Friendly Muslim Scholar Explainsl The Nuances Of Warfare

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Friendly Muslim scholar explainsl the nuances of warfare May 23, 2010
The jihad is for the liberation of all Muslims around the world. When we succeed in this part, we will to move to other parts until we ensure only Allah is worshipped in this world


Seems to me, our friendly Muslim scholar has been misinformed on the TRUE teachings of jihad warfare in Islam.

I blame the usual culprits, memri and fox news.

Jihad is a spiritual struggle, dontchya know?

Somali insurgent group al Shabaab has once again warned Kenya to stop interfering in the affairs of Somalia.

The rebel group's spokesman, Sheikh Ali Mohamoud Raghe alias Sheikh Ali Dhere, said Kenya was among Christian (non-Muslim) forces opposing his movement's Jihad (holy war) against the Transitional Federal Government in Mogadishu.

"We know that Kenya is supporting few cowards around its border," he said at a passing out parade for rebel fighters in the port city of Kismayu.

"You Jihadists are going to crush those elements and move beyond into Kenya," he added.

Kenya, he said, is in a glass house and should not start throwing stones.

"Kenya should learn from what happened to the mightier Ethiopian forces," said Sheikh Ali Dhere. "Thousands of Ethiopians had to stream to the border in total defeat."

He asked the trainees to remain morally and spiritually equipped to confront any threat against Islam.

The militants, he said, were in Jihad against non-Muslims anywhere around the world.

"The jihad is for the liberation of all Muslims around the world," said Sheikh Ali Dhere. "When we succeed in this part, we will to move to other parts until we ensure only Allah is worshipped in this world," he added amid chants of Allahu Akbar (God is Great).


http://www.nation.co.ke/News/africa/Al% ... 30rb9vz/-/

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Re: Friendly Muslim scholar explainsl the nuances of warfare May 23, 2010
It's actually a well thought out argument that says that Muslims do indeed what to impose Islamic rule over all non-Muslims.

Yesterday some crazy guy who likes to watch 'loons' decided to post an article where he thoughfully laid out the arguments in favour of this 'true' view of Islamic theology.

He, presents the case for this true version of Islam in the form of a reverse-psychology argument where he uses 'weak' arguments to 'rebut' the true teachings of Islam. ;)

Of course, those of us who are learned in the ways of Islam won't bother to read the references and arguments, as we are very happy to dismiss anything that contradicts 'Fiquah of Fox' or 'Ijtehad of Memri' - but some people may want to look at what some silly historians who rely on facts actually say on the subject. ;)


Do Muslims want to reimpose dhimmitude or live as equals?
Posted on 22 May 2010

Robert Spencer, one of the leading anti-Islam ideologues of the Western world, published The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades). This is a rebuttal of chapter four of his book.

Spencer’s claim:

1. Historically, Jews fared better in Christian Europe than in the lands of Islam. Says Spencer: “…The Muslim laws [imposing dhimmitude] were much harsher for Jews than those of Christendom…In Christian lands there was the idea, however imperfect, of the equality of dignity and rights for all people…” [1]

Rebuttal:
Spencer’s claim contradicts the predominant opinion held by Western scholarship. Prof. Mark R. Cohen, the leading expert in the field, concludes that “the historical evidence indicates that the Jews of Islam, especially during the formative and classical centuries (up to the thirteenth century), experienced much less persecution than did the Jews of Christendom.” [2] Spencer’s book is horribly one-sided: it mentions “dhimmitude” (a spurious term), but makes no mention of the Church’s doctrine of Perpetual Servitude. Comparing the two, Cohen writes: “…The dhimmi enjoyed a kind of citizenship, second class and unequal though it was…[in contrast to] Jews living in Latin Christian lands, where…[they were] legally possessed [as slaves] by this or that ruling authority.” [3]


Spencer’s claim:
2. The Pact of Umar, a document that enumerates a number of humiliating conditions to be imposed upon non-Muslims, is “still part of the Sharia today.” [4] As soon as Muslims are able to, they will enforce it.

