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Health care in Israel has been discussed in here a few times before. We have already seen that the Israel haters, well, just hate. No matter how many people and babies have been saved by the Israeli health system, with no regards to background, haters just hate, and it blinds them. As is quite known the Israeli health care system is one of the best in the world, with new discoveries that better lives globally, on a very regular basis.

A week ago I was sort of shocked that this hate also reached a mainstream newspaper in Holland. An article about the Israeli health care system, more or less portraying the Israeli health care system as a ("nazi") baby factory, where only perfect (jewish) babies are accepted. Oh, the article was written by a Dutch woman who gave birth in Israel. She complains the health care is too good in Israel. Yes, really. She complains about all the tests. The punch line: Israeli doctors discovered a virus with her that could damage the baby. Still she complains about. Sometimes you wonder how really dumb people can become because of hate.

Today, an English article wrote about it. How did she call the fact her baby came out all fine and healthy in the end:

His personal revenge on the Israeli health system.

http://honestreporting.com/dutch-daily-the-chosen-people-have-to-be-perfect/

IMO there can't be enough test performed on the expectant mother.

The mother can refuse such tests, as written in the article, but it is in her and the baby's best interests to allow them. On the results of the tests the mother (and father) can make an informed decision as to whether they continue with the pregnancy, or can be fully prepared for any birth defects.

I would say this is excellent health care provided by an excellent health service.

In the UK we have the National Health Service, which is free at the point of delivery. What people don't realise is that it is quite basic, albeit free.

There is no comparison to the treatment provided on the NHS and that provided privately. A routine scan is performed at 20 weeks on the NHS, but for £80 an expectant mother can have a wide range of test to establish that the baby is fit and healthy, privately.

Personally I would pay the £80 and have the peace of mind that my baby was a healthy one. If the tests showed a major problem I would have no hesitiation in terminating that pregnancy. That is a matter of choice for the mother.

More power to the Israeli Government for providing people with the information to make that informed choice.
It is not about wanting perfect babies but preventing parents from facing life with a severly disabled child, when it can be prevented.

Interesting story FD - on a number of levels.

First I read the piece on 'Honest Reporting: Defending Israel from Media Bias' site - the name of the site shows what it's mission is. The article is cross posted from 'Missing Peace' who are:

Who are the people behind Missing Peace
Missing Peace is an initiative of ex-members from the Israel Facts Monitor group in Israel, a group mainly consisting of Dutch immigrants; members of WAAR (a Dutch monitor organization) and Israeli Middle East- and media experts.

The allegations are that the article in a Dutch Christian* newspaper (*as the articles themselves state) and portrays the Israeli system as a 'nazi' baby factory. That is indeed serious. It alleges it talks about eugenics and the Israeli system being 'too good'.

Apart from distortions and lies the article contained many accusations and insinuations which are reminiscent of classic anti-Semitic rants.

So, there are allegedly lies and anti-semitic rants apparently - also very serious allegations.

Thanks to Google Translate, I then read the article itself:
http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4720/Jodendom ... zijn.dhtml

When comparing the claims in the article with what is actually written, I'm left feeling that the title of this thread should be 'Hypers.. hype..' - pretty much every claim turns out to be deliberate spin.

The opening summary set's the scene (and Google translation struggles a bit with some sentences, obviously)

Being pregnant in Israel is almost a military operation. Countless ultrasounds and blood tests should provide the perfect baby, nothing should be left to chance. The state requires healthy babies, and too much. You have a wife but can handle that. A personal story.

And what follows is a personal story about her pregnancy.

She makes a valid point about the CMV virus and how she felt what she was told was 'scaremongering' and was proved right in the end. Her view was that the doctors were being too cautious - and was being pressured into doing further tests which may have harmed her baby - and describes how another lady was advised to abort her foetus by the first gynaecologist, and went to a second who didn't share the view - and the child was healthy.

The author rightly says that the threat was 'a guess' - she states that only about 8% of babies suffer ill effects if a mother is tested positive with CMV - 40% of babies have the virus transmitted and 20% of these have ill effects. 92% of babies are healthy.

This is the 'discovery of a virus that could harm the baby'.

On top of that the author points out that the above is for detection of the virus early on on pregnancy - in later pregnancy the test is not even done in other countries, and the risk to the baby is even lower.

