Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

Red Chief · May 17, 2010

Flying Dutchman wrote:OK, so according to you a nazi salute is not a clear sign of anti-semitism. Don't understand why you have to discuss it further. Your statement is chrystal clear.

Why is it the sign of anti-semitism? It is a sign of faschism as far as I know.

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

Red Chief wrote:
Flying Dutchman wrote:OK, so according to you a nazi salute is not a clear sign of anti-semitism. Don't understand why you have to discuss it further. Your statement is chrystal clear.

Why is it the sign of anti-semitism? It is a sign of faschism as far as I know.

If you know what happened in WW II and what the nazi salute stands for, most certainly yes, it is clear sign of antisemitism.

shafique · May 17, 2010

Flying Dutchman wrote:OK, so according to you a nazi salute is not a clear sign of anti-semitism. Don't understand why you have to discuss it further. Your statement is chrystal clear.

In general terms, I'd say it is a fascist sign and if possible I'd check with the group giving the sign what their beliefs are before I automatically label them anti-semitic. If there are Jewish Rabbis who tell me that they aren't, then I'd probably take the Rabbi's verdict into account rather than agreeing with your premise that despite saying they aren't anti-Semitic, Hezbollah must be 'because they use a roman salute'.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:I have absolutely no recollection writing anything that comes close to Holocaust denial. I think you're trying to do your old trick of 'guilt by association' again. I don't recall watching any Iranian or Hamas documentaries - or agreeing with any conclusion that stated the Holocaust did not occur.

Playing word games again.

Huh?

Flying Dutchman wrote: You didn't deny the conclusions of 'documentaries' from Iran and Hamas denying the holocaust and you agreed with (you showed some calculations) the conclusions (that death camps didn't exists in WW II) reached on a neo-nazi website.

Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else? I've never denied any argument that comes close to saying that the Holocaust did not take place. You recall some calculations I made - how would a calculation verify whether the Holocaust took place or not?

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:I think it is the other way round - when one is anti-semitic, one sees the hidden hand of the Jooos everywhere.

That would include quite some forum members!

Perhaps, or perhaps you are imagining that they have these views?

Flying Dutchman wrote:What are other tells of an islamophobe?

Well, for one they will argue that their interpretation of Islam is correct and insist that the Orientalist view that Islam teaches that all non-Muslims should be fought against, to name but one canard, is true.

I'll ask you again, do you have ANY evidence to back up your slur:

Flying Dutchman wrote:You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · May 17, 2010

Can you eloborate? What was the consequence and what where the objectives have the holocaust?

the holocaust was real in the sense that so many jews had to die(sacrificed) in order to legitimate a jewish state being built on the lands of palestinians.It was a hoax in the sense that Hitler was anti-semitic and that he was after creating one purified/super race nation.
All muslims/non-muslims who are anti-racist, peace loving knows this fact and can clearly see this happening if dig into history of European politics as well as ME affairs through analytic mind.

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

shafique wrote:I've never denied any argument that comes close to saying that the Holocaust did not take place.

Yes, that is my point exactly.

shafique wrote:You recall some calculations I made - how would a calculation verify whether the Holocaust took place or not?

Fascinating that you donot deny agreeing with calculations on a neo-nazi website denying the death camps. Your evasiveness speaks volumes.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Perhaps, or perhaps you are imagining that they have these views?

LOL. I also remember you posting a speech of Ahmadinejad claiming 2000 jews somewhere rule the world. And no, that isn't my imagination.

I would consider above post of Berrin anti-semitic. Do you?

-- Mon May 17, 2010 2:08 pm --

Berrin wrote:the holocaust was real in the sense that so many jews had to die(sacrificed) in order to legitimate a jewish state being built on the lands of palestinians.

Are you trying to say that jews caused (or even executed) the holocaust themselves in order to legitimize the establishment of Israel?

Berrin wrote:It was a hoax in the sense that Hitler was anti-semitic and that he was after creating one purified/super race nation.

Berrin · May 17, 2010

Fascinating that you donot deny agreeing with calculations on a neo-nazi website denying the death camps.

Yes the neo-nazis deny the death camps on the same bases as I had explained, the death camps were not coming from within the Germany people/society but it was a set-up role giving to German nation by the ruling powers of the world to sort out regional as well as the shape of world politics..

