Holy War Through Byzantium Eyes

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Holy War through Byzantium eyes Aug 17, 2010
An interesting article on the beliefs of Holy War in Orthodox Church.

I don't agree with some of the author's statements, particularly his comments on the Fourth Crusade. But perhaps it was the way the author worded what he said and said it through the perspective of how a citizen of Constantinople viewed the Crusade and Crusaders rather than historians - the Byzantines were always paranoid that the Western crusaders were plotting to conquer the Byzantine empire.

Anyways, I'll provide the first page or so of an eleven page essay:

For most civilized people the term holy war is a contradiction in terms. What religious
motive could possibly transform the widespread destruction and the slaughter of thousands
of human beings into a holy and meritorious act? But, as we know, religion has all
too often served as a pretext for violence. Before going any further, however, we should
agree upon a definition of holy war. Three criteria, I think, are essential. A holy war has
to be declared by a competent religious authority, the obvious examples being a Christian
pope or a Muslim caliph. The objective must be religious; again, two obvious examples
are the protection or recovery of sacred shrines or the forced conversion or subjection
of others to your religion. There could, of course, be other goals. Finally, those
who participate in the holy war are to be promised a spiritual reward, such as remission
of their sins or assurance of a place in paradise.1

In the world around the Mediterranean, two forms of holy war did emerge. First, the
Muslim jiha¯d. Much has been written about this, and I wish only to point out its salient
features.2 Jiha¯d is a religious duty for the Muslim community to propagate Islam, employing
coercion of various sorts as needed, until the whole world professes Islam or is
subject to its laws. At times, especially when the caliph, or other religious authority,
proclaims it, this obligation takes the form of armed conflict. Those who die in the
struggle are acclaimed as martyrs and are believed to go straight to paradise. The doctrine
of jiha¯d may be traced to the earliest days of Islam, although maybe not directly to Muhammad
himself. The jiha¯d did not become one of the five “pillars” of Islam, but it was
kept alive by preaching and the attractiveness of the ideal of martyrdom and paradise and
the more tangible rewards of booty and plunder. In essence, it was aggressive and bent
on conquest. Of course, not every war waged by Muslim powers, including those against
nonbelievers, was a holy war. Many were simply tribal, ethnic, or even national conflicts
whose roots often went back to pre-Islamic times.

In Western Europe the idea of a holy war developed later and for different reasons.
So much has been written about this that there is no need to enter into detail.3 First, we
must remember that what we call a crusade was, especially during the first century or
so, a pilgrimage, and those who took part in it were pilgrims; it was a holy journey (iter,
passagium), not a holy war. It was regarded primarily as defensive, that is, armed escorts
were to protect pilgrims on their way to the sacred shrines of Christendom and were to
recover or defend the holy sites in Palestine. This defensive character differentiated it
from jiha¯d, as did the fact that it did not advocate the forceful imposition of Christianity
upon others.......


http://www.doaks.org/publications/doaks ... s/CR03.pdf

event horizon
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Re: Holy War Through Byzantium Eyes Aug 17, 2010
Pray, tell us what your views on the Fourth Crusade are then, young one?

From what I've studied, it was a case of European Christians going to Constantinople and slaughtering their Christian brethren, looting the treasures and taking them back to Europe (where much of it is still on display - notably in Venice).

The Eastern Roman Empire (they never called themselves 'Byzantians' - just 'Romans') were appalled by the Barbarians from the West, by all accounts and tolerated them as a necessary military evil from what I read, and the accounts of the 4th crusade are gruesome (Biblical slaughter, you may say).

I agree with the definition of Holy War he gives, and the Crusades fit this to a 't'. Crusaders slaughtering in the name of Christ in a war called by a holy authority (in this case the Pope).

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Shafique
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Re: Holy War through Byzantium eyes Aug 17, 2010
No worse than the slaughter of Venetians and Genoese under Andronicus a few years prior to the fourth crusade.

But hey, I've had to previously blow your quaint beliefs of the fourth crusade out of the water before, so it's no surprise that you're relying on general statements of 'slaughter' now.

From what I've studied


That's some pretty funny stuff.

The Eastern Roman Empire (they never called themselves 'Byzantians' - just 'Romans')


Crusaders also never referred to themselves as crusaders. And the Byzantines didn't 'just' refer to themselves as Romans. At times, they referred to themselves as Hellenes.

But kudos to you for this gee-whizz fact.

Stick to not acting like an expert. It hurts the brains of people who actually studied the Fourth Crusade. Seriously.

it was a case of European Christians going to Constantinople and slaughtering their Christian brethren


You should keep studying. Seriously.

The Westerners didn't go to Constantinople to slaughter anyone. They were convinced to go by a young Byzantine prince, Alexios IV, to reinstate his blind father, Isaac (the second ?) as emperor of the Roman empire. His throne was usurped by his brother, Alexios III.

