wrote:Well, Shafique, those are your ´facts´. Don´t include me.


I didn't think you were American or contributed to the Gallup poll. So why are you taking the findings of the American survey to heart?

I don't work for Gallup either.


I was responding to your facts posted at Sun May 16, 2010 6:34 am

shafique wrote:Whilst your fantasy is that I'm a Holocaust denier (I'm not) or that I hate all nonMuslims - I'm afraid that has more to do with your imagination than with anything I've written.


You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.
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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 16, 2010
See my previous note above - I added some more comment in an edit, after you had posted below.

Flying Dutchman wrote:I was responding to your facts posted at Sun May 16, 2010 6:34 am


Ok - the facts about the Palestine/Israel issue. Sure - I gave the link to thread where these facts were listed and your explanations of why we should excuse Israel - but no where did you dispute the facts. (Eg, you said that the Gaza pullout was a step made by Israel unilaterally - but this was not a concession in the peace process, their pullout was always part of what was required by International law - I made this point just after my list of the facts.)

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Whilst your fantasy is that I'm a Holocaust denier (I'm not) or that I hate all nonMuslims - I'm afraid that has more to do with your imagination than with anything I've written.


You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.


Again, this is more to do with your imagination than with anything I've written.

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Shafique
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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 16, 2010
shafique wrote:but no where did you dispute the facts.


Liar, but lets not take this in this thread. If you have something else to add concerning the other thread, do it there.

shafique wrote:Again, this is more to do with your imagination than with anything I've written.


Good to see you are getting a bit ashamed of your extremist views. I can remember you found nothing wrong with this picture, actually you stated there is nothing wrong with the nazi salute. Do you still have the same opinion?

hezbollah%2520salute.jpeg
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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 16, 2010
LOL - as I said, your imagination runs riot.

So, I'm ashamed and a liar now - fair enough. The facts and your excuses are there to read, you still have to provide any quote where I deny the Holocaust.

Do you view all Muslims as having Danny Devito physique, long beards, ranting about killing infidels, beat their wives etc? Or do you just reel out your imaginings when you run out of arguments?

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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 16, 2010
The last time we discussed the roman salute that Hezbollah chooses to use, I don't recall saying that I said I deny the Holocaust - do you?

I do recall I also provided you with this image as well (taken in 1941):
Image


I also find Charlie Chaplin funny - are you going to have a go at me for not objecting to the moustache? (Or the hindu symbol of the Swastica, for that matter)?


Is paranoia a trait of Islamophobes, I wonder? :roll:


Edit - let me answer your question. No my opinions about Hezbollah's choice of salute hasn't changed - I said at the time it was deliberately provocative because of its association with the Nazis, but that I disagreed with the 'guilt by association' argument that they are anti-Semites because of the choice of salute - I quoted the rabbis who stated categorically that Hezbollah wasn't anti-Semitic, and the words of Hezbollah themselves.
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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 16, 2010
I see a post of mine was deleted.

Can a mod explain why?
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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 16, 2010
^nothing to do with me.

I can't see a deleted post in this thread (we normally see deleted posts as mods - so they can be recovered if deleted in error).

Was it in this thread?

Edit - I've had a look at the moderator logs, nothing has been deleted by any Mod today - actually nothing for at least a week has been deleted. FD - please provide more details.

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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 16, 2010
Not me!

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Just sitting in the umpire's seat watching the ball go back and forth over the net...

8) 8) 8)

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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 16, 2010
shafique wrote:Edit - I've had a look at the moderator logs, nothing has been deleted by any Mod today - actually nothing for at least a week has been deleted. FD - please provide more details.


I posted between your two posts from:
Sun May 16, 2010 3:27 pm
Sun May 16, 2010 3:30 pm

It was there as a reply to your post from 3:27. After your post of 3:30 it was gone.

Oh, I see, now it is the Roman salute. After WW II the nazi salute is just 'not done' anymore. Yes, after WW II a nazi salute I consider anti-semitic, you obviously dont. Fine.
Just to compare a bit nowadays saluting like a nazi is on the same level of provocation as nakely depicting 50 year old Mohammed taking 9 year old Aisha from behind or Aisha sucking Mohammed dry.