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

Berrin wrote:Yes the neo-nazis deny the death camps on the same bases as I had explained, the death camps were not coming from within the Germany people/society but it was a set-up role giving to German nation by the ruling powers of the world to sort out regional as well as the shape of world politics..

Allright, so the nazi's didnot set up any death camp according to you. Shafique must agree with you, based on some neo-nazi calculations

Who were the ruling powers of the world?

shafique · May 17, 2010

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:I've never denied any argument that comes close to saying that the Holocaust did not take place.

Yes, that is my point exactly.

I should have said 'I've never AGREED with any argument that comes close to saying the Holocaust did not take place.'
:oops:

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:You recall some calculations I made - how would a calculation verify whether the Holocaust took place or not?

Fascinating that you donot deny agreeing with calculations on a neo-nazi website denying the death camps. Your evasiveness speaks volumes.

Fascinating is one word for it. Given I don't recall what you're talking about, I would use a different word for it - something like 'desperation'

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Perhaps, or perhaps you are imagining that they have these views?

LOL. I also remember you posting a speech of Ahmadinejad claiming 2000 jews somewhere rule the world. And no, that isn't my imagination.

It is your imagination. I've never quoted Ineedadinnerjacket saying that, nor have I said I agree with such a statement.

Could I ask you, yet again, do you have ANY evidence to back up your slur:

Flying Dutchman wrote:You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.

Surely you have a scrap of evidence?

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

shafique wrote:Fascinating is one word for it. Given I don't recall what you're talking about, I would use a different word for it - something like 'desperation'

Ah, you donot recall. Let me help to refresh a bit. Spoonman on DHH posted a link to a neo-nazi website. There death camps where denied with some calculations given. You 'checked' the calculations and found them correct. Still no recollection?

shafique wrote:It is your imagination. I've never quoted Ineedadinnerjacket saying that, nor have I said I agree with such a statement.

Let me help refreshing. It is about this:

Ahmadinejad: 2,000 Jews Control the World

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has launched new verbal attacks
against Israel, saying Zionist leaders are "germs of corruption" who will be
wiped "off the face of the earth."

Ahmadinejad's recent comments on the Iranian News Channel were translated
and released by the Middle East Media Research Institute on Thursday.

"The Zionists are crooks," the Iranian leader declared.

"A small handful of Zionists, with a very intricate organization, have taken
over the power centers of the world. According to our estimates, the main
cadre of the Zionists consists of 2,000 individuals at most, and they have
another 8,000 activists. In addition, they have several informants, who spy
and provide them with intelligence information."

This "cadre" controls the world's financial centers and news and propaganda
agencies, and spreads "propaganda as if they were the entire world, as if
all the peoples supported them, and as if they were the majority ruling the
world," Ahmadinejad asserted.

"That is a great lie - just like their Jewishness is a great lie. They have
no religion whatsoever. They are a handful of lying, power-greedy people who
have no religion, who only want to take over all the peoples and countries,
and to trample the rights of the peoples . . .

"A Zionist organization with 2,000 [members] and with 7,000 or 8,000
activists has brought the world to a state of confusion. Let me tell them
that if they themselves do not wrap up Zionism, the strong arm of the
peoples will wipe these germs of corruption off the face of the earth."

Ahmadinejad also claimed that that Zionists "kidnap oppressed, destitute,
ignorant people from other countries, and bring them to the occupied lands
to serve as human shields."

Remember?

Again, speaking volumes that you donot comment on Berrins post or answer my questions about it. Like I said, you must agree with him!

A new chance then: What is your opinion that Hamas and Ahmadinejad deny the holocaust?

shafique · May 17, 2010

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Fascinating is one word for it. Given I don't recall what you're talking about, I would use a different word for it - something like 'desperation'

Ah, you donot recall. Let me help to refresh a bit. Spoonman on DHH posted a link to a neo-nazi website. There death camps where denied with some calculations given. You 'checked' the calculations and found them correct. Still no recollection?

Nope, no recollection at all about any such calculations. (Just to be clear, I'm not saying I recall some calculations which were on a neo-nazi website that I checked, but I am going to play word games with you and deny this - I do not recall any calculations you describe at all).

But I'm now intrigued - what 'calculations' could show that death camps didn't exist? Seriously, I'm not point scoring here - I'd like to find this out now.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:It is your imagination. I've never quoted Ineedadinnerjacket saying that, nor have I said I agree with such a statement.