Finally, I looked for the 'revenge to the health system' quote.

FD's quote is a complete sentence, and says it refers to the fact he came out healthy. So FD is saying the fact he was healthy was the 'revenge':

Flying Dutchman wrote:How did she call the fact her baby came out all fine and healthy in the end:

His personal revenge on the Israeli health system.

In reality, the context and full quote is different. She quotes a doctor doing late ultrasounds (after 5 months) to check for physical abnormalities in toes etc as saying 'Mothers want perfect babies'.

Now compare FD's quote with the section in the article:

Finally we had that little boy in the arms that had passed all tests. When we have fingers and toes admired, we saw that a toe was too small. His personal revenge on the Israeli health, a toe that despite everything he had managed to keep hidden nine months.

So the author is talking about how the baby had a smaller than usual toe which had not actually been picked up in the tests - and that this was the 'personal revenge' - and note that the full sentence was not quoted by FD or the context. (But note that the 'Honest Reporting' website DID include the previous sentence about toe being too small - but not the full sentence about 'keeping hidden for nine months' - the spin that the revenge was perfect baby is not HR fault, but FD's description/spin. Amazingly, FD has selectively quoted a translation that selectively quotes the article!! )

I saw no reference to anything that looked like 'nazi' comparisons - rather a description of a system that in this lady's case she felt was being over-testing. It was a personal story.

'Honest Reporting' falls short of the title. Disappointed, but not surprised.

Moral - check the references and allegations carefully when being told that Israel is being attacked in the media.

Cheers,
Shafique

PS - the other allegations about misrepresenting the Israeli child welfare systems etc are also hard to find in the original and appear to be deliberate spin on the part of 'Honest Reporting' - as are the alleged 'lies'.

Other blatant spin include the statement in the report that the author

In her article she admits that CMV can cause severe damage to the fetus.

Which is a blatant distortion of what she wrote (see above about the 40% etc)

Similarly the accusations of 'misquoting' etc - they are all quotes which are in context. Her main points are brought out in quotes from doctors and fellow mothers. Hardly misquotes at all.

shafique wrote:Thanks to Google Translate, I then read the article itself:

You run a whole article through google translate and come up with a different interprutation than a native speaker? Interesting.

I ran the whole article to check out what the two pro-Israeli sites alleged. FD seems to have just picked up what these sites reported.. down to the 'just last week' comment.

I suspected that FD was spinning the story - and was proved right. This is not the first time he's done so - selectively quoting something and giving the totally wrong impression. Given his form and the seriousness of the allegations - I thought I'd read the whole allegations and the underlying article.

Hype, not hate.

Cheers,
Shafique

Just two different interputations of one story. A native speakers and Google translate.

Err no - there's what the author wrote and there is the spin.

What is funny is FD's spin on the spin - as highlighted in red.

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts,”

Cheers,
Shafique

What is interesting is that the commenters of this article also picked up the (sarcastic) references to the nazi's.

Did any of the commentators selectively mis-quote and misrepresent the article when they made their comments?

I also looked carefully for the nazi-like comments - unless you take the quotes from Israeli doctor and mother as 'nazi-like', there were none. No mention of Nazis at all.

I'm amazed at the bizare need to manufacture hatred against Israel. This always seems to come up when Israel's very real crimes and real issues relating to the Military Occupation are brought up. Smoke and Mirrors.

In this case, an attack against a mother's personal story in a Dutch Christian newspaper. Sad really.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, you have been always very found of comparing Israel to the nazi's. The commenters are native Dutch speakers, they know.

I think you mean 'fond' instead of 'found'. And again, I note that this is yet another example of you trying to divert attention away from your failures. In this case, your deliberate misrepresentation and a selective quote of a selective quote. The article does not mention Nazis at all.

As for commentators - I went through the 67 comments and only 2 or 3 commentators made any link to Nazi/eugenics and even then they were challenged by Dutch speakers (Martien Pennings makes the first explicit link, and is challenged by Maryam 1, and lottyro is the second to explicitly make a link). Most of the comments are about the use of the term 'chosen people'. The term is used in the article by the Israeli doctor.