As for you denying the holocaust. Those discussions took place at DHH, unfortunately we cannot see them back.
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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 17, 2010
Well we definitely have spotted one Islamophobe on this thread. Thank you Shafique.. keep going :wink:
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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 17, 2010
FD - the records don't show that you posted anything at the time you said. I can assure you that I didn't delete it - why don't you just repost it.

As for the salute - the photo I showed was from 1941. There is one from 1943 of other American school children and there is also an infamous one of Roman Catholic clergy giving Nazi salutes in Germany.

Let's see if I can find them - I'll post them later.

As for me denying the Holocaust - I refer you to my previous observations regarding your imagination vs reality. (clue - I'm not surprised you can't produce any quote which backs up your slur)

Is it frustrating that I'm not getting angry but rather chuckling at the attempts to divert attention away from the message of the thread? In an ironic way, though, your posts are extremely relevant to this thread! ;)

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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 17, 2010
My mistake, this photo of American school kids is from 1942 and not 1943 as I said above (the first one, is from 1941 - at a time when the Nazis had been around for a long time and WWII was raging)

Image

Here are two of priests:
Image
Image
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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 17, 2010
I don't care much who gives a nazi salute. After WW II I consider a nazi salute a clear sign of anti-semitism. You don't...why are you trying to obscure that fact?

shafique wrote:As for me denying the Holocaust - I refer you to my previous observations regarding your imagination vs reality. (clue - I'm not surprised you can't produce any quote which backs up your slur)


Well I remember you couldn't get yourself denying the conclusions of 'documentaries' from Iran and Hamas denying the holocaust. Did you change your mind? I also remember you underlying conclusions (that death camps didn't exists in WW II) reached on a neo-nazi website, you supported them with some calculations. Did that not happen according to you now?

shafique wrote:Is it frustrating that I'm not getting angry but rather chuckling at the attempts to divert attention away from the message of the thread? In an ironic way, though, your posts are extremely relevant to this thread! ;)


Just tried to put things in perspective. The title of the thread is how to spot an islamophobe...in the OP I have seen one slightly related observation: that if one is anti-semitic the chance rises that that person is also islamophobic (an observation I already shared in another thread). Nothing more. Do you have any more comments with regards to the remarks of Klaus Faber?
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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 17, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:I don't care much who gives a nazi salute. After WW II I consider a nazi salute a clear sign of anti-semitism. You don't...why are you trying to obscure that fact?


I consider anti-semitism to be a sign of anti-semitism and disagreed with you that a photo of Hezbollah fighters giving the salute outweighed the categoric statement by Jewish Rabbis and Hezbollah itself that it was not anti-Semitic - but rather against Israel's illegal actions (Hezbollah was, after all, set up to fight Israel's invasion and occupation of Lebanon).

Your 'clear sign' is indeed a belief of yours I don't share. Why would I try and 'obscure that fact'?

By your logic, aren't the American kids giving the salute in 1941 and 1943 anti-semitic, or does your time-line only start in 1945?

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:As for me denying the Holocaust - I refer you to my previous observations regarding your imagination vs reality. (clue - I'm not surprised you can't produce any quote which backs up your slur)


Well I remember you couldn't get yourself denying the conclusions of 'documentaries' from Iran and Hamas denying the holocaust. Did you change your mind? I also remember you underlying conclusions (that death camps didn't exists in WW II) reached on a neo-nazi website, you supported them with some calculations. Did that not happen according to you now?


I have absolutely no recollection writing anything that comes close to Holocaust denial. I think you're trying to do your old trick of 'guilt by association' again. I don't recall watching any Iranian or Hamas documentaries - or agreeing with any conclusion that stated the Holocaust did not occur.

As I said, your imagination/recollection is letting you down.


Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Is it frustrating that I'm not getting angry but rather chuckling at the attempts to divert attention away from the message of the thread? In an ironic way, though, your posts are extremely relevant to this thread! ;)


Just tried to put things in perspective. The title of the thread is how to spot an islamophobe...in the OP I have seen one slightly related observation: that if one is anti-semitic the chance rises that that person is also islamophobic (an observation I already shared in another thread). Nothing more. Do you have any more comments with regards to the remarks of Klaus Faber?


Ok - well putting things in perspective is something that I don't object to.