Let me help refreshing. It is about this:

Ahmadinejad: 2,000 Jews Control the World

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has launched new verbal attacks
against Israel, saying Zionist leaders are "germs of corruption" who will be
wiped "off the face of the earth."

Ahmadinejad's recent comments on the Iranian News Channel were translated
and released by the Middle East Media Research Institute on Thursday.

...Ahmadinejad also claimed that that Zionists "kidnap oppressed, destitute,
ignorant people from other countries, and bring them to the occupied lands
to serve as human shields."

I've never posted this quote or said I agree with it. Are you sure you're not imagining that I agreed or posted this quote?

Edit: Why would I quote MEMRI??? (let alone agree with MEMRI)

Flying Dutchman wrote:Again, speaking volumes that you donot comment on Berrins post or answer my questions about it. Like I said, you must agree with him!

A new chance then: What is your opinion that Hamas and Ahmadinejad deny the holocaust?

Hold on, I'm still trying to get to the bottom of your slur about ME being a Holocaust denier.

(But to answer your question, I don't agree with anyone who says that the Holocaust did not happen - whether it is David Irving, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi of Hamas and yes even Ahmadinejad's quotes of it being a 'myth'.)

So, let me ask you again - do you have any evidence for the slur:

Flying Dutchman wrote:You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.

Edit:
What is one to make of this quote from Hamas:
"In 2008, Basim Naim, the minister of health in the Hamas government in Gaza, said "But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality."?
From an article 'Hamas Condemns the Holocaust'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/12/hamascondemnstheholocaust

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

shafique wrote:Nope, no recollection at all about any such calculations.

Okay, if you want to play that way.

shafique wrote:what 'calculations' could show that death camps didn't exist?

Calculations of how many jews were alive after and before 1945 according to neo-nazi's.

shafique wrote:I've never posted this quote or said I agree with it.

LOL.

shafique wrote:(But to answer your question, I don't agree with anyone who says that the Holocaust did not happen

Do you consider Berrins above remarks anti-semitic then? (asking for the third time)

shafique wrote:whether it is David Irving, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi of Hamas and yes even Ahmadinejad's quotes of it being a 'myth'.)

Do you consider them anti-semitic?

This is what Hamas thinks of the holocaust:

The Hamas TV educational program, broadcast last week, taught that the murder of Jews in the Holocaust was a Zionist plot with two goals:

1- To eliminate "disabled and handicapped" Jews by sending them to death camps, so they would not be a burden on the future state of Israel.

2- At the same time, the Holocaust served to make "the Jews seem persecuted" so they could "benefit from international sympathy."

Seems to be in agreement with Berrin.

If you doubt the translation a link to the original broadcast is also provided:

http://www.pmw.org.il/bulletins_apr2008.html

Berrin · May 17, 2010

Are you trying to say that jews caused (or even executed) the holocaust themselves in order to legitimize the establishment of Israel?

That's how it looks like and there is more to it than that.. they were carving the world in camps.. my tag line is that "Watch what is done, not what is said"..

Who were the ruling powers of the world?

The following...

It is interesting to note that Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin were all Jews; as was Eisenhower, who murdered millions of unarmed, capitulated Germans in real extermination camps after the war was over.)

http://www.realityreviewed.com/Dresden.htm
open the link and click on real extermination camps..

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-chu ... other.html

FD, What is it that you don’t like about Ahmedinajads statement, he clearly says that he is anti-zionist and not anti-jew.. As far as I am concerned the ordinary peace loving jews are no different than an ordinary dutch or an Indian or an Arab. So yes with the efforts of peace loving people/nations Zionism will be wiped out. And what’s wrong with that? Today the whole world suffers becouse of zionist and their neocon supporters.
Are you zionist by any chance?

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

Berrin wrote:
Are you trying to say that jews caused (or even executed) the holocaust themselves in order to legitimize the establishment of Israel?

That's how it looks like and there is more to it than that.. they were carving the world in camps..

And still Shafique maintains anti-semitic elements on this forum are in my imagination. Above remark I consider highly anti-semitic, Shafique obviously doesn't. As he denies so many things.

shafique · May 17, 2010

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:what 'calculations' could show that death camps didn't exist?

Calculations of how many jews were alive after and before 1945 according to neo-nazi's.

No, I would have remembered that. So, I have to say this is one of your 'imagined' arguments.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:I've never posted this quote or said I agree with it.

LOL.

