Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs

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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 23, 2010
Ok, so in what way was the NYC bomber affected by the concept of Martyrdom in Islam?

And isn't the number of Muslims being killed (and considered as martyrs) not a reflection of those killing them? Isn't the much lower number of suicide bombers merely a reflection that there's a lot of killing going on?


And I make the point again - in the US and Europe, there are more terrorist attacks by non-Muslims than by Muslims. The Hutaree example is a good one - they are a bunch of apocalyptic Bible literalists who were planning to kill US citizens - because of their religious belief. Nutters, to be sure. Now - from the stats I've seen, in the US there are more of these Christian nutters than Muslim fundamentalist nutters who agree with eh's view of Islam. Certainly there are more carrying out attacks (abortion clinics and the like) - and fortunately the majority result in few if any deaths.


Edit - and concerning Goldstein, in his case he was part of a US terrorist organisation - the JDL - who had carried out bombings against US citizens on US soil. He emigrated from the US and carried out a terrorist attack in Hebron. He received his religious indoctrination in NYC. Which shows that the Bible has been used (or misused) to justify terrorism. Now, given that the Bible is a much more violent book than the Quran - and given that historically much more violence has been carried out in the name of the Bible (notably against Jews), then don't all the criticisms being laid against Islam and the Quran apply even more to the Bible?

Logically, yes - but you'll easily come up with explanations that we shouldn't taint a whole religion because of the actions of the radical extreme or historic episodes. Muslims employ exactly the same arguments.

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Shafique

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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 23, 2010
shafique wrote: So, perhaps Islam has changed since the 60s?

Or could it be that the method of attack has more to do with weapons available and the perceived need to attack?


Who gave them all that weapon including sophisticated one like Stingers? It was US who delivered all that weapon to Mojaheddins in Afghanistan and trained kind Moslems in many camps on the territory of Pakistan to fight against Soviet troops in 80s. After Russians left Afghanistan those Moslem militia transfered operation to India and now start expansion to US and Europe.

They use numerous brothers in faith in these countries, who are always ready to open the gates of the city from inner side.

Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
Red Chief wrote:
shafique wrote: So, perhaps Islam has changed since the 60s?

Or could it be that the method of attack has more to do with weapons available and the perceived need to attack?


Who gave them all that weapon including sophisticated one like Stingers? It was US who delivered all that weapon to Mojaheddins in Afghanistan and trained kind Moslems in many camps on the territory of Pakistan to fight against Soviet troops in 80s. After Russians left Afghanistan those Moslem militia transfered operation to India and now start expansion to US and Europe.

They use numerous brothers in faith in these countries, who are always ready to open the gates of the city from inner side.

Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.


What do you think RC, should we clean up the mess we started? :D 8)
Would be the responsible thing to do right? :mrgreen:

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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
You should ask this question to the American bi@@@, sorry friends. They have extensive experience in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I'm sure they are going to carry on very soon. :bom:
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
Chief, fairy. The Soviets put people from the Communist party top echelons in nuclear reactor control positions in Tjernobyl without giving them nuclear university education or reactor control experience. Remember? :idea:

Claims he's innocent. ;)

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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
Isn't it amazing how shafique will make endless excuses for Muslim terrorists in the US and Canada, such as the Toronto jihadist group that planned on blowing up targets in Toronto and beheading the prime minister or the group of converts who recently tried to carbomb a synagogue in New York (with shafique desperately trying to claim that they were all set up, blah blah blah, on this very forum) ?

The fact that shafique needs to repeatedly bring up this Christian militia group (for the fourth time, by my count) shows how very few radical Christians there really are, when, on the other hand, I have no trouble on posting on actual terrorist attacks carried out by fanatical Muslims on a *daily* basis.

I mean, daily Muslim terror attacks are so common, that I only try and to post only on Muslim suicide bombers.

And let's forget about foiled Muslim terror plots, such as the recent one in Indonesia to attack a hotel and take Indonesian politicians hostage, similar to the Mumbai jihad hotel attacks.

