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Bethsmum · Sep 24, 2010

DD you claim to sit on the fence but you are as biased as I am. At least I have the guts to say what I think. Yes, I am offended by what you are saying about the Jews and the Holocaust but I acknowledge you have the right to say what you think. It doesn't stop me thinking that you should be totally ashamed of yourself.

Dillon · Sep 24, 2010

shafique wrote:Dillon - don't you think it is a bit weird for us to be discussing whether BM has a choice over whether to clarify what she meant in the quote above? I think it is weird.

Whilst you may think my gentle questions are the equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition - may I still respectfully reserve the right to ask them? To my mind, I'm asking them exactly BECAUSE this is a public forum - to clarify whether what was written (about IRA, Hamas, Mandela) is actually a general statement or whether if the resistance fighters are English (or French) then they are 'freedom fighters' after all.

Shafique, I see you missed my smiley on the last post! And there really is no need for further explanation, it’s as plain as day what you’re attempting to achieve although a more straightforward approach may have yielded a more straightforward response

shafique · Sep 24, 2010

BM - I totally applaud your candour and straight talk.

Can I ask you again the straight question that whether your view about freedom fighters extended to the French resistance during WWII (i.e. that they were cowards for not wearing uniforms and attacking the Nazis)?

i.e. Do you think the French resistance (which included Mauritian citizens, a fact I'm proud of - as with the fact that my Dad was in the TA in the UK and a couple of older uncles served in WWII) were 'cowards':

Bethsmum wrote:. Now you might understand why I have an aversion to 'freedom fighters'. The PLO, Hammas and whoever else are no better than the IRA. I can't abide those who 'fight' under cover, faces covered and not having the guts to wear a uniform. To me the IDF are a proper army, something I can identify with, whereas Hammas are just a bunch of cowards, who should be exterminated like the vermin they are.

(Dillon, I did try a straightforward approach, and have done so again above. And yes, I did notice the smiley and did type the response to you with tongue half-in-cheek! )

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Sep 24, 2010

Red Chief wrote:Once more, I'm not your friend, sunshine.

Secondary, why should I get deeper to that relationship as it's enough for you to drop only one example about East Germany to "prove" your point?

Thirdly, my comment was not to you but to Sir Shafique, who was very keen in independence of kind Muzlems in Chechnja but pretty happy with similar situation in NI.

well I'm glad that we've managed to sort this one out without the usual exchange of pleasantries :lol:

Red Chief · Sep 24, 2010

shafique wrote: Do you think the French resistance (which included Mauritian citizens, a fact I'm proud of - as with the fact that my Dad was in the TA in the UK and a couple of older uncles served in WWII) were 'cowards'

Taking into account that they were predominantly Communists and so took more risk let me think that they were very bold and selfless. I'm sorry for intervention.

Dillon · Sep 24, 2010

shafique wrote:BM - I totally applaud your candour and straight talk.

Can I ask you again the straight question that whether your view about freedom fighters extended to the French resistance during WWII (i.e. that they were cowards for not wearing uniforms and attacking the Nazis)?

i.e. Do you think the French resistance (which included Mauritian citizens, a fact I'm proud of - as with the fact that my Dad was in the TA in the UK and a couple of older uncles served in WWII) were 'cowards':

(Dillon, I did try a straightforward approach, and have done so again above. And yes, I did notice the smiley and did type the response to you with tongue half-in-cheek! )

Cheers,
Shafique[/quote]

Finally, the real reason, "Do you think the French resistance (which included Mauritian citizens, a fact I'm proud of - as with the fact that my Dad was in the TA in the UK and a couple of older uncles served in WWII) were 'cowards'"

Now was that so difficult? :lol:

Bethsmum · Sep 24, 2010

@shafique, I am not dodging your questions, it's just that I actually have a life and don't have the time to sit down and answer your posts word for word. As for you thinking that Dillon does not want me to answer, I just don't understand that statement. Why on earth would that be? I'm sure he is amused as the rest of you by my views. I'll tell you this Shafique, BM has been round the block a few times and hasn't found a man yet, who could shut her up. And I can asure you, you are not going to be 'the one'.
Lets go back to WW11, no, I don't consider the Frech resistance to be terrorists, that was a legitimate world war, totally unlike the situation, as I see it on the Isreal/Palestine borders.
The IRA invading middle England with the backing of the US government? That is such a ridiculous statement I'm not even giving it house room. You are trying to back me into a corner, but I'm afraid you're not that clever. I think what I think and that's the end of it to me, I'm not changing my view for you or anyone else for that matter. You will just have to accept it.
You keep harping back to my statement that all Muslims see is there religion 24/7. That I stand by aswell. Maybe it will help you if I tell you one of my other life experiences? I must say it is alien for me to talk about my personal life but if it helps the likes of you understand the likes of me, then I will. One of my very beautiful daughters became very ill and when she was in recovery was very vunerable. She was pounced on by some scrag end from the Swat Valley in Pakistan, while he was in the UK to improve his language skills (is that what they call it these days). I protested strongly to her marrying him but as she is an adult, is free to make her own choices. My fears came true, she converted to Islam and now her husband forbids her to have any contact at all with any of our family. After having an English private education she nows spends her days breast feeding their son. I hope that clarifies the situation for you, and now if you'll excuse me I'll get back to work.
Have a nice day.

