Hamas: In Their Own Voices

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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 15, 2010
Well done eh, it appears this time you did read the article from Le Monde, but still insist on believing the Israeli spin.

And introducing another selective quote just exposes the fact that the whole loon argument is based on spin and can't actually produce a complete, comprehensive and clear statement that contradicts the clarification made by Hamas - you guys have to rely on loon interpretations (and ask 'what could they mean') or go back decades and ignore the facts in the Le Monde article above.

Loons and their fantasies!

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 15, 2010
Nowhere is Hams denouncing or rewriting its convenant, only a more detailed description of the (phased) destruction of Israel.
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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 15, 2010
What confused you about Hamas' clear and categoric statement that it is not anti-semitic, doesn't deny the Holocaust and is only engaged in a political (i.e. not religious) struggle with the occupying power, Israel?

Why insist in living in the 80's when Israel seemed to be better at convincing people that the Palestinians weren't the victims?

As I said - the loon argument relies on Memri selective quotes and can't deal with the comprehensive quotes from Hamas.

As Le Monde rightly pointed out:
Many commentators maintain that Hamas’s radical stance is due entirely to its Islamist world view. As the researchers Bruno Guigue (1) and Khaled Hroub (2) have often pointed out, this analysis of Hamas policy is based only on its charter, published in August 1988.

Hroub has analysed in detail three key documents published by Hamas since the charter: its autumn 2005 election manifesto, Change and Reform; its March 2006 draft programme for a government of national unity; and the government programme presented by the Palestinian prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, to the new parliament on 27 March 2006. Hroub points out that Hamas is now a different organisation from the Hamas that took shape at the beginning of the first intifada in December 1987.


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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 15, 2010
According to Hroub, Hamas now claims to be concerned about political freedom: freedom of expression, press and association; pluralism; the separation of powers; and due electoral process. It also wants to build a proper civil society and uphold minority rights.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 15, 2010
Indeed, that is the subject of this thread - 'Hamas, in their own voices' (and not what fanbois etc wish to believe).

The categoric statement of Hamas confirms the Le Monde article from 3 years ago. I thank you.

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 15, 2010
Obviously what Hamas claims and what it does in reality are two completely different things. I cannot believe that the writers of the article really believe Hamas is implementing freedom of speech and democracy.
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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 15, 2010
shafique wrote:you guys have to rely on loon interpretations


What interpretations are you referring to ?

Hamas *banned* teaching the Holocaust to Gazan students and the reasons given for the ban was that the Holocaust was a Zionist lie.

How much of a loon do you need to be to ignore real life examples over propaganda pieces written to gullible Westerners ?

-- Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:09 pm --

Flying Dutchman wrote:Obviously what Hamas claims and what it does in reality are two completely different things. I cannot the believe that the writers of the article really believe Hamas is implementing freedom of speech and democracy.


Exactly. My head dropped when I read that from the rag shafique posted.

Hey, Hamas is concerned about free speech !

Believe it, some guy says so.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 16, 2010
Obviously, loons can't handle the truth when presented with clear, unambiguous and categoric statements:
But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.


The plight of our people is not the product of a religious conflict between us and the Jews in Palestine or anywhere else: the aims and positions of today's Hamas have been repeatedly spelled out by its leadership, for example in Hamas's 2006 programme for government. The conflict is of a purely political nature: it is between a people who have come under occupation and an oppressive occupying power.


It is so funny that young loon starts a thread called 'Hamas: in their own voices' and then they go into denial when Hamas' clear, categoric and clear statements are given to them.

Ahh, it is fascinating to see loons squirm so! The argument from the loons now is simply 'Oh, but but but but but Hamas are liars and don't do what they say.' So funny guys! :lol:

But you do realise you've admitted that what Hamas says contradicts the loon versions! Punked. Again. Comprehensively!

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 16, 2010
You mean the statements of a single politician writing to Westerners in a bid to garner support is dismissed as propaganda in the context of official Hamas policy in preventing the Holocaust from being taught and the reason given by several named and quoted Hamas officials was that the Holocaust was a myth ?

Seriously, I can counter any allegations against the EDL by quoting 'clear', 'complete' and 'comprehensive' statements from their website too.