The amount of global jihad terrorism speaks for itself. This thread perfectly illustrates the games that fanatical Muslims, such as shafique, play doing their darnedest to downplay Islamic terrorism and extremism and exaggerate other forms of terrorism.
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
Yeah, you have valid points EH. Shafique just loves his faith based utopia so much, he has difficulties to part with it. What would you do if you were a pious believer and found out that your religion is just as crap as any other?

Ahh well, it keeps him busy. Us included. ;)
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
Hey rob, have you gotten around to explaining why Mr Shahzad was attending an Islamic terror camp if he wasn't particularly religious and if Islam 'had nothing to do with the attack' ?

I know that you don't believe shafique's lame arguments, but I would like to hear some pretty impressive mental gymnastics.

Shafique is currently (on the other thread) copy-pasting his responses without elaborating any further and ignoring the actual questions/points raised.

We'll see how he tries to explain Shahzad's own statement that he had taken on the cause of al-Qaeda and Islam. Oh, and that he was inspired by religious radical cleric, Anwar Al-Awlaki.

But remember...

...Islam had nothing to do with the attack.
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
Indeed, Islam had nothing to with the Tim McVeigh emulation attempt. I'm still waiting to hear what 'martyrdom' indoctrination had to do with this attack on his fellow Americans? If he was indoctrinated by Al Qaeda - it didn't work too well did it. At least the numpty Richard Reid and the pants bomber tried to blow themselves up (and would have been candidates for Darwin awards had they not been trying to kill others as well).

And RC has a good point - the CIA were instrumental in helping Al Qaeda tool up and train up.
In fact, anyone remember Rambo 3 when at the end the Taliban come and save Rambo, or that James Bond movie with Dalton, which had Art Malik as the 'noble' Taliban saviour. (Back then they were labelled 'Mujahedeen' and were the good guys - the Russians were the baddies then.. ;) )

But hey, when proof is missing that Islam is to blame - why not just let 'feelings' and Bible camp prejudices dictate the 'facts'? I

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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
event horizon wrote:The fact that shafique needs to repeatedly bring up this Christian militia group (for the fourth time, by my count) shows how very few radical Christians there really are, when, on the other hand, I have no trouble on posting on actual terrorist attacks carried out by fanatical Muslims on a *daily* basis.


You're forgetting that I also brought up the American Jewish terrorist group the JDL, one of whose members exported his terrorism to the Middle East

concerning Goldstein, in his case he was part of a US terrorist organisation - the JDL - who had carried out bombings against US citizens on US soil. He emigrated from the US and carried out a terrorist attack in Hebron. He received his religious indoctrination in NYC. Which shows that the Bible has been used (or misused) to justify terrorism. Now, given that the Bible is a much more violent book than the Quran - and given that historically much more violence has been carried out in the name of the Bible (notably against Jews), then don't all the criticisms being laid against Islam and the Quran apply even more to the Bible?

Logically, yes - but you'll easily come up with explanations that we shouldn't taint a whole religion because of the actions of the radical extreme or historic episodes. Muslims employ exactly the same arguments.


And the crux of the matter is that there are statistically more nonMuslim terrorist attacks in the US and Europe, and yet in the cases where Christians and Jews are involved, the Bible isn't blamed by Madrassa-camp trained numpties.

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Shafique
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
RobbyG wrote:Chief, fairy. The Soviets put people from the Communist party top echelons in nuclear reactor control positions in Tjernobyl without giving them nuclear university education or reactor control experience. Remember? :idea:

Claims he's innocent. ;)


Your spelling of that weird place in Ukraine shows how little you know about the situation there, probably as little as situation with DEWA in Dubai. :blackeye:

I have no idea why you raise this issue in this topic as there has been no evidence that Muslim militia were involved. Sir Shafique... oh sorry Mr. Chuck (my bad) will be definitely not happy with that. :wink:
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
event horizon wrote:Hey rob, have you gotten around to explaining why Mr Shahzad was attending an Islamic terror camp if he wasn't particularly religious and if Islam 'had nothing to do with the attack' ?