Rebuttal:
Numerous Islamic and Western scholars have declared the Pact of Umar to be a forgery. Muslims do not believe that a forgery can be a “part of the Sharia.” More importantly, although the document may have had some significance hundreds of years ago, it has now fallen into complete disuse and obscurity in the Islamic world. It is highly unlikely that contemporary Muslims want to reimpose a document that they themselves have never heard of. This is very similar to how most Christians today have no familiarity with the Church’s doctrine of Perpetual Servitude. To argue that either Muslims or Christians in general want to reimpose these respective doctrines–dhimmitude and Perpetual Servitude respectively–is conspiratorial and far-fetched.

3. Robert Spencer writes:
*Islamic law mandates second-class status for Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims in Islamic societies.
*These laws have never been abrogated or revised by any authority. [5]

Spencer challenges me, claiming that I will do virtually anything other than actually prov[e] that there exists a sect or school of Islam that teaches that Muslims must live with non-Muslims as equals on an indefinite basis

Rebuttal:
I accept his challenge.

Spencer’s claim–that no Islamic “authority” or “sect or school” has ever “abrogated” the laws of “dhimmitude”–is quite simply false. It is a boldfaced lie or profound ignorance, either of which casts great doubt on Spencer’s “scholarship.” Over 150 years ago, the caliph (supreme leader of the Islamic world) abolished the dhimmi system entirely. In 1839, a caliphal decree known as the Hatt-i Sharif of Gulhane was issued, implicitly recognizing the equality of all Ottoman subjects, Muslim and non-Muslim alike. In 1856, “the Hatt-i Humayan [was issued], in which the principles of 1839 were repeated and the guarantees of the equality of all subjects were made more explicit. Thus, Muslim and non-Muslim were to have equal obligations…and equal opportunities…” [6] The decree abolished the jizya and dhimmi system for all time. (Read more about these caliphal decrees here.)

In the mid-nineteenth century, a group of Islamic intellectuals emerged, known as the Young Ottomans (not to be confused with the secularized Young Turks). They expounded Ottomanism, a doctrine stating the inherent equality of all peoples in the Empire regardless of religion or ethnicity. The Young Ottomans believed that Islam advocates constitutionalism and that the government must enter a contractual agreement with those whom they rule over. In other words, there is to be mutual consent between the rulers and the ruled. The Young Ottomans opposed the royal autocracy, and demanded democratization of the Empire. They argued that not only should all religious communities be viewed equally by the state, but there were certain inalienable rights that all citizens possessed, which the government could not infringe upon. The efforts of the Ottoman government on the one hand and the Islamic intellectuals on the other hand culminated in the passage of the Nationality Law of 1869, which “reinforced the principle that all individuals living within Ottoman domains shared a common citizenship regardless of their religion.” [7] (Read more about these Islamic intellectuals here.)

The Young Ottomans had a long-lasting effect on Islamic discourse, and gave birth to the modernist school of thought. Arguably the key figure of modernist Islam was Muhammad Abduh (1849-1905), who served as rector of al-Azhar University (the foremost Sunni institution) and who held the position of Grand Mufti of Egypt (the highest ranking religious position in the country). Abduh issued a fatwa declaring Muslims and non-Muslims “to be equal under the law, with full citizenship rights.” [8] He further supported parliamentary democracy and constitutionalism as a means to protect these individual rights. In 1908, Mehmed Emaleddin Efendi (Turkey, 1848-1917)–the chief religious authority of the Ottoman Empire, appointed directly by the caliph–concurred with Abduh. During this period, numerous Islamic reformers emerged, and reconciled Islam with modernity. They revised traditional opinions dealing with jihad, women’s rights, human rights, science, and interfaith relationships. Quite consistently, the modernist trend of Islam has held the opinion, to use Robert Spencer’s own words, that “Muslims must live with non-Muslims as equals on an indefinite basis.” (Read more about modernist Islam here.) Muhammad Abduh’s work “fostered not only a modernist school of thought but also a reformed traditionalist school…spearheaded by [the more conservative] Muhammad Rashid Rida, a disciple of Abduh.” [9] In this manner, reformist ideas seeped into the discourse of the conservative Ulema. One can say that the fire of reform burned greatest at its modernist core, but its warmth reached even more traditionalist elements, defrosting some of their more [f]rigid opinions.