Your argument is so lame, it boggles the mind that you apparently are serious in using it.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 16, 2010
Yes, I mean the categoric statement made by the Hamas official stating what Hamas' views are - as well as the 2007 article from Le Monde stating pretty much the same thing (i.e. that loons are living in a fantasy world created by the likes of Guru Spencer and Memri)

Loons can't handle real evidence - but insist on repeating their fantasies. Your fumbling and desperation is sooo funny.

BTW - have you had a look at http://spencerwatch.com yet?

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 16, 2010
And yet, Hamas bans the teaching of the Holocaust at UN run schools in the Gaza strip - with several Hamas officials explaining the reason for this was because the Holocaust was a myth.

shafique wrote:Loons can't handle real evidence - but insist on repeating their fantasies. Your fumbling and desperation is sooo funny.


dubai-politics-talk/edl-views-violence-and-racism-t42611.html

I think you would make Jon Stewart's head explode with your 'logic'.
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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 16, 2010
Hamas' problems with Israel is as much political as anti-semitism is political.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 16, 2010
That does seem to be what loons desperately want people to believe - so I can imagine how frustrated you must be that Hamas has come out and clearly exposed your fantasies to be just that.

I mean, Hamas can't be clearer:
The plight of our people is not the product of a religious conflict between us and the Jews in Palestine or anywhere else: the aims and positions of today's Hamas have been repeatedly spelled out by its leadership, for example in Hamas's 2006 programme for government. The conflict is of a purely political nature: it is between a people who have come under occupation and an oppressive occupying power.


'Hamas: In their own voices' indeed.

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 16, 2010
Nazis were secular, not religious.

What's your point ?

Hamas is clearly an anti-Semitic organization and there is no shortage of evidence showing this.

What are you going to do for your finale ? Quote David Duke to show that the KKK are not racist ?

Rolls eyes.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 16, 2010
I totally agree that in loonville things look different.

I fully understand your frustration - in your world you think Muslims can't live in peace:
event horizon wrote:Peace with Islam and Muslims is impossible. The only time Muslims seek peace is when they need to reload.


So, I fully understand your frustration when Hamas' clear statements expose your loon beliefs to be just out-dated fantasies. You must be kicking yourself you started a thread called 'Hamas: In their own voices', only to have Hamas' clear statement quoted to you!

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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 16, 2010
shafique wrote:That does seem to be what loons desperately want people to believe


Thats actually what people claiming Hamas' fight against Israel is political believe and claim that in an article:

Hroub:

The roots of any anti-Jewishness in the Arab society are entirely political, in response to aggression
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 16, 2010
However, your theory is punked by the fact that 'Hamas: In their own voices' is categoric and unambigious:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.




The plight of our people is not the product of a religious conflict between us and the Jews in Palestine or anywhere else: the aims and positions of today's Hamas have been repeatedly spelled out by its leadership, for example in Hamas's 2006 programme for government. The conflict is of a purely political nature: it is between a people who have come under occupation and an oppressive occupying power.



Pretty clear, categoric and anti-loon!

First quote above shows they aren't anti-semitic (just anti-Zionist) and secondly, the conflict is therefore political. It is legitimate to resist an occupation. Mandela did it, for example.

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 16, 2010
Compare abstarcts of the ANC charter with Hamas':

ANC:

only a democratic state, based on the will of all the people, can secure to all their birthright without distinction of colour, race, sex or belief


Hamas:

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews)

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement

Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam


As Hroub argues that anti-semitism is political, so does Hamas.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 17, 2010
Thanks FD - a great example of selective quoting and ignoring evidence.

Let's compare the truth with the loon spin, again:
First Hroub:
Hroub has analysed in detail three key documents published by Hamas since the charter: its autumn 2005 election manifesto, Change and Reform; its March 2006 draft programme for a government of national unity; and the government programme presented by the Palestinian prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, to the new parliament on 27 March 2006. Hroub points out that Hamas is now a different organisation from the Hamas that took shape at the beginning of the first intifada in December 1987.


Now what Hamas says, in their own voice:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.


So, categorically not anti-Semitic (whether political, religious etc )

The plight of our people is not the product of a religious conflict between us and the Jews in Palestine or anywhere else: the aims and positions of today's Hamas have been repeatedly spelled out by its leadership, for example in Hamas's 2006 programme for government. The conflict is of a purely political nature: it is between a people who have come under occupation and an oppressive occupying power.