I know that you don't believe shafique's lame arguments, but I would like to hear some pretty impressive mental gymnastics.

Shafique is currently (on the other thread) copy-pasting his responses without elaborating any further and ignoring the actual questions/points raised.

We'll see how he tries to explain Shahzad's own statement that he had taken on the cause of al-Qaeda and Islam. Oh, and that he was inspired by religious radical cleric, Anwar Al-Awlaki.

But remember...

...Islam had nothing to do with the attack.


I don't think its necessary, cause you and I see the obvious. Shafique knows the connection but prefers to deny it. :P

There is no need for mental gymnastics, cause the facts speak for themselves. Why prove the obvious? :blackeye:

-- 24 May 2010, 12:48 --

Red Chief wrote:
RobbyG wrote:Chief, fairy. The Soviets put people from the Communist party top echelons in nuclear reactor control positions in Tjernobyl without giving them nuclear university education or reactor control experience. Remember? :idea:

Claims he's innocent. ;)


Your spelling of that weird place in Ukraine shows how little you know about the situation there, probably as little as situation with DEWA in Dubai. :blackeye:

I have no idea why you raise this issue in this topic as there has been no evidence that Muslim militia were involved. Sir Shafique... oh sorry Mr. Chuck (my bad) will be definitely not happy with that. :wink:


Sorry to bring up old memories Chiefert. I watched the documentary yesterday. Remains darn interesting to see once again. Chernobyl, Tjernobyl (dutch)... no muslim militia there...yet ;)

Praise to the Russian miners response who shuffled sand below the reactor core and the army reservists who went up the reactor building to shuffle the graphite cilinders over the edge @ 10.000+ rontgen per hour... :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSRC1_OZ ... re=related (Part 1 of 8 for inquiring minds among us)
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
Here are some 'commonly' known 'facts':

The most commonly repeated claims about Muslims are that “everyone knows” that most or all terrorists are Muslims, and there are no Christian and no Jewish terrorists (or terrorists of any other religious stripe), and that Muslims are inherently violent.

Everyone also knows that Muslims are not equivalent to real Americans,
that they are the enemy within, and a fifth column,
that good Muslims can’t be good Americans,
that they are not a part of our American heritage,
that they are all militant,
that Islam makes Muslims “backward”,
that Muslims have made no contribution to the West,
that Islam is “of the devil”,
a Crescent menace,
and an “evil encroaching on the United States”, and not a religion.

Everyone knows that this is a Christian nation,
which everyone knows the Muslims are trying to take over,
starting with getting an Eid stamp which is the first step towards shariah law, and by purposefully having more children than others to increase their numbers.

Everyone knows that Muslims have no respect for the Constitution.

Everyone knows that Muslims are given a pass by the elite media.

It’s “us versus them”.

They don’t speak out against extremism or terrorism, and even those Muslims who do speak up or seem moderate are simply lying or practicing taqiyyah.

The problem is that what “everyone knows” is wrong. These self-righteous and incorrect statements are usually followed by a demand that the Muslim community do something about whatever is the false flag of the day or face the inevitable consequences.



Everyone 'knows' these facts.

Stay tuned, I may be posting something that tackles the above - but I've done my quota of new threads for the day :lol:

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
You are distorting the facts Shafique. You just singlehandedly threw out the muslim baby with the bathwater. :D

I have to distance myself from that discriminating fact of defeat. :blackeye:
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
I was actually just quoting a list that was embedded in another article.

However, there are a number of 'beliefs' in that list which some here have presented as facts. In fact, it would be interesting to see which ones people agreed with me are false!

BTW - did you have a think about my question concerning what the link was between a failed car bomb attempt and 'martyrdom' indoctrination?

As I showed in the new thread set up today (double standards) the last terrorist suicide bomber in the US was a Catholic (who used a plane as his weapon of suicide terrorism) - and this happened only a few months ago. Was he 'indoctrinated' by his relgious book to commit this act of suicide terror?