It should be noted, however, that “few Muslims explicitly self-identify as ‘Muslim modenists,’ [and] instead refer[] to themselves simply as Muslims.” [10] The term “modernist Islam” is instead used most frequently by Western scholars–those outside of the faith–to describe a clearly discernible trend that has had profound influence on contemporary Islamic discourse. Anti-Islam ideologues often dismiss modernist interpretations, choosing instead to “look at the more conservative articulations of Islam (such as some traditional scholars) and even Muslim extremists as somehow representing ‘real’ Islam.” [11] However, modernists should not be disregarded so easily, because although they diverge from classical formulations, they maintain fidelity to the canonical texts. Muhammad Abduh argued that his was a “properly understood interpretation of Islam”, consistent with the “standards of the Quran [and] the hadith.” [12]

In fact, the modernists argue that in reality it is “the inherited, calcified shari’a tradition” that does “not reflect the true spirit of the Qur’an and the Prophet’s Sunna.” They disregard the classical formulation as “centuries old legal baggage derived from the [spurious] Pact of ‘Umar.” [13] The modernists look instead to the Constitution of Medina, drafted by the Prophet Muhammad, which granted “equality” to the Jewish residents of the city. No jizya was taken from them, and they served in the military alongside Muslims. The nineteenth century Islamic reformers “cited the ‘Constitution of Medina’ as a model of good sectarian relations. If the Prophet could extend political rights to non-Muslims then so too could a modernist Islamic polity, without endangering its Islamic character.” [14]

The Constitution of Medina declared that the “Muslims of Quraish and Yathrib, and those [Jews] who followed them and joined them…are one nation (ummah) to the exclusion of all men.” Nineteenth century modernists used this powerful sentence to dismiss the medieval division of the world into a Muslim ummah and a non-Muslim polity. Instead, they argued that there was a religious ummah and a political ummah. Muslims and non-Muslims living in the same country were then part of the same ummah, and owed their loyalty and allegiance to each other. Similarly, Muslim Americans today believe that the United States is their ummah (nation) to which they owe their loyalty and allegiance, so when anti-Islam ideologues deride them by saying “the Muslim Americans owe their loyalty and allegiance to the ummah,” the Muslim Americans could not agree more. (Read the relevant parts of the Constitution of Medina here.)

According to the Constitution, the Muslims and Jews were obligated to defend the other in case of attack, a very real fear considering the hostile polytheist tribes surrounding Medina. Prof. Francis E. Peters writes: “Muhammad’s attitude toward the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], as he called those who shared the same scriptural tradition with Islam, was generally favorable…But as time passed, the Quran came to look on Jews and Christians as adherents of rival rather than collegial faiths. Some of this change in attitude was dictated by events at Medina itself, where Jewish tribes made up part of the population. Not only did the Jews reject Muhammad’s prophetic claims; they began secretly to connive with his enemies.” [15] Fear of a fifth column prompted the Prophet Muhammad to banish the Jewish tribes of Banu Nadir and Banu Qinaqa from Medina, a controversial decision receiving its share of criticism by historians and polemicists alike. Jewish tribes not involved in the treachery were allowed to stay in the city, so long as they honored the terms of the Constitution.

