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Unbelievable, but true...

Fine her, she’s a witch!
by Yossi Gurvitz

Rabbinical court penalizes a woman for witchcraft. And no, it’s not Monty Python

The rabbinical court of Haifa ruled against a woman whose husband claimed she practiced witchcraft in their home. The court acquitted the woman of refusing to cook for her husband, as the latter committed adultery, which the court found constituted mitigating circumstances in the woman’s dereliction of culinary duties.

The woman denied being a witch, but she failed a polygraph test – which is not accepted as evidence in regular Israeli courts. Presumably the duck test was unavailable. The court, composed of rabbis Yitzhak Shmuel Gamzo, Michael Bleicher, and Meir Kahan, admitted they found no legal precedent for reducing the woman’s ktuba – the money her husband pledges her in case of divorce – presumably since the Halachaic punishment for witchcraft is death. They nevertheless relied on the dubious book of Rabbi Nachman of Breslau, which is not generally considered to be law book (much more of a moral tale) to deprive her of some 90,000 NIS. Impressive."

And no, this isn’t mythical medieval England. This is Israel, 2011. And the court is funded by the government.

http://972mag.com/fine-her-shes-a-witch/26388/

To be fair, this is reminiscent of the Christian Pastors in Africa denouncing child witches and Saudi courts fining witches (so there are Christians and Muslims that share this belief in witches)
dubai-politics-talk/child-witches-denounced-african-pastors-t43911.html

(Which interestingly had eh saying there was an etiquette for witchcraft trials in the USA:
dubai-politics-talk/witch-trials-biblical-etiquette-t43919.html

)


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: Saudi courts fining witches

You mean Saudi Arabia beheading witches.

A Saudi Arabian ministry statement carried by the state news agency, SPA, stated that Abdul Hamid al-Fakki "practiced witchcraft and sorcery," which are illegal under Saudi Arabia's Islamic sharia law. Al-Fakki was beheaded in the western city of Medina on Monday, the interior ministry announced.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent ... cerer.aspx

The Wahabbis are evidently nuttier than the African Christians and these Israeli judges!

You never did get round to telling us what the etiquette was for US trials of witches was according to your reading of the Bible - did you? Could you not find the references?

Cheers,
Shafique

yap yap yap

shafique wrote:The Wahabbis are evidently nuttier than the African Christians and these Israeli judges!

Cheers,
Shafique

i would like to know from your point of view what a wahhabi is to you

I use the term as per the usual definition.. the one in Wikipedia sums it up well.

Wahhabism is a religious movement[1] or a branch[2] of Islam. It was developed by an 18th century Muslim theologian (Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab) (1703–1792) from Najd, Saudi Arabia. Ibn Abdul Al-Wahhab advocated purging Islam of what he considered to be impurities and innovations. Wahhabism is the dominant form of Islam in Saudi Arabia. It has developed considerable influence in the Muslim world in part through Saudi funding of mosques, schools and social programs.

Wahhabism claims to adhere to the correct understanding of the general Islamic doctrine of Tawhid, the Uniqueness and Unity of God, shared by the majority of Islamic sects, but uniquely interpreted by Abdul Al-Wahhab .[3] Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab was influenced by the writings of Ibn Taymiyya and questioned classical interpretations of Islam, claiming to rely on the Qur'an and the Hadith.[3] He attacked a "perceived moral decline and political weakness" in the Arabian Peninsula and condemned what he perceived as idolatry, the popular cult of saints, and shrine and tomb visitation.[3]

The terms Wahhabi and Salafi (as well as ahl al-hadith, people of hadith) are often used interchangeably, but Wahhabi has also been called "a particular orientation within Salafism",[2] an orientation some consider ultra-conservative and heretical.[4][5]

There are some aspects which I agree with - eg the strict avoidance of any forms of idolworship, particularly the praying to saints etc - and some which I don't eg some of the harsh treatment of women.

I particularly object to the elitist attitude towards other Muslim sects, eg the Shia.

I don't believe they are heretical/heretics - but rather much like the ultra-Orthodox Jews of the OP who lose sight of the spirit in their adherence to their version of the letter of the teachings of Islam.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:There are some aspects which I agree with - eg the strict avoidance of any forms of idolworship, particularly the praying to saints etc.