Not sure what you're finding funny, the fact I didn't post or agreed with the Memri quote, or is it embarrassment that you imagined I posted/agreed with the quote?

No, I don't consider Hamas to be anti-semitic based based on what was written two years ago - see the thread 'Hamas' view of the Holocaust' for the full article.

May I ask, yet again,
Do you have ANY evidence for your slur:

Flying Dutchman wrote:You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.

Surely you have a scrap of evidence? So far it's been 'I remember you did a calculation once' - is this really the only evidence you have?

Cheers,
shafique

Berrin · May 17, 2010

FD, Why do you just have to read the lines that serves to your imagination only? while leaving out what is said in the rest of it..
Jews have had, and still have, influence in Amsterdam. Are you one of them by any chance-the supporter of zionism?

shafique · May 17, 2010

FD asked whether I consider Berrin to be anti-semitic. To be fair to both Berrin and FD, let me look at what Berrin has written and assess whether I'd label Berrin as an anti-semite:

Berrin wrote:
Well I remember you couldn't get yourself denying the conclusions of 'documentaries' from Iran and Hamas denying the holocaust.

Well there is a difference between denying consequence of holocaust and the objectives of holocaust.
Just as there is difference between anti-semitism and anti-israel..

No, nothing there that strikes me as anti-semitic.

Berrin wrote:Everyone knows that in the history of Europe between 19th/20th century the borders/countries were being built by seducing hatred amongst ethnic groups in communities which resulted in uprise hence pogroms, mass killings via wars etc..

Just the fact that hands salute nazi in America gives us the sign that this pogrom in Germany was well calculated amongst the powers of the time when America was left to control affairs in Middle East after muslim borders were established.

Again, I can't see anything there that expresses a hatred for Jews/Judaism.

Berrin wrote:the holocaust was real in the sense that so many jews had to die(sacrificed) in order to legitimate a jewish state being built on the lands of palestinians.It was a hoax in the sense that Hitler was anti-semitic and that he was after creating one purified/super race nation.

All muslims/non-muslims who are anti-racist, peace loving knows this fact and can clearly see this happening if dig into history of European politics as well as ME affairs through analytic mind.

Berrin's certainly guilty of not being completely clear in what he's saying. "It was a hoax in the sense that Hitler was anti-semitic"??

What do you mean Berrin - are you saying that Hitler was or wasn't anti-Semitic. I think it would be a bit stupid to argue that Hitler wasn't an anti-semite.

FD - I'd ask Berrin whether he hates all Jews and Judaism before I labelled him anti-Semite - I certainly would not condemn him based on what you think he said above. (But that's perhaps just me - I'd rather not jump to conclusions that I embarrassingly could not back up later when challenged.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

So according Shafique, a nazi salute and/or denying the holocaust is not anti-semitic. For me thats how to spot a anti-semite. Also Berrin comments that jews are responsible for the holocaust (and nazi's have nothing to do with it) is also not considered anti-semitic. Nice!

I am sure you have a lot of followers here on this forum.

-- Mon May 17, 2010 6:15 pm --

Berrin wrote:Jews have had, and still have, influence in Amsterdam. Are you one of them by any chance-the supporter of zionism?

No, I am not jewish and not from Amsterdam.

Do I support Zionism? I believe Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself. An important part of the existence is because people like you. Or uaekid and the other idiot who stated theti wish to kill all jews.

shafique · May 17, 2010

I think it is a good point to take a deep breath and review what has transpired in this thread. It is quite interesting on a number of levels.

The intial post is about a US survey which shows Islamophobia is more likely amongst Americans who hold anti-semitic views. No one really seems to dispute this survey's results.

DK and I had a brief discussion on how Buddhism doesn't seem to invoke predjudice or have external violent tendencies, but it was noted that there it is not immune from some violence - albeit over a small theological point and in an isolated area of Buddhism.

DK seems to be the one who put the cat amongst the pigeons by posting about a conversation he had in Saudi Arabia where it was said that issues were not with Jews, but with Israel.

Then the fireworks started in response to my writing:

There is now a concerted campaign to fudge the issue and insist that the Palestinian issue is more complicated than it actually is.

FD and I had a long discussion on Palestinian diplomatic moves to declare independence and formally crystalise what is in UN resolutions about Israel.

