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Nevermind, the whole thing hasd become a moot point as EH has decided to turn it into the pros and cons of abortion, instead of looking at the original topic which is essentially, society forced abortions of girls!

Bethsmum wrote:

event horizon wrote:What happened to her body, her choice?

Who are you to say a woman can't decide what she wants to do with her body because you disagree with her reasoning?

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a woman to be able to choose when, how and to what she gives birth to.

Nobody has the right to tell any woman what to do with her body.

Not everyone agrees with your view. For instance, some have opposed gender selective abortions taking place in India and China which it sounds like you support women in those countries aborting their pregnancies because the unborn are females.

Chocoholic wrote:Nevermind, the whole thing hasd become a moot point as EH has decided to turn it into the pros and cons of abortion, instead of looking at the original topic which is essentially, society forced abortions of girls!

For me, the OP was a lead in.

I was wondering how people who describe themselves as 'pro-choice' would view gender selective abortions.

Two members have already opposed these types of abortions.

What I'm trying to understand is, how can someone call themself 'pro-choice' but oppose a woman's right to choose if they don't agree with her reasoning.

Being pro-choice means that I have to accept that abortion will be used in what I think are unethical ways. The fact remains that the benefits of women having access to abortion outweigh the negatives. Even if doctors stop revealing the gender of the baby, if a woman or family don't want a girl it means that a live birth of a female will end up in murder, abandonment or even a life of abuse or being sold into slavery. So ultimately education programs that aim to raise the status of women, and steps to remove barriers like huge dowry etc., is what is really needed to stop female gendercide.

^kanelli, your point of view seems very logical to me.

Some people use hammers to commit murder. It would be bizare to condemn a person for being 'inconsistent' if they believe hammers should not be used to kill people, but should not be banned either.

I also believe that education is key. For the record, I don't oppose abortions - and don't believe life begins at conception (Muslims believe that the soul, or capacity for independent life, is only present after about 3 months). I am uncomfortable with late abortions and abortions carried out for contraception reasons (rather than medical reasons) - but early abortions, for me, are no different from the greater number of miscarriages that occur naturally.

I share the general abhorence for abortions for gender selection.

Cheers,
Shafique

Some people use hammers to commit murder. It would be bizare to condemn a person for being 'inconsistent' if they believe hammers should not be used to kill people, but should not be banned either.

This is probably the dumbest statement I've heard in my life.

But pray tell, how does your hammer analogy relate to people who say they are pro-choice but want to decide what a woman can do with her body based on how 'valid' her reason to have an abortion is?

nd don't believe life begins at conception (Muslims believe that the soul, or capacity for independent life, is only present after about 3 months)

Cool, your views on abortion can be ignored because they're not based on logic or reason.

but early abortions, for me, are no different from the greater number of miscarriages that occur naturally.

I take it you can't distinguish between euthanasia and natural death?

kanelli wrote: So ultimately education programs that aim to raise the status of women

Why stop there? Why not have education programs that raise the status of the unborn?

EH, could you please show some respect for other peoples opinions? Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't make them wrong. Kanelli and Shaf both put forward good arguments and valid points for their beliefs. I think it's time to end this topic now, because clearly you're not willing to see any other view point other than your own.

Shame you might learn something!

Chocoholic wrote:EH, could you please show some respect for other peoples opinions? Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't make them wrong. Kanelli and Shaf both put forward good arguments and valid points for their beliefs. I think it's time to end this topic now, because clearly you're not willing to see any other view point other than your own.

Shame you might learn something!

That works the other way too Chocs. Others should respect EH's views too.

Why end a good debate because EH is saying what he thinks? May be he feels he has nothing to learn from Shafique or kanelli.

chocoholic wrote:As we have said time and time again, which fails to go into your pea brain

Choco, hypocritical? Not in this thread!

EH, are you seriously suggesting that all babies conceived should be born, no matter the circumstances? What has happened to women who are so desperate not to keep a baby that they go to backstreet abortionists, take chemicals, throw themselves down stairs etc.?

It is a bit rich for men to feel so strongly about abortion, since they are not the ones who would be forced to carry an unwanted baby for 9 months or deal with any life-threatening consequences of seeking out ways to abort when safe medical abortion is not legal and available.

I'm in favour of se.x education and making birth control as widely available as possible so that women can avoid becoming pregnant in the first place. Even then, this still won't cover all circumstances, and women should always have the right to safe medical abortion.

Well according to EH's views, he'd force a woman to have a baby even if the complications meant that the mother and child would lose their lives - nice!

I can't stand pro-lifers - they think women should die rather than have abortions. They live in a fuzzy pink world where no one has unintended pregnancies, all babies and mothers are healthy, and every baby is desired.

Actually I think EH is pro-abortion, however he fails to see that sometimes abortions simply for the sake of it or for no genuine reason are acceptable.

