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Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang are charged with breaching Section 5 of the Public Order Act – causing harassment, alarm or distress. If convicted, they face fines of £2,500 each and a criminal record.

The Muslim woman was staying at the Bounty House Hotel in Liverpool, which is run by the Vogelenzangs, when a conversation arose between the hoteliers and their guest about her faith.

It is understood that among the topics debated was whether Jesus was a minor prophet, as Islam teaches, or whether he was the Son of God, as Christianity teaches.

Among the things Mr Vogelenzang, 53, is alleged to have said is that Mohammad was a warlord. His wife, 54, is said to have stated that Muslim dress is a form of bondage for women.

The conversation, on March 20, was reported by the woman to Merseyside Police. Officers told the couple that they wanted to interview them over the incident.

After being questioned on April 20, they were interrogated again three months later before being charged on July 29 with a religiously-aggravated public order offence. They appeared in court on August 14 and are now awaiting trial.

Mr and Mrs Vogelenzang do not accept that they were threatening or abusive in any way. David White, who is representing them, said that they believe they have the right to defend their religious beliefs.

Their case is being funded by the Christian Institute, which has backed a number of Christians in legal disputes.

A spokesman for the Institute said: "We are funding Ben and Sharon's defence because we believe important issues of religious liberty and free speech are at stake.

"In many instances we have detected a worrying tendency for public bodies to misapply the law in a way that seems to sideline Christianity more than other faiths."

A police spokesman said: "Merseyside Police can confirm that Benjamin Vogelenzang and Sharon Vogelenzang, both of Fazakerley, were charged with a religiously-aggravated public order offence on 29 July 2009. This follows an incident on 20 March 2009."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... guest.html

sorry, double post

I hate to approve of any posts by the OP but this is absolutely true, Christians are being marginalised in many urban areas of the UK because the government is scared stiff of the publicity of offending the people that shout loudest and have aggressive lobbies and protest groups (Muslims, Hindus, blacks, you name it). Individuals that squeal and play the race/religon card at every opportunity, and have 'community leaders' behind them to vocalise and rabble rouse. It's a fact.

By the way, 'black' is not a pejorative term in the UK so get off my back before you start.

Speedhump wrote:I hate to approve of any posts by the OP but this is absolutely true, Christians are being marginalised in many urban areas of the UK because the government is scared stiff of the publicity of offending the people that shout loudest and have aggressive lobbies and protest groups (Muslims, Hindus, blacks, you name it). Individuals that squeal and play the race/religon card at every opportunity, and have 'community leaders' behind them to vocalise and rabble rouse. It's a fact.

By the way, 'black' is not a pejorative term in the UK so get off my back before you start.

So sad! I am under impression of the movie "Shoot on sight" based on real situation when policeman shot innocent student in tube just after 9/11.

I still cannot find good place where my son will study English. I think Land of Arrogance is better then Englishstan in which the Land will convert 8-10 years later.

its all about showing respect to other religions and beliefs. The fact is that British people are :S well everyone knows what they are and thus they get themselves in such trouble. Sorry but I think if a muslim or a hindu made fun out of the Christ they would have certainly got in trouble too and its about reporting the matter to.

Obviously this woman got offended by the comments and the authorities did the right thing.

If someone said that too my mum or sister, instead of reporting them I would have beaten the crap out of them . I mean who do they think they are? They are in charge of their hotel, a guest walks in and they start making fun of the guest and her religion :S lol guess they dont want to earn money or run a business. What is it? Their hotel is only for christians or only for non-muslims? HMMMM

I thought if you were running a hotel, you would do your best to make sure that the guest feels at home!!! Obviously these two people dont know how to run a business and cant show respect or courtesy to their guests.

I also sometimes think that the UK has gone PC crazee over the religious issue. I recall the case of the British Airways employee who was told to put away a small crucifix and not have it on show; and also the injunctions not to have 'Christmas' lights/shows/plays but 'end of year' festivities to not offend the non-Christians.

Yes, there are some rabid mullahs out there, but most Brits (of all religions) are quite level headed, and I've actually found atheists who have stronger beliefs than run-of-the-mill Brit Muslims, Jews, Hindus or Jews (or whatever).