shafique · Sep 24, 2010

Cool, we've established that legitimate resistance to an occupation is not terrorism - and we agree that French resistance to Nazi occupation was exactly such an instance.

[deleted]

So, on that point of agreement - I thank you for your frank views and applaud you for your patience and hope that the situation with the son-in-law improves. Jemima Goldsmith, for example, had a flirtation with Islam as well and then 'escaped' - so perhaps there is some hope there?

That a husband will prevent their wife from visiting their family is abhorent, at a human level and even at an Islamic level. I won't bore you with the Islamic references and examples which you could put before the scrag-end - he sounds like a stubborn one.

But thank you for sharing the information about the private life - as I stated early on, I acknowledged that you said your views of Islam was a result of actual contact with Muslims - it is a shame that under different circumstances you'd be expressing the same strong views towards those causing the suffering of mothers who happen to live on the wrong side of the barrier - and on the Israeli Palestine issue, we are clearly going to have to agree to disagree.

You too have a nice day.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Sep 24, 2010

Shafique please do refrain from trying to put words in my mouth. I will only stand by statements I have made and not what you presume. You now mention an Austrian women! I can't keep up I'm afraid please try to sit still awhile.
I'm afraid the situation with the scrag end from Pakistan will not improve and the best end to him would be to send him back to his flooded homeland and more of the likes with him There I go again a new train to this topic.
Please do not think I am so shallow as to believe all Muslims a like this. I have a very good friend ,for about ten years , and I can only think nice thoughts about him but I must admit his religion is upmost in his life 24/7.

shafique · Sep 24, 2010

I apologise. I did not mean to cause more grief with my cheap argument about the 'Austrian mother' - it was a cheap shot. Sorry.

I do hope that you can reconcile with your daughter in future.

Take care.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Sep 25, 2010

Thanks Shafique but there is really no need to apologise.

shafique · Sep 25, 2010

Thanks BM.

Good luck against Chelsea!

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Sep 25, 2010

Manchester City 1 Chelsea 0
Thanks Shafique, you don't need luck when you have the quality of Tevez, once again we walked it! Get in Citeh!

shafique · Sep 25, 2010

Congrats!

Flying Dutchman · Sep 25, 2010

Unfortunately thats what crititizing Israel has become in a lot of cases nowadays. Advocating the destruction of Israel or comparing Israel to the nazi's. Those that compare Israel to the nazi's are of the same extremists low level of the settler in Soussia shouting Hitler and nazi's to the journalist. Exactly the same kind. :idea:

desertdudeshj · Sep 25, 2010

Yes ofcourse, Israel is beyond reproach and never ggilty of anything. :roll:

Flying Dutchman · Sep 25, 2010

Nope, Israel can certainly and most be critized for a lot of reasons. WIshing for its destruction and comparing it to the nazi's is just really counter-productive. The above reply to pointing out the comparison between the nazi's and Israel is very inappropiate is just plain ridiculous.