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Shafique
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
Well, besides the fact that Shahzad went to a Taliban/Al Qaida training camp in Waziristan, Paki where they preach and teach bombs for 72 virgins...hm?

The region is quite known for its wonderful clerics that preach like the Hamas children channel to strengthen the militia's opposing the Paki alliance with the US. You know how divided they are, right? You have to start 'training' the brain of the youth rather early, to keep costs low.

Indoctrinate the basis of how bad the West (US/Israeli conflict) is, and you only need a trigger to snap a loser. Don't you love religion? I don't.

I have told you before some time ago, that most conflicts are all related to religion and convictions in my assessment of wars and horror portrayed on this globe. We should put an end to these mad martyr-like fookers and teach them how to think rationally. That dark pit is becoming lunatec, if it wasn't already in the Middle Ages with its reasoning.

Dubai excluded. Must be the expat influence. lol :D
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
I have told you before some time ago, that most conflicts are all related to religion and convictions in my assessment of wars and horror portrayed on this globe.


Not really, the worldview in all civilizations before modern times came from religion. The wars and horror portrayed on this globe is the part of uncontrollable greed and selfishness came with advancement in technology/science, as in the same case of terminator seed producers . Some unfortunate people have to pay the price of keeping the share holders happy. Now if those share holders based their opinion on religion, do you think the secularist paradigm a pseudo-religion could take over as a new world view end destroy peoples life while it also claims that it contributes..

-- Mon May 24, 2010 4:49 pm --

We should put an end to these mad martyr-like fookers and teach them how to think rationally.

I think it's not the martyr-like fookers that should think rationally, rather it's those who think that there is no end as to how much they can earn and own, and how many people they think they can control and slave..
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
Berrin wrote:
I have told you before some time ago, that most conflicts are all related to religion and convictions in my assessment of wars and horror portrayed on this globe.


Not really, the worldview in all civilizations before modern times came from religion. The wars and horror portrayed on this globe is the part of uncontrollable greed and selfishness came with advancement in technology/science, as in the same case of terminator seed producers . Some unfortunate people have to pay the price of keeping the share holders happy. Now if those share holders based their opinion on religion, do you think the secularist paradigm a pseudo-religion could take over as a new world view end destroy peoples life while it also claims that it contributes..


Yeah sure, keep training that little backward peanut of yours. Fortunately, there are people who reason with logic and brought us the material wealth and science who made life, especially in the West, much easier.

If we had religion as our basis for succes, we all be living in the Middle Ages still...

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Your region still poses the greatest evidence of that faith based madness as measured in conflicts and human suffering. You almost never agree on anything (consensus), other than war and finding an enemy to combat.
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
and here we have a good picturesque morals of an atheist who thinks that the world is his..No wonder why some have to suffer..
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
What hat did you magically wonder that reasoning from?

The world is ours, but you just proved that you won't identify progress as it is, other than seeing me as your enemy. Sad soul.

Its the people with certain convictions (from all corners of the globe) who do harm, not science.
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
The world is ours, but you just proved that you won't identify progress as it is


Quite right..The West is now undergoing a very, very severe intellectual crisis. The reason why people are not aware of it is because of the power of technology and the military might of the West. It is like the end of the Roman Empire. As long as the Roman legends were leading in Libya, nobody thought that something was wrong. It is a very similar situation. Western philosophy is now at a dead end. Even Heidegger said, Western philosophy ends with me. There is a philosophical crisis and a religious crisis as a result of that. After that comes the environmental crisis, which is not solved unless the West changes completely the way it lives, its worldview, and they don’t want to do it. So they use cosmetics all the time. Look at the Gulf of Mexico now. It is a great tragedy of human history. Nobody wants to talk about it. So the West is also experiencing a very, very large crisis, and I’d say it is suicide for us to try to blindly copy the West at this stage.
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
With ours I meant you and me. Ours = not the West. ;)

Yes, Western standard of living is declining rapidly, but mainly because the economic philosophy has and is been abused for political purposes and central monetary authorities (FED) who dominate economic power as such. This will all change in the coming years and decades ahead, just as any empire has fallen on its knees. Inflation of the money supply never brought wealth. Politics is the culprit, not the private sector.