In that thread, some facts were brought out which I listed
1. Israel has made no concessions in the peace negotiations - it has been all the Palestinians
2. Israel broke the truce and lied about why it was bombing Gaza and killing civilians (by saying Hamas broke the truce)
3. Israel have 78% of the land and Palestinians are settling for 22% - but Israel is reluctant to settle for this and seems to want more - specfically building more illegal colonies in the 22% that is not Israel.
4. Israel is unequivocably breaking international law in East Jerusalem by annexing it.
5. B'tselem say Israel in East Jerusalem is discriminating against the non-Israeli residents.

dubai-politics-talk/palestine-push-for-independence-t39413-270.html#p325228

These are facts that aren't disputed. (Rather excuses are always given for why Israel should be allowed to break international law etc - it's the 'mooslims who hate us' is a recurring theme)

FD took exception to this and stated

Flying Dutchman wrote:Well, Shafique, those are your ´facts´. Don´t include me. Your ´facts´ stems from an intense hatred. Like how Auschwitz is also not a fact for you. But lets not reiterate arguments made in another thread that are slightly off topic here.

So 1. I have 'intense hatred. and 2. Aushchwitz is apparently not a fact for me.

And to remove all doubt, FD stated:

Flying Dutchman wrote:You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.

I've asked for any evidence for this allegation (I called it a slur) and we have been led on a merry dance about Salutes, some alleged calculations which disprove death camps and requests to analyse Berrin's quotes. (But no evidence that I could see)

And in the last post above we have FD's summary:

So according Shafique, a nazi salute and/or denying the holocaust is not anti-semitic.

Hmmm - would that mean I'm not an anti-semite because I don't do a Nazi salute and don't deny the Holocaust? But what could the 'intense hatred' FD said above be referring to?

For me thats how to spot a anti-semite.

Thanks for sharing.

Berrin comments that jews are responsible for the holocaust (and nazi's have nothing to do with it) is also not considered anti-semitic. Nice!

Again, I must have slept through where I said this -

Anyway, FD - please let me know if my summary of the sequence is off - and particularly let me know if you have actually provided any evidence for your allegations/slurs against me?

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

shafique wrote:These are facts that aren't disputed.

Which a lie, and everybody can go back to the thread to check.

shafique wrote:Hmmm - would that mean I'm not an anti-semite because I don't do a Nazi salute and don't deny the Holocaust? But what could the 'intense hatred' FD said above be referring to?

Again, Shafique doesn't consider a nazi salute and/or holocaust denial anti-semitic. You are trying to go around that by obscuring it, but it is clear.

shafique wrote:Again, I must have slept through where I said this -

Yeah, you must have:

Berrin wrote:
Flying Dutchman wrote:Are you trying to say that jews caused (or even executed) the holocaust themselves in order to legitimize the establishment of Israel?

That's how it looks like and there is more to it than that.. they were carving the world in camps..

shafique · May 17, 2010

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:These are facts that aren't disputed.

Which a lie, and everybody can go back to the thread to check.

It's strange that even though the quote is above, you don't quote it in full.

These are facts that aren't disputed. (Rather excuses are always given for why Israel should be allowed to break international law etc - it's the 'mooslims who hate us' is a recurring theme)

The facts weren't disputed - you only gave excuses for the facts. Which fact is wrong/disputed, in your opinion and give us a link to the post where the fact is disputed in that thread, please.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Hmmm - would that mean I'm not an anti-semite because I don't do a Nazi salute and don't deny the Holocaust? But what could the 'intense hatred' FD said above be referring to?

Again, Shafique doesn't consider a nazi salute and/or holocaust denial anti-semitic. You are trying to go around that by obscuring it, but it is clear.

? It is not clear to me at all. Surely this isn't your 'evidence' is it?

Also, thanks for confirming that I didn't comment on Berrin's quote you gave above.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · May 17, 2010

Berrin wrote:
Are you trying to say that jews caused (or even executed) the holocaust themselves in order to legitimize the establishment of Israel?

That's how it looks like and there is more to it than that.. they were carving the world in camps.. my tag line is that "Watch what is done, not what is said"..

On this post, I would disagree with Berrin - and agree that this view is anti-Semitic.

My view is rather the one put forward by Chomsky and Finkelstein - that the Holocaust did happen (of course it did), but that it has been abused by Israel and used as an excuse to inflict human rights abuses and flout international law.

But, FD - come on. You made allegations against me which sounded like your accusing me of being an Anti-Semite ('intense hatred' you said).