That said, the media do try and stir things up and sometimes the police etc are in a difficult situation - but many times, it does indeed appear to be a sense of proportion/common sense failure.

In this case, I really can't see the merits of a prosecution - even if we take the point of view of the 60 year old who made the complaint (and there is the curious fact that the convert lady spent a number of weeks in the establishment before deciding to come down for breakfast in a burqa!):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1216357/They-called-terrorist--Muslim-woman-hits-race-row-hotel-couple.html

The police say they can't comment on an on-going case, so if I'm charitable, I could give them the benefit of the doubt and assume there's more to this story than has made the press thus far (the story states that there were witnesses and that the debate was 'heated').

I do disagree with RB though - taking the mick (making fun of) Jesus wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. I dare say even some anti-semitic jokes would not necessarily have led to a complaint, us Brits tend to be able to laugh at ourselves and some of the funniest Jewish jokes have been told to me by Jews!

Cheers,
Shafique

rudeboy wrote:its all about showing respect to other religions and beliefs. The fact is that British people are :S well everyone knows what they are and thus they get themselves in such trouble. Sorry but I think if a muslim or a hindu made fun out of the Christ they would have certainly got in trouble too and its about reporting the matter to.

Obviously this woman got offended by the comments and the authorities did the right thing.

If someone said that too my mum or sister, instead of reporting them I would have beaten the crap out of them . I mean who do they think they are? They are in charge of their hotel, a guest walks in and they start making fun of the guest and her religion :S lol guess they dont want to earn money or run a business. What is it? Their hotel is only for christians or only for non-muslims? HMMMM

I thought if you were running a hotel, you would do your best to make sure that the guest feels at home!!! Obviously these two people dont know how to run a business and cant show respect or courtesy to their guests.

I can't believe you read the above properly if you made such a comment. Who said anyone made fun of any person or any religion? There was a debate about religion, that's what it says. And there were some misconceptions apparently, over which a Muslim (notorious for lacking any sense of proportion about these things) became offended enough to acually call police. The fact that the guest house owners have names which might have some Semitic background quite obviously could have been a factor in making the Muslim so vindictive.

You as usual just twist everything you read to fit your own views. Incredible.

Any discussion about religion with you would obviously end up in a fistfight.

shafique wrote:I also sometimes think that the UK has gone PC crazee over the religious issue. I recall the case of the British Airways employee who was told to put away a small crucifix and not have it on show; and also the injunctions not to have 'Christmas' lights/shows/plays but 'end of year' festivities to not offend the non-Christians.

Yes, there are some rabid mullahs out there, but most Brits (of all religions) are quite level headed, and I've actually found atheists who have stronger beliefs than run-of-the-mill Brit Muslims, Jews, Hindus or Jews (or whatever).

That said, the media do try and stir things up and sometimes the police etc are in a difficult situation - but many times, it does indeed appear to be a sense of proportion/common sense failure.

In this case, I really can't see the merits of a prosecution - even if we take the point of view of the 60 year old who made the complaint (and there is the curious fact that the convert lady spent a number of weeks in the establishment before deciding to come down for breakfast in a burqa!):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1216357/They-called-terrorist--Muslim-woman-hits-race-row-hotel-couple.html

The police say they can't comment on an on-going case, so if I'm charitable, I could give them the benefit of the doubt and assume there's more to this story than has made the press thus far (the story states that there were witnesses and that the debate was 'heated').

I do disagree with RB though - taking the mick (making fun of) Jesus wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. I dare say even some anti-semitic jokes would not necessarily have led to a complaint, us Brits tend to be able to laugh at ourselves and some of the funniest Jewish jokes have been told to me by Jews!

Cheers,
Shafique

It's strange, rudeboy goes to the UK and all he finds is hate. They do say you find what you look for.

Speedhump wrote:

rudeboy wrote:its all about showing respect to other religions and beliefs. The fact is that British people are :S well everyone knows what they are and thus they get themselves in such trouble. Sorry but I think if a muslim or a hindu made fun out of the Christ they would have certainly got in trouble too and its about reporting the matter to.