At least we now seem to agree that the conflict is purely political.

Pretty clear, categoric and anti-loon!

First quote above shows they aren't anti-semitic (just anti-Zionist) and secondly, the conflict is therefore political. It is legitimate to resist an occupation. Mandela did it, for example.

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 17, 2010
Right, because Hamas hasn't recently tried to pass laws prohibiting women from dancing in public or riding as passengers on motorcycles.

:roll:

You quote an op-ed piece by a politician and you can't figure out why, in light of actual events in Gaza (such as the prohibition of teaching of the Holocaust because the Holocaust was a myth according to Hamas officials) that the non-loons here will obviously dismiss some politician's claims.

I think even desert thinks your argument is beyond dumb.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 17, 2010
I understand fully your frustration and insistence on citing spin and snippets as evidence of loon theories.

The fact remains, you've been comprehensively punked by the categoric, complete and clear statement of Hamas. Saying that a Hamas politician is a politician is the most funny argument yet - Hamas is a political party and the clear, comprehensive statement came from an official Hamas politician. Your spin is from blogs and memri - all who selectively quote.

Punked.

Comprehensively.

By 'Hamas: In Their Own Voices' no less.

(No wonder you're not happy).

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 17, 2010
People who think a nazi salute or quoting from the elders of zion is not anti-semitoc but political, of course also claim Hamas attitude towards jews is purely political.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 17, 2010
Thanks for sharing your view of the discussion - can't see how that addresses the clear, categoric and complete Hamas statement that exposes your views as just wishful thinking.

'Hamas: In their Own Voices' - eh must regret naming this thread like that. I guess he wanted to write 'Hamas: as imagined by loons, forget the facts'. ;)

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 17, 2010
And yet you refuse to address the fact that Hamas bans the teaching of the Holocaust and justified their actions by saying the Holocaust was a myth - so it makes sense to not teach it.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 17, 2010
Nope, far from it young loon. I've made ample references to the loon slurs which rely on Memri translations and selective quotes.

Regarding the Holocaust, Hamas is pretty categoric:
But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.


Which parts of this clear statement led you to believe Hamas denies the Holocaust or is anti-Semitic?

You have to scurry and quote Memri spin to make your case, not 'Hamas: In their own voices'!

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 17, 2010
Again, Hamas *ACTUALLY* banned the teaching of the Holocaust and claimed the Holocaust was a myth.

This is a fact that was acknowledged by Reuters, AP, Hamas and the UN affiliated schools that previously were teaching the Holocaust in their classrooms in Gaza.

You can't hide behind Memri.

Your excuses and arguments are getting more pathetic.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 17, 2010
Your desperation to ignore the truth is so painful it hurts. If you let go of that straw, you'll drown! ;)

I asked you quite a straightforward question about the categoric quote:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.


Which parts of this clear statement led you to believe Hamas denies the Holocaust or is anti-Semitic?

What confused you about the statement or my question?

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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 17, 2010
Hamas TV says the holocaust is a Zionist conspirancy.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126028

Anything to try to cover up the origins of Palestinian nationalism:

The Mufti of Jerusalem (who before WWII was also responsible fro starting many progroms against jews in the mandate):

http://books.google.nl/books?id=Dunx_i1P6fMC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=Our+fundamental+condition+for+cooperating+with+Germany+was&source=bl&ots=uo6pywAdjx&sig=TAsUpD3aR40vEYREL4SIFbAKQhQ&hl=nl&ei=TJRqTNzqJsyhOOjt3Y0J&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAQ#

“Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got from Berlin was: ‘The Jews are yours.’”
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Re: Hamas: In their own voices Aug 17, 2010
Careful FD.

Shafique might delete your post, he did mine.
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Re: Hamas: In Their Own Voices Aug 17, 2010
More loon spin guys?

Hamas' statement is so clear:
But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.


I asked eh:
Which parts of this clear statement led you to believe Hamas denies the Holocaust or is anti-Semitic?

What confused you about the statement or my question?


Why can't loons answer questions (and now eh is fantasising about me deleting posts! How desperate can you get?)

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