The Crusaders were persuaded because they had originally intended to travel to Egypt. But short on money because of low turnout, they were unable to pay the Venetians for the travel expenses. So, the young prince, who managed to escape his pursuers, steps in and offers to pay the crusaders their expenses if they first would travel to Constantinople and help him out of a bind.

Many crusaders totally rejected the idea and quite a few left - the rest had to be talked into the campaign and they grudgingly set off for Constantinople. So, after some skirmishes, Alexios III abandons ship and Isaac, the blind emperor, is reinstated along with his son as co-emperor.

Turns out, the prince wasn't as popular with his people and was unable to make good on his word. The crusaders camp in the city for a few months, but skirmishes eventually flare up and the crusaders are kicked out of the city. Starving, the crusaders launch a counter attack and manage to enter the city.

There was looting, but hey, it's not like the Muslims would loot Constantinople or anything like that ... oh wait.....

The Fourth Crusade was definitely not a religious conflict the way you managed to spin it as being.

Crusaders slaughtering in the name of Christ in a war called by a holy authority (in this case the Pope).


Slaughter was the norm back then for cities that held out. But again, we see yet another example of holding Christianity to higher standards than Islam. I mean, Muslims, Persians, etc never slaughtered people en masse or anything like that.

No sirree.
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Re: Holy War through Byzantium eyes Aug 17, 2010
event horizon wrote:No worse than the slaughter of Venetians and Genoese under Andronicus a few years prior to the fourth crusade.


So, at least we're not denying it was a bloodbath/slaughter. Cool - that's a great start. I was afraid you were going to spin the sacking of Constantinople and the looting of it's treasures as something that didn't happen!

The massacres of 1182 don't really help your case eh - Orthodox Christians killing Catholics in 1182 is sometimes used to explain why the Catholics slaughtered the Orthodox so brutally in the Fourth Crusade (1204). The 'Greeks killing Latins' or 'Romans killing Latins' is how it is often referred to, and hence the slaughter of the 'Greeks'/Orthodox by the Latins (Western Crusaders) is put into context (although never, in my reading, excused).



Glad we agree they weren't called Byazntines but Roman (and yes 'at times' they may have called themselves 'Chrsitians', 'Helenes' etc)

event horizon wrote:The Westerners didn't go to Constantinople to slaughter anyone.


And yet they did slaughter the Christians of Constantinople. So, let's see why these Christian Crusaders did end up slaughtering their Christian brethren..


event horizon wrote:There was looting, but hey, it's not like the Muslims would loot Constantinople or anything like that ... oh wait.....


Surely, not a 'what aboutery' defence? ;)

So, there was looting and slaughter of Christians... and the excuse is that the Christian Crusaders were hungry and desperate?

event horizon wrote:The Fourth Crusade was definitely not a religious conflict the way you managed to spin it as being.


How have I spun the Fourth Crusade?

Christians slaughtering Christians and looting Constantinople can hardly be justified on religious grounds - and I've never said it could, perhaps you're confusing me with something you read on Jihadwatch? But then again, Catholic Christians killing Orthodox Christians is cited by historians as a feature of the slaughter (Edit - see next post, for example).

event horizon wrote:
Crusaders slaughtering in the name of Christ in a war called by a holy authority (in this case the Pope).


Slaughter was the norm back then for cities that held out.


Interesting excuse. However, I was just making the point that the Christians slaughtering in the name of Christ after being called to go to war by the Pope EXACTLY meets the definition of Holy War in the original article above. (It doesn't say that the slaughter has to be 'unusual' for it to be a Holy War, does it?)


But.. is that it?

So the Fourth Crusade did involve the slaughter of Christians of Constantinople by Western Christians - but they 'didn't set out to slaughter Christians' and hey, slaughter is normal and looting is also done by Muslims..

Pretty thin ice there young loon, pretty thin ice. But hey, at least you're back to just giving us a loon spin rather than inventing stupid arguments like 'Crusades weren't Holy Wars'! :shock:

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Holy War through Byzantium eyes Aug 17, 2010
On reflection, eh referring to the sacking of Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade as 'some looting did occur' makes me wonder whether he's being deliberately obtuse (we know he's not a Brit, so wouldn't be engaging in some amusing understatement).

So, for clarity - let's have a look at a description of what the Crusaders inflicted:

The Latin soldiery subjected the greatest city in Europe to an indescribable sack.

For three days they murdered, raped, looted and destroyed on a scale which even the ancient Vandals and Goths would have found unbelievable. Constantinople had become a veritable museum of ancient and Byzantine art, an emporium of such incredible wealth that the Latins were astounded at the riches they found.

Though the Venetians had an appreciation for the art which they discovered (they were themselves semi-Byzantines) and saved much of it, the French and others destroyed indiscriminately, halting to refresh themselves with wine, violation of nuns, and murder of Orthodox clerics.