Obviously this woman got offended by the comments and the authorities did the right thing.

If someone said that too my mum or sister, instead of reporting them I would have beaten the crap out of them . I mean who do they think they are? They are in charge of their hotel, a guest walks in and they start making fun of the guest and her religion :S lol guess they dont want to earn money or run a business. What is it? Their hotel is only for christians or only for non-muslims? HMMMM

I thought if you were running a hotel, you would do your best to make sure that the guest feels at home!!! Obviously these two people dont know how to run a business and cant show respect or courtesy to their guests.

I can't believe you read the above properly if you made such a comment. Who said anyone made fun of any person or any religion? There was a debate about religion, that's what it says. And there were some misconceptions apparently, over which a Muslim (notorious for lacking any sense of proportion about these things) became offended enough to acually call police. The fact that the guest house owners have names which might have some Semitic background quite obviously could have been a factor in making the Muslim so vindictive.

You as usual just twist everything you read to fit your own views. Incredible.

Any discussion about religion with you would obviously end up in a fistfight.

Frustrating ain't it? He won't throw up an opportunity to bash homeland Britain, but gets vociferously defensive should anyone say anything detimental about Paksitan.

That's the part I could never reconcile.
Once you change ur passport, who are you and what is ur identity?

Speedhump wrote:

shafique wrote:I also sometimes think that the UK has gone PC crazee over the religious issue. I recall the case of the British Airways employee who was told to put away a small crucifix and not have it on show; and also the injunctions not to have 'Christmas' lights/shows/plays but 'end of year' festivities to not offend the non-Christians.

Yes, there are some rabid mullahs out there, but most Brits (of all religions) are quite level headed, and I've actually found atheists who have stronger beliefs than run-of-the-mill Brit Muslims, Jews, Hindus or Jews (or whatever).

That said, the media do try and stir things up and sometimes the police etc are in a difficult situation - but many times, it does indeed appear to be a sense of proportion/common sense failure.

In this case, I really can't see the merits of a prosecution - even if we take the point of view of the 60 year old who made the complaint (and there is the curious fact that the convert lady spent a number of weeks in the establishment before deciding to come down for breakfast in a burqa!):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1216357/They-called-terrorist--Muslim-woman-hits-race-row-hotel-couple.html

The police say they can't comment on an on-going case, so if I'm charitable, I could give them the benefit of the doubt and assume there's more to this story than has made the press thus far (the story states that there were witnesses and that the debate was 'heated').

I do disagree with RB though - taking the mick (making fun of) Jesus wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. I dare say even some anti-semitic jokes would not necessarily have led to a complaint, us Brits tend to be able to laugh at ourselves and some of the funniest Jewish jokes have been told to me by Jews!

Cheers,
Shafique

It's strange, rudeboy goes to the UK and all he finds is hate. They do say you find what you look for.

i wouldnt say its hate, I would say the brits misunderstand Islam. They tend to believe what the media tells them. I have read the news and I stand by my believes. Its a free world and everyone is entitled to their opinions. Personally I think these two people got off lightly. If they do get charged their license should be taken away.

To some people religion means the world to them. You can joke all you want about how a jew, a muslim and a hindu were in a hot air balloon, but the fact is that some people will get offended because religion is their life.

I try to find good people in UK, but all the good ones are out living in dubai

Misery Called Life wrote:

Speedhump wrote:

rudeboy wrote:its all about showing respect to other religions and beliefs. The fact is that British people are :S well everyone knows what they are and thus they get themselves in such trouble. Sorry but I think if a muslim or a hindu made fun out of the Christ they would have certainly got in trouble too and its about reporting the matter to.

Obviously this woman got offended by the comments and the authorities did the right thing.

If someone said that too my mum or sister, instead of reporting them I would have beaten the crap out of them . I mean who do they think they are? They are in charge of their hotel, a guest walks in and they start making fun of the guest and her religion :S lol guess they dont want to earn money or run a business. What is it? Their hotel is only for christians or only for non-muslims? HMMMM

I thought if you were running a hotel, you would do your best to make sure that the guest feels at home!!! Obviously these two people dont know how to run a business and cant show respect or courtesy to their guests.