The link with Nazism is not in the article - as Maryam rightly points out:

the link between excessive control and what the term chosen people is made by an Israeli gynecologist. I also really understand the wrath of the phrase "chosen people" absolutely not! It has nothing to do with Nazi Germany, but with the Jews, Israel, like himself: JHW's chosen people, JHW's own people. Be a people rather angry that rights-appropriated to the authority of their god who sets them above all others - theocracy.

(..het verband tussen de wat overdreven controle en de term uitverkoren volk wordt gemaakt door een Israëlische gynaecoloog...Het heeft niets met nazi-Duitsland te maken maar met hoe joden, Israëlieten, zichzelf graag zien: JHW's uitverkoren volk, JHW's eigen volk...)

FD - as for your misrepresentation of the quote you gave in the OP - did you just not understand what you copied from, or did you just not read the article?

Cheers,
Shafique

FD wrote:
What is interesting is that the commenters of this article also picked up the (sarcastic) references to the nazi's.

Did you know FD, İsraelies really are paranoid with this Nazi analogy, so much so that back in 2011,Uri Ariel, a member of the Knesset became a sponsor of a Knesset bill which would ban the use of Nazi references in public.LOL Life must be tough going in israel

--- Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:50 pm ---

Well anyways FD here is a news that you can't twist and turn which shows to the world that ethnic cleansing is still in full fledged in Israel, no matter how democratic they claim that they are ....

http://972mag.com/high-court-okays-citi ... abs/32802/

It must be tough going being a Shi'ite in Saudi too. I see they killed another one last night. It's a damn shame when you are killed by one of your own isn't it?

Berrin wrote:Did you know FD, İsraelies really are paranoid with this Nazi analogy, so much so that back in 2011,Uri Ariel, a member of the Knesset became a sponsor of a Knesset bill which would ban the use of Nazi references in public.LOL Life must be tough going in israel

Nazi symbolism is a touchy subject indeed Israel. I think they are still debating the law, or a new version. In certain European countries nazi symbolism can also be prosecuted. Do in Rome as the Romans do. Donot walk around with a Muhammed cartoon T-shirt in Dubai, and donot walk around in Israel with a swastika T-shirt. Common sense.

Berrin wrote:Well anyways FD here is a news that you can't twist and turn which shows to the world that ethnic cleansing is still in full fledged in Israel, no matter how democratic they claim that they are ....

Ethnic cleaning for giving foreigners no right to citizenship? Really? What I understand from the case is that the couple could stay in Israel, but the Palestinian would not be granted citizenship or permanent residency.

The problem for you FD is that the article does not mention Nazism and the website you quoted from grossly distorted and misrpresented the article.

Your quote and misrepresentation in the OP compounded this.

Why are you picking on a Dutch mother describing very real personal incidents and who gives quotes from Israeli doctors and mothers?

Cheers,

Shafique

She refers to having babies in Israel for 'The Chosen People' as a militairy operation and that she compares it to factory assembly line work. The Israeli state demands many perfect children according to her. She refers to Jewish genetics, she refers to the holocaust, the many tests and she refers to the IPC. You donot need to be Einstein were she is coming from.

On top of that I think she is hightly disturbed. She prefers the Dutch way of giving birth (which is the natural way without pain killers), because she likes pain, the pain is great she states.

Somehow this seems to be a common theme among certain people: bashing the Israeli health care system, while they helped greatly.

She quotes an Israeli doctor (Edit: this should read Israeli mother) using the phrase 'Chosen People' - there's a difference.

Did you actually read the original article? It appears that your OP and subsequent posts are just re-gurgitating what the pro-Israeli website alleges (and which turns out to be hype).

Why did you feel the need to misrepresent the quote from her article?

(I also note you're misrepresenting what she said in the article when it comes to epidurals etc - it is a choice given in the UK and Dubai, where my kids were born, whether to have an epidural or not. Many women choose not to have one - I'm not sure why you're using this decision against the author!! )

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:She quotes an Israeli doctor using the phrase 'Chosen People' - there's a difference.

No, she is not quoting an Israeli doctor. There is no quote from an Israeli doctor in the article stating such thing.

(I also note you're misrepresenting what she said in the article when it comes to epidurals etc - it is a choice given in the UK and Dubai, where my kids were born, whether to have an epidural or not. Many women choose not to have one - I'm not sure why you're using this decision against the author!! )

No, I am not misrepresenting. She says she likes pain in a psycho way.