What has happened to women who are so desperate not to keep a baby that they go to backstreet abortionists, take chemicals, throw themselves down stairs etc.?

This scenario is pretty interesting.

1) I'm to feel sympathy for someone who wants to murder her unborn child
2) If she's willing to harm herself getting an abortion in a back alley or by falling down a flight of stairs, she can't carry the child to term and give it up for adoption at birth?

Wow, really?

It is a bit rich for men to feel so strongly about abortion, since they are not the ones who would be forced to carry an unwanted baby for 9 months or deal with any life-threatening consequences of seeking out ways to abort when safe medical abortion is not legal and available.

Well, in all fairness, my logic is very consistent. I don't say I'm pro-choice but oppose a woman's right to choose if I don't agree with her reasoning.

Chocs has already said she wants to restrict a woman's right to choose based on how valid the motives of the mother are.

Oh, and what about all those impoverished Indian women who are going to fall down stairs because they're carrying a girl that Chocs won't let them abort?

Chocs, where are your crocodile tears for them?

I'd say it's a bit rich for Westerners like Chocs to dictate her for third world women. But hey, let's limit this discussion to evil men.

Even then, this still won't cover all circumstances, and women should always have the right to safe medical abortion.

What happens if they've given birth and decide they no longer want the child? Maybe they lost their job and can't afford to feed four children. One's gotta go.

Why not take one back behind the shed and bury it in the vegetable garden? What's wrong with that?

Well according to EH's views, he'd force a woman to have a baby even if the complications meant that the mother and child would lose their lives - nice!

Favorite straw-man. Ignoring that abortion for medical reasons account for something like less than 2% of all abortions, I don't believe I've expressed an opinion on that in this topic or anywhere else in this forum.

I don't agree with all that Chocs has said.

As for what you have written, you have no clue. Have you thought about how it feels to carry an unwanted child for 9 months? What if the woman will be killed by her partner or family because of her pregnancy. What about school, work, etc.? It is very naive to think that a woman would rather carry a baby for 9 months and give birth and try to find a home for the child (hey, lots of orphanages sounds great doesn't it!), rather than abort a clump of cells or fetus that is not a fully formed baby yet. (Personally, I think aborting in first trimester is quite acceptable, second trimester abortions make me very uncomfortable, third trimester abortions are shocking to me - unless the mother will die if an abortion is not done.) How about pregnancies resulting from rape and incest. Should those women suck it up and carry those babies to full term? Mentally, how do you think it would feel? Are all women supposed to be thinking of the rights of a fetus as their first priority? Honestly, I don't think you are considering all aspects EH.

Women all over the world have carried babies to term and murdered them because they were unwanted pregnancies or the gender was wrong. You can find countless articles that tell of this. Is it better to let women abort early or is it better that they give birth and then strangle the baby with its own umbilical cord, drown it in a pail, bury it alive, leave it by the side of the road, tie it up in a plastic bag and throw it in a dumpster etc.?

As I've said before EH, it's a pointless exercise discussing this with you. You're not a woman so you can never ever profess to understand the decisions that a woman has to make with regards to such things.

I have never said a woman does not have the right to choose - what I object to, and what you fail to see over and over is if SOCIETY FORCES IT!!!!!!! Why can you not get that through your head?!

You still miss the point completely. Let's see how you feel in a few generations time when the the male to female ratio is completely lop sided!

Chocoholic wrote:You're not a woman so you can never ever profess to understand the decisions that a woman has to make with regards to such things.

I am a bit of undecided where the line should be for abortion. I can only speak of my own experience. Me and my youth friends are very close. A female friend got herself pregnang while on holiday in Africa at a young age. She deperately wanted an abortion. We didnot wanted to hear of it. We raised the small Taliban. The kid and mother are the happiest persons and the mother can't imagine anything else. I strongly believe that abortion in many cases is the easy way out.

Chocoholic wrote:Kanelli and Shaf both put forward good arguments

I wouldnot call comparing abortion with a miss carriage as a good argument, but alas.

Chocoholic wrote: Let's see how you feel in a few generations time when the the male to female ratio is completely lop sided!

There is always Iceland.

FD, no doubt there are people who choose to keep the pregnancy and in the end are very happy they did. Some feel extremely happy that they aborted. There is no way to predict feelings because each person is an individual and every circumstance is different. You might feel like abortion is an easy way out, but you haven't been in their shoes or experienced carrying a baby and giving birth.

I would have a hard time aborting (unless in a case or rape or incest) because to me having s.ex means that I need to be responsible for my own health and any consequences. When planning children in a marriage many couples have to discuss what they would do if they found out that the fetus was abnormal, sometimes husbands and wives disagree and it is an important consideration. It would weigh on my conscience to have an abortion, so it would have to be for a really good reason. Other women make choices according to their own circumstances and beliefs and I have to accept that in order to support safe and legal medical abortion as a right for all women.

What about school, work, etc.?