Tom Jones · Sep 26, 2010

Bethsmum wrote:@shafique, I am not dodging your questions, it's just that I actually have a life and don't have the time to sit down and answer your posts word for word. As for you thinking that Dillon does not want me to answer, I just don't understand that statement. Why on earth would that be? I'm sure he is amused as the rest of you by my views. I'll tell you this Shafique, BM has been round the block a few times and hasn't found a man yet, who could shut her up. And I can asure you, you are not going to be 'the one'.
Lets go back to WW11, no, I don't consider the Frech resistance to be terrorists, that was a legitimate world war, totally unlike the situation, as I see it on the Isreal/Palestine borders.
The IRA invading middle England with the backing of the US government? That is such a ridiculous statement I'm not even giving it house room. You are trying to back me into a corner, but I'm afraid you're not that clever. I think what I think and that's the end of it to me, I'm not changing my view for you or anyone else for that matter. You will just have to accept it.
You keep harping back to my statement that all Muslims see is there religion 24/7. That I stand by aswell. Maybe it will help you if I tell you one of my other life experiences? I must say it is alien for me to talk about my personal life but if it helps the likes of you understand the likes of me, then I will. One of my very beautiful daughters became very ill and when she was in recovery was very vunerable. She was pounced on by some scrag end from the Swat Valley in Pakistan, while he was in the UK to improve his language skills (is that what they call it these days). I protested strongly to her marrying him but as she is an adult, is free to make her own choices. My fears came true, she converted to Islam and now her husband forbids her to have any contact at all with any of our family. After having an English private education she nows spends her days breast feeding their son. I hope that clarifies the situation for you, and now if you'll excuse me I'll get back to work.
Have a nice day.

Sorry to hear about your daughter, BM.

I’m surprised that the Pakistani “scrag” is keeping her from seeing her family.

I don’t think that’s an Islamic “thing,” though!

When I was in the Middle East for many years, I had met several Western women who were married to Moslem men. Some of these women had converted to Islam but some had not. I know a couple of these ladies who had converted to Islam just to please their husband or his family, but they actually didn’t practice Islam.

However, most importantly, I had also noticed that all these ladies had good relationships with their families back home.

Either the parents (or other relatives) would be visiting them in the Middle East, or the ladies would go back home for a visit or a holiday, once, twice or even thrice every year.

To the contrary, I thought that the Muslims sought to spread the “word” and convert others, as part of the teachings, not to ”disassociate” themselves from their non-Muslim families or societies. Isn’t that true, Shaf??

Anyway, I wish that your daughter comes back to her senses and re-connect with her family very soon. In fact, I’m sure she loves her family, and will eventually do that .

All the best!

TJ

shafique · Sep 26, 2010

TJ - you're right - Islam teaches respect for parents, especially mothers. The only time a Muslim is allowed to disobey a parent is if they insist that you worship a god other than the God of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

Every Muslim knows the Hadith about 'Paradise lies under the feet of the mother' and another Hadith :

a man asked the Prophet (PBUH), "Who is most worthy of my love and respect?" The Prophet (PBUH)replied, "Your mother." The man asked, "And then who?" The Prophet (PBUH) again answered, "Your mother." The man asked one more time and received the same answer. When the man asked the question a fourth time, the Prophet (PBUH) answered, "Your father."

And there is another Hadith in respect of either a wife or a companion of the Prophet, pbuh, who's non-Muslim mother came to visit and the Prophet insisted that they show them the respect that is due to all Mothers.

The kindness to mothers is just general good manners - and not really (I think) designed primarily to invite people to Islam - but it certainly can be viewed as an aspect of Islam that may attract, rather than repel, people.

Edit: A quick Google gave me these references:

The Quran and Hadith on Mothers

The Quran

1. "We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents; in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth" (46:15).

2. "Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honor. And out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: ‘My Lord! bestow on them Thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood' "(17:23-24).

3. "We have enjoined on man and woman kindness to parents; but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me anything of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not'" (29:8).

4. "We have enjoined on man and woman (to be good) to his/her parents; show gratitude to Me and to thy parents; to Me is (thy final) Goal. If they (parents) strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration) and follow the way of those who turn to Me (in love)" (31:14-15).

The Hadith

1. The Prophet Muhammad said, may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him: Your Heaven lies under the feet of your mother (Ahmad, Nasai).

2. A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘O Messenger of God! Who among the people is the most worthy of my good companionship? The Prophet said: Your mother. The man said, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your mother. The man further asked, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your mother. The man asked again, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your father. (Bukhari, Muslim).

3. Abu Usaid Saidi said: We were once sitting with Rasulullah when a man from the tribe of Salmah came and said to him: O Messenger of Allah! do my parents have rights over me even after they have died? And Rasulullah said: Yes. You must pray to Allah to bless them with His Forgiveness and Mercy, fulfill the promises they made to anyone, and respect their relations and their friends (Abu Dawud and Ibn Majah).

4. Abdullah ibn Amr related that the Messenger of Allah said: The major sins are to believe that Allah has partners, to disobey one's parents, to commit murder, and to bear false witness (Bukhari, Muslim).