Besides that she is insinuating that less than perfect children are aborted, or that there is very strong pressure to abort.

It is worrisome that such an article appears in a mainstream European newspaper. First time I came ascross it, at least in a Dutch newspaper.

Did you read the article before you posted the OP? You seem to have quoted just from the pro-Israeli site which misrepresents the article.

Why did you misrepresent the quote you gave in the OP (and your trying to deflect this into you later quote about pain will not work)?


You seem to also be reading a different article if you think a lady choosing not to have an epidural is weird or strange. Speak to mothers who have had children outside of Israel and you'll see that it isn't strange at all.

As for the quote about 'Chosen People' - is from this:

The leader of my daughters kindergarten gave me the number of hers. "Thanks to him, he still," she said to her 3-year-old orphan son. She had first had a doctor who thought she had to abort the pregnancy. "What is that in this country?" I sighed. "The Jewish people are the chosen people," she replied. "And that should be perfect."

De leidster van mijn dochters crèche gaf me het nummer van de hare. ..."Het Joodse volk is het uitverkoren volk", antwoordde ze."En dat moet perfect zijn." Kinderen moeten niet alleen perfect zijn: wat alles nog meer beladen maakt, is de Israëlische vraag naar véél kinderen.

The doctor is quoted saying that mothers want perfect children:

Toen ik de dokter vroeg naar de meerwaarde daarvan, zei hij: "Misschien zijn er lichamelijke afwijkingen, bijvoorbeeld aan de teentjes of vingertjes. Moeders hier willen perfecte kinderen." In Israël zijn ziekenhuizen en zwangerschap onlosmakelijk met elkaar verbonden.

So, the quote about chosen people is from another mother in Israel, and not the doctor, the doctor talks about perfect babies.

What is anti-Semitic about the author quoting the mother? She doesn't use the term elsewhere in the article - just in the headline and summary at the beginning.

Cheers,
Shafique

FD wrote:

The Israeli state demands many perfect children according to her. She refers to Jewish genetics, she refers to the holocaust, the many tests and she refers to the IPC.

she is insinuating that less than perfect children are aborted, or that there is very strong pressure to abort.

Well she might be right but for the unknown reasons she doesn't know..such as regarding what is written in the following article..
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/wrongf ... for-not-b/

If the rate of law suits increase, then of course it will eventually become state policy to adopt rigorous tests and forced abortion of less than perfect fetuses..

shafique wrote:You seem to also be reading a different article if you think a lady choosing not to have an epidural is weird or strange.

She way she states it and the reason is weird yes.

I'm guessing you haven't been to any ante-natal classes then FD. Women are given explanations and a choice over whether to have epidurals, and many choose not to have the epidurals and have a 'normal' birth (but use 'gas and air' to take the edge of the pain).

However, you haven't explained why you chose to misrepresent the quote in your OP - you stated something that was completely wrong, the quote you gave was actually in reference to her baby having an imperfect toe, rather than reflecting a fully healthy baby as you stated. Any explanation for this misrepresentation?

As I said in my first post - the objections seem to be for objections sake, and all rely on spinning what is not actually said in the article. Certainly nothing vaguely referencing Nazis is mentioned.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:I'm guessing you haven't been to any ante-natal classes then FD. Women are given explanations and a choice over whether to have epidurals, and many choose not to have the epidurals and have a 'normal' birth (but use 'gas and air' to take the edge of the pain).

Natural birth in Holland is without gas. I like the didea of natural birth, but my opinion is quite irrelevant and humble, it's up to the lady IMO. I have never heard a woman saying she loves the pain, she is looking forward to the pain, that she wants it (which it basically what the author is saying). That kind of stuff makes the "crazy-b1tch-alarm-bells" going off in my head.

I must have missed that bit in the article - perhaps the Google translate was a bit off, which particular quote from the article are you referring to when you say she says 'she loves pain'?

(I can only see where she says 'Besides, I did not want the standard pain killing injection in the back' - Daarnaast wilde ik niet de standaard pijnstillende prik in de rug.- i.e. the epidural - 'and discussions about epidurals aren't given in Israel unless you don't want one'. Google doesn't show any line which has her saying she loves pain or anything like that.)