The Crusaders vented their hatred for the Greeks most spectacularly in the desecration of the greatest Church in Christendom. They smashed the silver iconostasis, the icons and the holy books of Hagia Sophia, and seated upon the patriarchal throne a whore who sang coarse songs as they drank wine from the Church's holy vessels. The estrangement of East and West, which had proceeded over the centuries, culminated in the horrible massacre that accompanied the conquest of Constantinople.

The Greeks were convinced that even the Turks, had they taken the city, would not have been as cruel as the Latin Christians.

The defeat of Byzantium, already in a state of decline, accelerated political degeneration so that the Byzantines eventually became an easy prey to the Turks. The Crusading movement thus resulted, ultimately, in the victory of Islam, a result which was of course the exact opposite of its original intention.[22][23] According to Choniates, a prostitute was even set up on the Patriarchal throne

Speros Vryonis in Byzantium and Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Cru ... tantinople


Calling this 'some looting' is a bit like saying Pol Pot had a few people killed! :shock:

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Shafique
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Re: Holy War through Byzantium eyes Aug 17, 2010
Thanks eh, the essay by Dennis is indeed interesting. He states the Byzantine view of Jihad in Islam as fact, and as this topic is adequately addressed elsewhere, I won't comment on this view any more (what Medieval Christians thought of Islam in general is more a reflection on their prejudices rather than reality, so a bit like loons of today - but as I said, that's for another thread).

So rather than attacking the strawman he constructs about Jihad, let's see what the Catholic author has to say about the actions and nature of the Crusades.

the Crusades were proclaimed by the highest religious authority in theWest, the pope; they were directed toward a religious end, the protection of fellow Christians in the East and the recovery and defense of the holy places; and those who took part were promised religious rewards, particularly the remission of sin.


Pilgrimage they [the Byzantines] understood and warfare they understood, but the conjoining of the two they did not understand. They would have been utterly appalled at the preaching of St. Bernard and his call for the extermination of the infidel (delenda penitus), as well as his assertion that killing an enemy of Christ was not homicide, but malecide.10 And what would they have thought of the rule he drew up for the Templars, monks who wielded lethal weapons in battle?11


Click here for what St Bernard said about how glorious it is to kill in the name of Christ:
http://www.autentico.org/oa09254.php


Dennis continues:
The Byzantines soon came to believe that the warriors from theWest had nothing less in mind than the conquest of the empire, and the events of 1204 proved they were right. Ultimately, they came to hate the Latins as much or even more than the Muslims. If the Latins ever referred to their eastern expeditions as “holy war,” that term, it is clear, would not have been appreciated by the Byzantines.


And for the crusaders themselves:
the majority of the
Crusaders gained no strategic, economic, or political advantage, especially during the first hundred years. They marched off to the East for what they regarded as a religious act, if not a duty. For them, this was surely a holy war.



Pretty clear - Crusades were a Holy War. Thanks for the references - St Bernard is particularly enlightening!

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Shafique
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Re: Holy War through Byzantium eyes Aug 17, 2010
Nonsense. You claimed previously that the crusaders killed Byzantines in the name of Christ, revealing your own ignorance as to the actual reason for the sack.

In reality, the crusaders's actions are more understandable when it's shown they were fighting for survival and only wound up in Constantinople at the request of Byzantine royalty and to pay off the Venetians so they could actually travel to Egypt.

shafique wrote:So, for clarity - let's have a look at a description of what the Crusaders inflicted:


It certainly was not any worse than looting carried out by Muslims during that era.

But then again, you did justify your prophet's slaughter of entire villages because 'everyone else was doing it!'.

So please, don't accuse others of 'what-aboutery'.

He states the Byzantine view of Jihad in Islam as fact, and as this topic is adequately addressed elsewhere, I won't comment on this view any more (what Medieval Christians thought of Islam in general is more a reflection on their prejudices rather than reality, so a bit like loons of today - but as I said, that's for another thread).


The author explains the actual view of Jihad in the portion I quoted from and re-summarizes the Islamic view of Jihad in his conclusion.

Feel free to explain the 'real' view of Jihad beyond 'no, he's wrong, I'm right.'
event horizon
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Re: Holy War Through Byzantium Eyes Aug 17, 2010
Ah, 'what about-ery' raises it's head again - and you recognise yourself engaging in it, but can't help yourself!!

How funny.

Hey, if you want to go over the pasting you got the last time we discussed supposed war crimes, let's ressurect the relevant threads.

You've been comprehensively punked by the quotes above (not least from the essay you quoted) which roundly state that the Crusades were religious wars. As for the Fourth Crusade - I'm still surprised you're trying to equate the barbarity of the sacking of Constantinople with what went before or after. Loons and their refusal to accept evidence!!

Did you even read what I posted?

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Shafique
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