I can't believe you read the above properly if you made such a comment. Who said anyone made fun of any person or any religion? There was a debate about religion, that's what it says. And there were some misconceptions apparently, over which a Muslim (notorious for lacking any sense of proportion about these things) became offended enough to acually call police. The fact that the guest house owners have names which might have some Semitic background quite obviously could have been a factor in making the Muslim so vindictive.

You as usual just twist everything you read to fit your own views. Incredible.

Any discussion about religion with you would obviously end up in a fistfight.

Frustrating ain't it? He won't throw up an opportunity to bash homeland Britain, but gets vociferously defensive should anyone say anything detimental about Paksitan.

That's the part I could never reconcile.
Once you change ur passport, who are you and what is ur identity?

mate what is your problem? Obiously its me . I only corrected you about some information you had about the planes in pakistan airforce and you getting pissed off???? lol take it easy mate. You and the RC were going on discussing about how pakistan has old technology blah blah blah and I commented with what I knew and you 2 took your purse out . I havent defended Pakistan. In fact if you look at some of my posts I have criticsed Pakistan and its people duh.

LOL now you want to discuss about my passsport, who I am and what my identity is :S lol for gods sake MCL we are discussing about a hotelier not RUDEBOY. If you are honestly obsessed about me I suggest you either write a thread about me or you go sit down on your desk and eventually write a story like you do about me

rudeboy wrote: You and the RC were going on discussing about how pakistan has old technology blah blah blah and I commented with what I knew and you 2 took your purse out . I havent defended Pakistan. In fact if you look at some of my posts I have criticsed Pakistan and its people duh.

OMG. How chaotic and ignorant you are. Why did you add this to this thread? It's definitely off-topic.

Producing Chinese aircraft that even developer doesn't want to have in the own army is a new technology?
I'll tell you what is new technology nowadays. The aircrafts of the 5th generation with Stelth technology F-22 and PAK-FA project. One country produced and another is on the final stage of project, the rest of the World don't even start thinking about that.
As far as I figer out aged F16 is advanced technology for you. MCL absolutely correctly compared it with MIG-29, not SU.
SU absolutely different aircraft. Your junk is worthy exchange for F-16 I think.

I'm done, tired of casting pearls before swine.

Red Chief wrote:

rudeboy wrote: You and the RC were going on discussing about how pakistan has old technology blah blah blah and I commented with what I knew and you 2 took your purse out . I havent defended Pakistan. In fact if you look at some of my posts I have criticsed Pakistan and its people duh.

OMG. How chaotic and ignorant you are. Why did you add this to this thread? It's definitely off-topic.

Producing Chinese aircraft that even developer doesn't want to have in the own army is a new technology?
I'll tell you what is new technology nowadays. The aircrafts of the 5th generation with Stelth technology F-22 and PAK-FA project. One country produced and another is on the final stage of project, the rest of the World don't even start thinking about that.
As far as I figer out aged F16 is advanced technology for you. MCL absolutely correctly compared it with MIG-29, not SU.
SU absolutely different aircraft. Your junk is worthy exchange for F-16 I think.

I'm done, tired of casting pearls before swine.

RC MCL started posting irrelevant things in this post. Read what MCL wrote before you go commenting about my post.

2ndly this is not the place to discuss about aeroplanes, but since you brought it up again, I didnt say that Pakistan has the BEST planes, all I said was that it has F-16s not F-15s which MCL clamied pakistan had. :S what is wrong with your peeople cant you bloody read my post. Read it try to analyse it, read it again and try to understand it again if you still cant understand it read it again All i did was to show the development pakistan and china were engaged in mate. I didnt say it was good nor bad.

as for the best technology, obviously do you think that USA will give pakistan a fully loaded f-16 even though Pakistan is helping USA fight the taliban? The answer is a big fat NO.

Man, this thread is infested with trolls ! Should be a bio hazard warning on it.

desertdudeshj wrote:Man, this thread is infested with trolls ! Should be a bio hazard warning on it.

Dude, is your real surname Kanelly I'm just curios.

No, not the last time checked.