5. It is narrated by Asma bint Abu Bakr that during the treaty of Hudaibiyah, her mother, who was then pagan, came to see her from Makkah. Asma informed the Messenger of Allah of her arrival and also that she needed help. He said: Be good to your mother (Bukhari, Muslim).

http://www.soundvision.com/Info/mothers ... hadith.asp

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Sep 26, 2010

Thanks for your kind wishes. Just to elaborate a bit, my daughter suffered a severe brain infection which left her with brain damage, not the drooling kind of damage, more like the lights are on but nobody's home. She can function on a day to day level but has memory problems, she cannot recognise facial expressions which the doctors were able to confirm by looking at her brain scans. Her husband has turned out to be a control freak and as you can imagine I'm not backward in coming forward with my opinions. I saw my daughter through an illness which saw her in hospital then committed under the mental health Act for her own safety, and her rehabilitation in an insitution. Rightly or wrongly I felt over protective towards her which he resented. He is a doctor and they moved to the south coast of England, I don't know her address and I would be surprised if she remembered mine. I haven't seen her for over three years. I know it's not a muslim thing as I know muslims are very big on family life. I'm afraid my daughters husband probably has a wife and family back in Pakistan, he is older than my daughter and had just arrived in England to improve his English before working in the National Health. I don't believe he was in a position to marry my daughter but went ahead because his religion allowed it. Hope that goes someway in explaining my views. BTW don't feel sorry for me, I have a fantastic life, just suffered a few hurdles on the way like many, many other people.

shafique · Sep 26, 2010

BM - again thanks for sharing, and as a parent myself I would also share the anger at the situation you describe.

However, you do seem level headed and I'm glad you are keeping things in perspective in respect of the hurdles we all face.

All the best.

Cheers,
Shafique

Mahmoud04 · Sep 26, 2010

well, good what you wrote Shafique,
although most of Muslims right now thinking that praying and fasting is all what Islam is about,
shame they forget its more about behavior and respecting human beings....

yalla what to do, Allah will guard Islam from all anyway....

I think the world just needs new leaders now, there is too much people suffering now because of wars and violation created by stupid leaders.

Tom Jones · Sep 26, 2010

Bethsmum wrote:Thanks for your kind wishes. Just to elaborate a bit, my daughter suffered a severe brain infection which left her with brain damage, not the drooling kind of damage, more like the lights are on but nobody's home. She can function on a day to day level but has memory problems, she cannot recognise facial expressions which the doctors were able to confirm by looking at her brain scans. Her husband has turned out to be a control freak and as you can imagine I'm not backward in coming forward with my opinions. I saw my daughter through an illness which saw her in hospital then committed under the mental health Act for her own safety, and her rehabilitation in an insitution. Rightly or wrongly I felt over protective towards her which he resented. He is a doctor and they moved to the south coast of England, I don't know her address and I would be surprised if she remembered mine. I haven't seen her for over three years. I know it's not a muslim thing as I know muslims are very big on family life. I'm afraid my daughters husband probably has a wife and family back in Pakistan, he is older than my daughter and had just arrived in England to improve his English before working in the National Health. I don't believe he was in a position to marry my daughter but went ahead because his religion allowed it. Hope that goes someway in explaining my views. BTW don't feel sorry for me, I have a fantastic life, just suffered a few hurdles on the way like many, many other people.

It’s a sad story, nevertheless.

I don’t want to open up my own personal wounds in such a public forum, but I must admit that I did deeply feel for you.

It appears to me that the doctor is clearly taking advantage of your daughter.

How sad!!!

It is not really my place to suggest to you what to do, plus I’m sure that you have already explored all the options available to you. So I’ll just leave it at that!!

Still again, all the best to you and to your daughter.

TJ

......

Bethsmum · Sep 26, 2010

TJ, yes we all have our own tales of woe, don't we? What we all need is a distraction. I have found watching the delightful Usher can take me away to another place. Could I suggest you take a look at Nicole Scherzinger, you may find her therapeutic :bounce:

Tom Jones · Sep 26, 2010

Bethsmum wrote:TJ, yes we all have our own tales of woe, don't we? What we all need is a distraction. I have found watching the delightful Usher can take me away to another place. Could I suggest you take a look at Nicole Scherzinger, you may find her therapeutic

Yep!!!

Distractions (like Nicole Scherzinger) and keeping busy is what keeping us (somewhat!) sane... in this insane world!!!

Bethsmum · Sep 26, 2010

Oh good, I can see we speak the same language but maybe with a different accent.

gadfly · Oct 18, 2010

Palestine will be free ,only after America will be free.

desertdudeshj · Oct 18, 2010

Hmm...why do I have a feeling you have master plan for that aswell !

And when will Quebec be from those nasty Anglophones :shock:

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