As for Klaus' remarks - here are my comments:

The Center for Research on Anti-Semitism at the Technical University of Berlin has compared it with hostility against Islam in a conference called "Perceived Enemy Muslim - Perceived Enemy Jew." This attempted comparison has met with rejection, since the term "Islamophobia" is primarily used during anti-Western and anti-Israeli agitation in Islamic countries.

Islamophobia does not refer to actual discrimination against Muslims, but to allegedly inappropriate criticism of Shari'a law and Islam in general.


I agree that Islamophobia is used to describe inappropriate criticism of Islam. The key word is inappropriate.

I don't think legitimate criticism is Islamophobic - and hopefully have shown on this forum that all questions about Islam can be dealt with politely.

...Some argue that the tendency to hold a collective accountable for the wrongdoings of individuals is a quality of hostility toward Islam, and this is also claimed to be an example of structural similarity with anti-Semitism.


I guess I'm not one of the 'some' who would argue this. I think the extrapolation of the misdemeanors of some Muslims on to the relgion is not a root cause, but rather a manifestation of Islamophobia. I'd agree with those who trace back Islamophobia to the pre-crusade times when there was a lot of misinformation about Islam, some of which still echos to this day.

But considering the varying nature of "wrongdoing" involved, this would mean equating alleged Jewish wrongdoing in the financial market or the media with indisputable Islamic terrorism, jihadism and threats to eliminate Israel. To put these facts on the same level as theories is unacceptable and cannot be justified by the claim that one thereby aims to avoid a "hierarchy of victims."


Again, I'm not sure I'd agree that Anti-semitism stems from what what the anti-Semites think Jews are behind. I think it is the other way round - when one is anti-semitic, one sees the hidden hand of the Jooos everywhere. The anti-semitism actually stems from a hatred of Jews and in Europe this historically has been down to a belief that Jews killed Christ. This historic cause of anti-Semitism still echoes today, I'd argue.

In addition, one common side effect is that justified criticism of the conditions in Islamic societies is branded as Islamophobic


I'd agree with this - it is wrong to label criticism of ills of some societies as Islamophobia, unless (of course) the criticism is linked to Islam wrongly.

cheers,
Shafique
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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 17, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.


Will you take this comment back now, or do you still believe it to be true?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: How to spot an Islamophobe May 17, 2010
Well I remember you couldn't get yourself denying the conclusions of 'documentaries' from Iran and Hamas denying the holocaust.


Well there is a difference between denying consequence of holocaust and the objectives of holocaust.
Just as there is difference between anti-semitism and anti-israel..

Everyone knows that in the history of Europe between 19th/20th century the borders/countries were being built by seducing hatred amongst ethnic groups in communities which resulted in uprise hence pogroms, mass killings via wars etc..

Just the fact that hands salute nazi in America gives us the sign that this pogrom in Germany was well calculated amongst the powers of the time when America was left to control affairs in Middle East after muslim borders were established.
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Re: How To Spot An Islamophobe May 17, 2010
shafique wrote:I consider anti-semitism to be a sign of anti-semitism


Brilliant!

shafique wrote:Your 'clear sign' is indeed a belief of yours I don't share. Why would I try and 'obscure that fact'?


OK, so according to you a nazi salute is not a clear sign of anti-semitism. Don't understand why you have to discuss it further. Your statement is chrystal clear.


shafique wrote:I have absolutely no recollection writing anything that comes close to Holocaust denial. I think you're trying to do your old trick of 'guilt by association' again. I don't recall watching any Iranian or Hamas documentaries - or agreeing with any conclusion that stated the Holocaust did not occur.


Playing word games again. You didn't deny the conclusions of 'documentaries' from Iran and Hamas denying the holocaust and you agreed with (you showed some calculations) the conclusions (that death camps didn't exists in WW II) reached on a neo-nazi website.

shafique wrote:I think it is the other way round - when one is anti-semitic, one sees the hidden hand of the Jooos everywhere.


That would include quite some forum members!


What are other tells of an islamophobe?

-- Mon May 17, 2010 12:48 pm --

Berrin wrote:Well there is a difference between denying consequence of holocaust and the objectives of holocaust.


Can you eloborate? What was the consequence and what where the objectives have the holocaust?
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