Nevertheless, the mercantile and entrepreneurial spirit, together with enlightenment, where the church was seperated for influencing the progress of science, brought us leaps of prosperity. Its the ground of the Western hegemony. Religion was detrimental to understanding the world we live in. It became second order, if not last in my view.

What people won't talk with you about the oil spill? In the West we talk about it on a daily basis and in America there are congressional hearings about the response of BP. The entire world focusses at the Gulf of Mexico as the worst disaster since the Exxon Valdez oil spill unfolds...

Are you talking about your secluded, media regulated domestic environment? Our media is spitting flames over it. So I don't know what you are talking about.

You shouldn't copy the West. Please follow your own guidelines, as they give us new insights in how to do things right and wrong. Just like you need to pick up the good pieces from the West. The profit model named capitalism is one of them. ;)

If you don't like it, try barter and desert roaming again. :D
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
What is this all got to do with your boasterizm?
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
Berrin wrote:Western philosophy is now at a dead end. Even Heidegger said, Western philosophy ends with me. There is a philosophical crisis and a religious crisis as a result of that.


Haidegger is not the first or last one who said that. If you don't know anybody else it does not mean that nobody exists. Jacques Derrida was definitely one of them and lived after Martin Heidegger.

Philosophy and Religion have nothing in common. The latter say what is the truth but the former what is not the truth but myth. In this terms Philosophy is more close to science.
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
Berrin wrote:What is this all got to do with your boasterizm?


You're missing the point. It portrays your narrow vision. 8)
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
RobbyG wrote:Well, besides the fact that Shahzad went to a Taliban/Al Qaida training camp in Waziristan, Paki where they preach and teach bombs for 72 virgins...hm?



Ermm - yes. Let's assume you are right and his trip to Pakistan did entail being brainwashed into thinking that he would get 72 virgins if he blew himself up. (Perhaps you are right?)

What has that got to do with him doing a Tim McVeigh and saying that this was retaliation for Pakistan being bombed?



RobbyG wrote:The region is quite known for its wonderful clerics ...


Yes, 'well known' - that's a bit like 'everyone knows' isn't it? The region is also well known for drug addicts and mad mullahs. But, again, I can't see the link between this and the attempt to do a Tim McVeigh (badly).


Is there a link that is not based on an assumption of what this guy may or may not have heard in Pakistan (rather than, say, over the internet?)

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Shafique
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
shafique wrote:Indeed, Islam had nothing to with the Tim McVeigh emulation attempt. I'm still waiting to hear what 'martyrdom' indoctrination had to do with this attack on his fellow Americans? If he was indoctrinated by Al Qaeda - it didn't work too well did it. At least the numpty Richard Reid and the pants bomber tried to blow themselves up (and would have been candidates for Darwin awards had they not been trying to kill others as well).

And RC has a good point - the CIA were instrumental in helping Al Qaeda tool up and train up.
In fact, anyone remember Rambo 3 when at the end the Taliban come and save Rambo, or that James Bond movie with Dalton, which had Art Malik as the 'noble' Taliban saviour. (Back then they were labelled 'Mujahedeen' and were the good guys - the Russians were the baddies then.. ;) )

But hey, when proof is missing that Islam is to blame - why not just let 'feelings' and Bible camp prejudices dictate the 'facts'? I

Cheers,
Shafique


Too bad the Taliban didn't exist until the early nineties and the facts do not show that the CIA helped al-Qaeda or had any direct connection with the Afghan Arabs (who were not necessarily al-Qaeda, in any event).
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Re: Hamas TV tells children that they will become martyrs May 24, 2010
Haidegger is not the first or last one who said that. If you don't know anybody else it does not mean that nobody exists. Jacques Derrida was definitely one of them and lived after Martin Heidegger.