Please tell me that you based this on something more solid than recollections of posts I never made.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · May 17, 2010

shafique wrote:
Berrin wrote:
Are you trying to say that jews caused (or even executed) the holocaust themselves in order to legitimize the establishment of Israel?

That's how it looks like and there is more to it than that.. they were carving the world in camps.. my tag line is that "Watch what is done, not what is said"..

On this post, I would disagree with Berrin - and agree that this view is anti-Semitic.

Why are you two continue your argument over me/mine?
I am entitled to my own opinion and can jolly well defend my view regardless of whether you two agree to it.
FD, just becouse Shafique and I have common belief in religion, doesn't make the two of us agree on all fronts in every issue. We too can have differences and learn to settle them, alright?

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

shafique wrote:The facts weren't disputed - you only gave excuses for the facts. Which fact is wrong/disputed, in your opinion and give us a link to the post where the fact is disputed in that thread, please.

Good thing the thread is still there. This was one of my responses:

Flying Dutchman wrote:you can keep on repeating them as many times as you want, my answers can be seen in previous posts. With most I disagree.

As I suggested before. If you have any comments regarding that thread, do it in that thread. If you any comment on people calling you in (serial) liar, there is also an existing thread for that.

shafique · May 17, 2010

As I said, despite the name calling, you are the one who has made unsubstantiated allegations.

You imagine and 'am sure' I have 'intense hatred' and support Holocaust denials.

In some ways, it is interesting that your reactions stem from the facts I listed about Israel, and your assertion that the facts are a reflection of an 'intense hatred'. I gave the link to the thread where the list of facts was drawn up and I've invited you to substantiate your belief that I was lying when I said no facts have been disputed, only excuses have been offered for those facts.

So, it appears you have no actual evidence to support your allegation that 1. I have 'intense hatred' and 2. deny the Holocaust.

Do you think that repeating slurs without evidence will eventually convince people your beliefs are correct?

I've invited your comments about Hamas' statement on the Holocaust in the other thread. I look forward to your explanations of the full statement there with the quotes you gave in this thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

shafique wrote:I would disagree with Berrin - and agree that this view is anti-Semitic.

QFT. Berrin is an anti-semite.

shafique wrote:My view is rather the one put forward by Chomsky and Finkelstein - that the Holocaust did happen (of course it did), but that it has been abused by Israel and used as an excuse to inflict human rights abuses and flout international law.

Yes, I see how you can agree with Chomksy. He also, like you, doesn't consider holocaust denial or denial of the gas chambers anti-semitic. Chomsky also maintains close relationships with some holocaust deniers.

shafique wrote:Please tell me that you based this on something more solid than recollections of posts I never made.

I also base it on the fact that you donot consider a nazi salute anti-semitic and that you donot consider holocaust denial as anti-semitic.

-- Mon May 17, 2010 8:39 pm --

Berrin wrote:Why are you two continue your argument over me/mine?
I am entitled to my own opinion and can jolly well defend my view regardless of whether you two agree to it.

Hey, Shafique just called you an anti-semite.

Berrin wrote:FD, just becouse Shafique and I have common belief in religion

Really? Do you also believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani was Mary, the morther of Jesus and became pregnant and delivered himself as Jesus and turned into the Promised Messiah???

shafique · May 17, 2010

I'm still trying to understand the reaction you had to my summary of the Israeli issue.

There is now a concerted campaign to fudge the issue and insist that the Palestinian issue is more complicated than it actually is.

FD and I had a long discussion on Palestinian diplomatic moves to declare independence and formally crystalise what is in UN resolutions about Israel.

In that thread, some facts were brought out which I listed
1. Israel has made no concessions in the peace negotiations - it has been all the Palestinians
2. Israel broke the truce and lied about why it was bombing Gaza and killing civilians (by saying Hamas broke the truce)
3. Israel have 78% of the land and Palestinians are settling for 22% - but Israel is reluctant to settle for this and seems to want more - specfically building more illegal colonies in the 22% that is not Israel.
4. Israel is unequivocably breaking international law in East Jerusalem by annexing it.
5. B'tselem say Israel in East Jerusalem is discriminating against the non-Israeli residents.

dubai-politics-talk/palestine-push-for-independence-t39413-270.html#p325228

These are facts that aren't disputed. (Rather excuses are always given for why Israel should be allowed to break international law etc - it's the 'mooslims who hate us' is a recurring theme)

FD took exception to this and stated
Flying Dutchman wrote:Well, Shafique, those are your ´facts´. Don´t include me. Your ´facts´ stems from an intense hatred. Like how Auschwitz is also not a fact for you. But lets not reiterate arguments made in another thread that are slightly off topic here.