Indeed, it seems she is saying that Dutch midwives are taught in the Centre to say that 'pain is fine' or natural. (In het bevalcentrum waren ze van de Hollandse verloskundigen-lijn: pijn is fijn.)

I also note that the pro-Israeli website did not use this 'the woman was crazy' excuse for the article, but accused her of anti-semitism etc by misrepresenting what was written (they didn't mention her 'loving pain').

May I ask you yet again, what was the reason for you misrepresenting the quote you gave in the OP?

Cheers,
Shafique

Just checked in on this thread again. How many times did you edit your post Shaf? And are you done?

shafique wrote:I'm guessing you haven't been to any ante-natal classes then FD. Women are given explanations and a choice over whether to have epidurals, and many choose not to have the epidurals and have a 'normal' birth (but use 'gas and air' to take the edge of the pain).

However, you haven't explained why you chose to misrepresent the quote in your OP - you stated something that was completely wrong, the quote you gave was actually in reference to her baby having an imperfect toe, rather than reflecting a fully healthy baby as you stated. Any explanation for this misrepresentation?

As I said in my first post - the objections seem to be for objections sake, and all rely on spinning what is not actually said in the article. Certainly nothing vaguely referencing Nazis is mentioned.

Cheers,

Shafique

Who said you couldn't get an education on DF? Now we have lessons in child birth!

Men should not attend anti-natal classes IMO. They should stay away from the business end during child birth.

Thanks for your input BM (Edit - I mean 'professorgreen' ) - but FD has to justify why he grossly misrepresented the quote he gave in the OP, and also where he's got this notion that the lady 'loves pain'.

It seems to be a whole load of hype from top to bottom - no mention of Nazism in the article, but a lot of hype on the pro-Israel website.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:Thanks for your input BM (Edit - I mean 'professorgreen' ) - but FD has to justify why he grossly misrepresented the quote he gave in the OP, and also where he's got this notion that the lady 'loves pain'.

It seems to be a whole load of hype from top to bottom - no mention of Nazism in the article, but a lot of hype on the pro-Israel website.

Cheers,

Shafique

Ask nicely and in a normal way and I will answer all your question. Until you have failed to do so. Real English people are famous for their curtousy.

Courtesy is indeed a feature of us English.

But let's not give you another excuse for not answering the question posed.

Let me see how I first asked it, and I will make it more courteous as requested:

shafique wrote:FD - as for your misrepresentation of the quote you gave in the OP - did you just not understand what you copied from, or did you just not read the article?

Ok, I can see why you think this is a bit brusque and haven't answered it. Had you said before, I could have asked more nicely.

But let's be clear about the specifics of what I'm referring to:

Finally, I looked for the 'revenge to the health system' quote.

FD's quote is a complete sentence, and says it refers to the fact he came out healthy. So FD is saying the fact he was healthy was the 'revenge':

Flying Dutchman wrote:How did she call the fact her baby came out all fine and healthy in the end:

His personal revenge on the Israeli health system.

In reality, the context and full quote is different. She quotes a doctor doing late ultrasounds (after 5 months) to check for physical abnormalities in toes etc as saying 'Mothers want perfect babies'.

Now compare FD's quote with the section in the article:

Finally we had that little boy in the arms that had passed all tests. When we have fingers and toes admired, we saw that a toe was too small. His personal revenge on the Israeli health, a toe that despite everything he had managed to keep hidden nine months.

So the author is talking about how the baby had a smaller than usual toe which had not actually been picked up in the tests - and that this was the 'personal revenge' - and note that the full sentence was not quoted by FD or the context.

Ok, let me ask the question nicely:

My dear Flying Dutchman, could you please give us an explanation for why you stated that the quote was in response to the baby being healthy, when it was clear from the 'Honest reporting' website and indeed in the original article that the mother was referring to her son being born with an abnormal toe despite passing all the pre-natat tests and checks for normality.

The Honest Reporting site selectively quoted from the article and misleadingly did not give the full quote, and you selectively quoted from them which compounded the error.

I await your explanatin, good sir.

Cheers,

Shafique

Fail, your question is insinuation. Try again. It can't be that hard to show common curtousy, I would think.