That's fine with me...

Philosophy and Religion have nothing in common.

Well they have, even on the DF. :P

Latter say what is the truth but the former what is not the truth but myth. In this terms Philosophy is more close to science.
Really?
Have a look at this..
Myth, Religion, and Philosophy
http://www.friesian.com/myth.htm

Hey Chief do you know about Tolstoy's confessions to Yelena Vekilov and Valeria Porohova?

How about this?
“Please regard me as a Mohammedan…”

The great Russian writer and thinker who contributed a lot to the Russian literature and history is more famous as a writer, his philosophical views and works that reflect his ideas of God, soul, knowledge, love, the meaning of life, etc. are much less known.

The continuing quest for the meaning of life, the moral ideal, the covert general regularities of existence as well as his spiritual and social criticism run through all his creative work. Since the 1870-ies he pays more and more attention to the subjects of death, sin, penance, and moral revival.

His extraordinary way of thinking was in most cases incomprehensible to the Russian society of those days.

He was excommunicated and committed to anathema, his friends and acquaintances turned away from him. In 1910, at the age of 81, Lev Tolstoy left home and died on the way to the station “Astapovo”.

Why was the end of his life so sad and where was he going after leaving home? Perhaps, some of his letters will throw light upon it.

Here is what he wrote about the Church:

“The world was doing what it wished to do and was letting the Church keep pace with it providing as good explanations of the meaning of life as it could possibly think of. The world was setting its own mode of life which was entirely different form the teaching of Christ, and the Church was inventing allegories which would suggest that people who violated the law of Christ lived in keeping with it. As a result, the world started living the life which was worse than that of pagans, and the Church came to approve of it. Moreover, it claimed that such life was what the teaching of Christ consists in”.

Yasnaya Polyana, March, 1909

The Russian woman who married the Muslim E. Vekilov, wrote to Tolstoy that her sons wanted to convert to Islam, and asked for his advice. This is what the writer answered her:

“As far as the preference of Mohammedanism to Orthodoxy is concerned…, I can fully sympathize with such conversion. To say this might be strange for me who values the Christian ideals and the teaching of Christ in their pure sense more that anything else, I do not doubt that Islam in its outer form stands higher than the Orthodox Church. Therefore, if a person is given only two choices: to adhere to the Orthodox Church or Islam, any sensible person will not hesitate about his choice, and anyone will prefer Islam with its acceptance of one tenet, single God and His Prophet instead such complex and incomprehensible things in theology as the Trinity, redemption, sacraments, the saints and their images, and complicated services…”

Yasnaya Polyana, March, 15th, 1909

We can adduce another letter of his which explains his world outlook which formed as a result of his long painful search for the truth.

“I would be very glad if you were of the same faith with me. Just try to understand what my life is. Any success in life- wealth, honour, glory- I don’t have these. My friends, even my family are turning away from me.

Some- liberals and aesthetes- consider me to be mad or weak- minded like Gogol; others- revolutionaries and radicals- consider me to be a mystic and a man who talks too much; the officials consider me to be a malicious revolutionary; the Orthodox consider me to be a devil.

I confess that it is hard for me… And therefore, please, regard me as a kind Mohammedan, and all will be fine”.

Yasnaya Polyana, April, 1884
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
event horizon wrote:Too bad the Taliban didn't exist until the early nineties and the facts do not show that the CIA helped al-Qaeda or had any direct connection with the Afghan Arabs (who were not necessarily al-Qaeda, in any event).


I have never made the statement that US helped Al-Qaeda or Talliban. So I don't understand which valid point I made. I raised question about supporting kind Muslim with sophisticated weapon and training on the territory of Pakistan.

Do you proclaim that US also was out of the game but Stingers were Russian propaganda only.
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Re: Hamas TV Tells Children That They Will Become Martyrs May 24, 2010
Don't tell me that Rambo III was not real! ;)
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