So 1. I have 'intense hatred. and 2. Aushchwitz is apparently not a fact for me.

And to remove all doubt, FD stated:
Flying Dutchman wrote:You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.

Looking at the above again, I only mentioned your name in the context that you and I had a debate on the issue. I stated that the list of facts was a list I drew up and that the facts were not disputed, only excuses offered for them.

Yet, from this you accuse me of 1. Hatred and 2.denying the holocaust (Auschwitz is not a fact).

What in that list of facts led you to these conclusions? Separately, you seem to think my statement that none of the facts were disputed, only excused, is a lie. I can't see how you can say this without pointing to which fact is incorrect rather than excused by yourself - but I'm less concerned about being called a liar (people can easily see whether I wrote something untrue or not), but I'm intrigued into your logic that the list provided led you to write that I have 'intense hatred' (I presume you are saying I hate Jews or Zionists or something) and deny the Holocaust.

Can you at least explain your reaction and allegations of 'hatred' and Holocaust denial?

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

shafique wrote:Can you at least explain your reaction and allegations of 'hatred' and Holocaust denial?

The answer is what most of this thread is about until now. I have no desire to into circles. Just reread the posts.
As specified before you not finding a nazi salute anti-semitic nor holocaust denial, only strengthened my opinion.

shafique · May 17, 2010

I've re-read the posts (and quoted them to make sure there is no mistake). I see no evidence to explain your slur that I deny the Holocaust or that my statement of facts is a reflection of 'intense hatred'.

Your allegations are therefore baseless - and whilst I could join you in name-calling instead of debating, you'll excuse me if I decline to join you down there.

You, however, did state in this thread that Hamas does deny the Holocaust and is anti-Semitic - I've invited you to explain this view in light of the full statement given by Hamas in 2008 which contradicts what you attribute to them. The thread is waiting for your comment - I hope you're not avoiding it just because the facts don't fit in with your world view?

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · May 17, 2010

Like I stated before. An anti-semite can be recognzied by:

-Out of all proportion singling out Israel especially compared to any other party in the Middle East.
-Comparing Israel to the Nazi's
-Exaggerating the influence of the Jewish state on world affairs, like controlling the media and the financial markets
-Denying, minimizing, or trivializing the Holocaust.

Three strikes and you are out!

You fit the bill!

Rather by down here than join you in your hatred!

As for Hamas and the holocaust I stated want I wanted to state in this thread and we have discussed this already many times. You think Hamas is not anti-semitic, I think they are: based on their convenant and subsequent actions.

Bora Bora · May 17, 2010

Flying Dutchman wrote:Like I stated before. An anti-semite can be recognzied by:

-Out of all proportion singling out Israel especially compared to any other party in the Middle East.
-Comparing Israel to the Nazi's
-Exaggerating the influence of the Jewish state on world affairs, like controlling the media and the financial markets
-Denying, minimizing, or trivializing the Holocaust.

Three strikes and you are out!

You fit the bill!

Rather by down here than join you in your hatred!

Well, I'm 2 out of 4, so I guess that makes me a quasi-anti-semite.

As for hatred, you are so full of hatred towards Muslims, and I assume Arabs as well. Your post from yesterday that was deleted, as it should have been, spoke volumns of your hatred.

Clearly you must be Jewish, because no one else plays the victim so well. It's not the Jewish faith that I detest, it's the PEOPLE in ISRAEL that can't and don't want to live in peace. Israel could be Christian, Protestant, Hindu, Jehovah Witnesses - it doesn't change Israel's agenda.

And yes, Jews do control all forms of media, especially in the US, a well known fact. Israel, by virtue of the Jews in the US, has a chokehold on the US. If the US ever threw up it's hands and told Israel that it was on it's own, just how long do you think Israel would exist before being taken off the map? There would be a mass exodus of Israelis to the U.S. Israel would be begging to make peace in the region, give back land that it took and then some. Without the protection of the US, Israel would not exist today. In spite of the weapons Israel possesses, would Israel survive the onslaught of the surrounding countries? Unlikely. And you know what? the world would say Israel got what it deserved.

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