What about work and school? A woman's life isn't radically altered in the first trimester of pregnancy.

So you're going to say, 'but she's getting an abortion before her life becomes disrupted!'

Ok, so can a woman drown her children in the bathtub if they interrupt her schooling or career?

What if those children somehow are not hers biologically but became hers through someone's death?

She didn't ask for those children - and it's too much to try and give them away - she should be able to smother the children. Her home, her choice.

It is very naive to think that a woman would rather carry a baby for 9 months and give birth and try to find a home for the child, rather than abort a clump of cells or fetus that is not a fully formed baby yet.

The clump of cells are a stage of life. No different from the clump of cells at the end of a person's life.

Very few people believe you can abort granny without her permission, but maybe there are a few here who believe that.

I say flush gran down the toilet !

event horizon wrote:

What about school, work, etc.?

What about work and school? A woman's life isn't radically altered in the first trimester of pregnancy.

So you're going to say, 'but she's getting an abortion before her life becomes disrupted!'

Ok, so can a woman drown her children in the bathtub if they interrupt her schooling or career?

What if those children somehow are not hers biologically but became hers through someone's death?

She didn't ask for those children - and it's too much to try and give them away - she should be able to smother the children. Her home, her choice.

It is very naive to think that a woman would rather carry a baby for 9 months and give birth and try to find a home for the child, rather than abort a clump of cells or fetus that is not a fully formed baby yet.

The clump of cells are a stage of life. No different from the clump of cells at the end of a person's life.

Very few people believe you can abort granny without her permission, but maybe there are a few here who believe that.

EH, you just don't get it. I've never said that killing a child after birth is acceptable. It is unrealistic for you to compare a fetus in first trimester with a child that has already been born, or granny for that matter.

Clearly you are one of those males with an idealized view of conception and life and you value the life of the fetus over the life of the mother. This is not new, because many view the mother as merely the vessel for the fetus and think it is basically a woman's job to sacrifice for the fetus (and later child) in all cases. Men have the privilege of holding such opinions when they would never find themselves in such a situation.

And I ask myself, how it relates to female gendercide specifically? Banning abortion to try to stop gendercide would not work because people would kill unwanted female babies anyway, and women should have the right to abort because there are many cases that are not gendercide where women would choose an abortion and they deserve access to safe medical abortion.

desertdudeshj wrote:I say flush gran down the toilet !

First your Aunty and now your Gran
Munchkin, you'll have no-one left at this rate!

EH, you just don't get it. I've never said that killing a child after birth is acceptable.

I'm trying to understand how valid your argument is. I figured my questions were obvious in that I was scrutinizing your reasoning. I thought that was implied. Why else would I ask questions regarding specific situations?

It is unrealistic for you to compare a fetus in first trimester with a child that has already been born, or granny for that matter.

That's your belief, I disagree.

Banning abortion to try to stop gendercide would not work because people would kill unwanted female babies anyway

Maybe murder should be legalized because it will happen anyway and murder done illegally could be dangerous for the murderer.

Maybe men should be the ones who get pregnant?

With a bit of luck then Kanelli you should return in your next life as a seahorse, that would be right up your street wouldn’t it?

Well, it seems that men can claim to be "more ethical" about childbearing and abortion... when they never have to be the actual person pregnant or having the abortion. Odd isn't it?

kanelli wrote:Well, it seems that men can claim to be "more ethical" about childbearing and abortion... when they never have to be the actual person pregnant or having the abortion. Odd isn't it?

Agreed, sorry but I don't think men could ever understand the emotional or potential physical trauma that women have to go through with such decisions. And yes there is physical trauma, some women end up not being able to have children again through botched abortions.

Yep, or they end up dead, but then some people think they deserve to be dead for not wanting wanting to remain pregnant.

kanelli wrote:Yep, or they end up dead, but then some people think they deserve to be dead for not wanting wanting to remain pregnant.

Yeah, just like rapists who end up injured from an attempted rape.

Some people think rapists deserve what happens to them.

And if you're not a man, you shouldn't have a say in rape legislation, because you couldn't possibly understand what goes through a (male) rapist's mind.

event horizon wrote:

kanelli wrote:Yep, or they end up dead, but then some people think they deserve to be dead for not wanting wanting to remain pregnant.

Yeah, just like rapists who end up injured from an attempted rape.

Some people think rapists deserve what happens to them.

And if you're not a man, you shouldn't have a say in rape legislation, because you couldn't possibly understand what goes through a (male) rapist's mind.

Where the heck is your thinking in coming up with that?! No correlation or even compartison! And the stupidest post of the day award goes to...... YOU!

My thinking comes from the poster I quoted. I took some liberties by changing the players involved.

It's my own mental exercise I perform through analogy.

But hey, I'm glad you're able to at least catch the absurdity in what I wrote.

But it is worrisome if you're not able to see the larger picture and the painfully obvious comparison I made, or at least attempt to address it.