I particularly object to the elitist attitude towards other Muslim sects, eg the Shia.


Cheers,
Shafique

so you would agree with the strict avoidance of any forms of idolworship, particularly the praying to saints etc, but object to the elitist attitude towards other Muslim sects, eg the Shia?

sorry shafique, maybe you are not very familiar with the shia which one of there main beliefes is idolworship and wasilah (taking someone else to be a mediator between them and God).

i am one of many who are against the shia and their teachings, i bet you would be too if you knew that they dare call aisha bint abu baker, prophet mohammed's wife, the mother of all beleivers, a whore.
and curse at the succesors of the prophet mohammed, abubaker and omar. they even celebrate the death of the third khalifa omar on the hands of abu lo' lo'a al majoosy whom they praise and have built a huge shrine for in his honour in iran, the very khalifa that brought islam to persia. and those are just tiny examples why i'm against them. maybe you should do more research on them like i have for years. it wont be a waste of time, believe me, you need to.

General, what is your view on Ahmadis/Qadianis?

Do they go against Islam? I remember reading some of the crazy beliefs of Qadianis not very long ago, including the founder slamming his opponents when he could not refute them in debate.

general, I am a sunni Muslim and indeed I do find many Shia beliefs objectionable.

I have discussed with Shia Alims of twelver shias, Ishmaeli Shia and even Druze. I can have cordial discussions with anyone who is respectful - indeed this is what God orders us to do in the Quran when He says argue in a goodly fashion. I have read many books by Shia and sought to understand their beliefs from Shia scholars. I have particularly looked into the historical development of the various Shia sects.

Wahhabism and Salafism are two of many streams of sunni Islam, and as I said, there are portions of their beliefs I agree with, but others I don't.

Cheers,
Shafique

-- Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:42 pm --

Edit- given eh has turned up again - tell us about the witch trial etiquette references in the Bible you promised a while back:

shafique wrote:You never did get round to telling us what the etiquette was for US trials of witches was according to your reading of the Bible - did you? Could you not find the references?

event horizon wrote:General, what is your view on Ahmadis/Qadianis?

Do they go against Islam? I remember reading some of the crazy beliefs of Qadianis not very long ago, including the founder slamming his opponents when he could not refute them in debate.

In the first month of spring in April 1974, a conference was held by the Muslim World League in Mecca, and was attended by representatives of Muslim organizations from all over the world, and proclaimed the Kufr (infidelity) of this community and the pale of Islam, and urged Muslims to resist it's dangers and not to deal with them, and not bury their dead in graves of Muslims.

many fatwas Have been issued from a number of councils and bodies of legitimacy in the Muslim world, that Qadianis are kafir (infidels), including the Fiqh Council of the Muslim World League, the Islamic Fiqh Academy of the Organization of Islamic Conference, the Council of Senior Scholars in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, not to mention what was the fatwas of the scholars of Egypt and the Levant and Morocco, India and other.

so the answer is that they are not considered to be muslims. i also will look into the debate that you mentioned, because i also have heard that it was very intresting.

general, I am a sunni Muslim and indeed I do find many Shia beliefs objectionable.

I have discussed with Shia Alims of twelver shias, Ishmaeli Shia and even Druze. I can have cordial discussions with anyone who is respectful - indeed this is what God orders us to do in the Quran when He says argue in a goodly fashion. I have read many books by Shia and sought to understand their beliefs from Shia scholars. I have particularly looked into the historical development of the various Shia sects.

Wahhabism and Salafism are two of many streams of sunni Islam, and as I said, there are portions of their beliefs I agree with, but others I don't.

Cheers,
Shafique

so can we say that you view on wahabbi elitist attitude towards the Shia can be justified?

My view is justified for me - I suggest everyone else do their own research and then make up their own minds. The Shia certainly have a certain view of Wahhabis - which reflects how Wahhabis view them.

What's your stance on witchcraft? Eh thinks there is a proper etiquette for holding witchcraft trials - but hasn't yet given us the Biblical references for this etiquette.

To my knowledge, witchcraft trials (or indeed witches) don't appear in the Quran.

Cheers,
Shafique

I am a muslim, but muslim only, I dont believe in any sects because i find that sects are man made. Islam was just islam, no sunni no shia existed before and shouldnt now... But I still respect other people beliefs because i believe every1 have the choice to believe what they want... we shouldnt b forcing some1 to b like us cuz we think we are right... we are in a free world, and at the end of day, its betweent them and god, who are we to judge... I have travelled a lot and met many different people, and i have realised that there is rumors from both sides, sunni talks abt shia and shia talks abt sunni, but all the facts that they say abt eachother are not true... I think before we believe in any of those rumors, we should do our research properly... because these things will keep on creating misunderstanding and problems between muslims and then we will start fighting between eachother and forget the real enemy. The more we seperate the weaker we are, the more were together, the stronger we become!

-- Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:24 pm --

general_A wrote:

shafique wrote:There are some aspects which I agree with - eg the strict avoidance of any forms of idolworship, particularly the praying to saints etc.

I particularly object to the elitist attitude towards other Muslim sects, eg the Shia.


Cheers,
Shafique

so you would agree with the strict avoidance of any forms of idolworship, particularly the praying to saints etc, but object to the elitist attitude towards other Muslim sects, eg the Shia?

sorry shafique, maybe you are not very familiar with the shia which one of there main beliefes is idolworship and wasilah (taking someone else to be a mediator between them and God).

i am one of many who are against the shia and their teachings, i bet you would be too if you knew that they dare call aisha bint abu baker, prophet mohammed's wife, the mother of all beleivers, a whore.
and curse at the succesors of the prophet mohammed, abubaker and omar. they even celebrate the death of the third khalifa omar on the hands of abu lo' lo'a al majoosy whom they praise and have built a huge shrine for in his honour in iran, the very khalifa that brought islam to persia. and those are just tiny examples why i'm against them. maybe you should do more research on them like i have for years. it wont be a waste of time, believe me, you need to.

I find your comment is very stereotyping.... please b more open-minded, you will understand better other sects... and of course from every sects there are good and bad.. and people say what they want and talk in the name of sunni or shia... but it doesnt mean thats its true that shia or sunni have these beliefs... we should avoid these rumors..... or inform ourselves..

Interesting - general_A has yet to answer what his view on witchcraft trials is, and eh STILL hasn't told us what the 'proper etiquette' for witch trials according to the Bible is. I suspect we have a long wait before he backs up his wild claims.

MarN21 - if you don't believe in any sects, aren't you actually belonging to a group that is un-aligned? Don't you have to decide on certain basic issues - such as which Imam to pray behind, listen to on Friday sermons etc? How about deciding whether the first 3 Khalifas were legitimate or imposters?

Cheers,
Shafique

I believe in Allah, the prophet and the holy quran THATS ALL!... i pray behind any imam i see in any mosq.. and i do believe the 4 khalifas were good people to learn from and the 12 imams too.. i believe they are all good to learn from them.. i dont belong to any group, what i hear, if it makes sense to me, i follow it, if it doesnt, i live it, wether it comes from sunni or shia or any other religion actually...

-- Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:55 am --

morals are the same that it comes from islam or any other religion

^Sounds like you are a Sunni to me. I also believe that the first 4 Khalifas were rightly guided and also respect the Shia Imams too - (both branches). But I also understand where you're coming from in trying to get away from sects and the divisions between them. (I follow the Hanafi fique, but do take notice of what other schools of thought say too..)

I also agree that at their core all religions have the same moral code.

BTW - what's your take on Witchcraft trials then?

Cheers,
Shafique

No, lool I don't feel close to any sect

abt witchcraft trials, I think they should b punished but according to strong and relevant evidence.

^Which particular verse of the Quran tells you that witches exist and should be punished? What is the punishment for witchcraft, and on what are you basing it on?

eh believes there is a proper Biblical etiquette to witchcraft trials and that the African Pastors who are 'treating' child witches are doing it wrong.. but as I said, we're still waiting for him to elaborate on this claim.

Cheers,
Shafique