S.A. Rizvi writes: “The banishment of the Jewish tribes of Banu Nadhir and Banu Qinaqa from Medina had accentuated the animosity of the Jews towards the Muslims. These tribes had settled down at Khaibar at a distance of about eighty miles from Medina.” [16] Two years later, the banished Banu Nadir sought to exact revenge, and joined the polytheists in an assault on Medina. The Banu Nadir bribed various tribes to join in the attack, including the Banu Ghatafan, the Bani Asad, and the Banu Sulaym. They also convinced a Jewish tribe in Medina to attack the Muslims from the inside. The combined forces outmatched Muhammad’s army 10,000 to 3,000. However, the Muslims saved Medina from almost certain doom by building a trench which successfully impeded enemy advance, a tactic hitherto unknown to Arabia. After several weeks of trying to cross the trench, the besiegers retreated, the Quraish polytheists to Mecca and the Jews of Banu Nadir to Khaibar.

The Muslims launched a counter-attack on Khaibar, and won a decisive victory. Terms of the surrender included a provision for the defeated Jews to “relinquish any intention of maintaining a military force and to rely on Muslims for their personal security and that of their possessions in exchange for the payment of [jizya].” [17] This was the first time jizya was instituted, and the context in which it was. In the time of the Prophet Muhammad, no other condition was placed on the dhimmis, except that of jizya and the prohibition from serving in a military capacity. As such, the conditions placed on them seemed to be about security rather than humiliation.

As the Islamic legal tradition developed, the jizya became accepted as the normative practice towards non-Muslims (along with the trappings of the Pact of Umar), whereas the Constitution of Medina fell to the wayside. Islamic reformers in the nineteenth century, however, argued that jizya is to be demanded only of those disbelievers who have “violated their pledges (of peace)…and attacked you first” (Quran, 9:13), those whose belligerence must be “subdued” (Quran, 9:29). The Prophet Muhammad’s decision to demilitarize certain tribes and take jizya to fund their protection was seen more of a military consideration than a theological obligation. The modernists revived the Constitution of Medina, arguing that peaceful and loyal non-Muslims ought to be considered equal citizens alongside Muslims. There was to be religious equality, with people of all faiths having the same rights and obligations.

These ideals were enshrined in the Objectives Resolution of 1949, a document that represents the culmination of over a century’s worth of modernist reinterpretation of Islamic texts. This fascinating synthesis of Islam and modernity declared that “the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance, and social justice as enunciated by Islam shall be fully observed…adequate provision shall be made for the [religious] minorities to freely profess and practice their religions and develop their cultures; Wherein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association…adequate provisions shall be made to safeguard the legitimate interests of [religious] minorities…” (Read more about the Objectives Resolution of 1949 here.)

The idea of religious equality may have been considered exclusively modernist a century ago, but now finds resonance in wider Islamic circles as well. As Prof. Cleveland writes: “If, after the passage of nearly a century, Abduh’s proposals seem somewhat…conservative, we must attempt to appreciate how bold they were at the time.” [17] Accordingly, numerous contemporary scholars ranging from modernist to conservative have issued rulings declaring their belief in equal citizenship regardless of religion. My very cursory research found several such Islamic intellectuals and scholars who have issued rulings saying as much, including: Jasser Auda, Tariq Ramadan, Yousuf al-Qaradawi, Rashid Al-Ganoushi, Muhammad Salim al-Awa, Muqtedar Khan, Mukarram Ahmad, Muhammad Yahya, Abdul Hameed Nomani, Syed Shahabuddin, Tahir Mahmood, Mujtaba Farooq, Ataur Rahman Qasmi, Waris Mazhari, Zafar Mahmood, S.Q.R. Ilyas, Zafarul-Islam Khan, Mirza Yawar Baig, Shahnawaz Ali Raihan, and Khaled Abou El Fadl. Representatives from the following Islamic organizations have issued these rulings: UK Board of Muslim Scholars, International Union for Muslim Scholars, European Muslim Network, Al-Nahdha Islamic Movement, World Assembly of Muslim Youth, Circle for Tradition and Progress, European Council for Fatwa and Research, International Association of Muslim Scholars, Egyptian Association for Culture and Dialogue, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, All India Jamiat Ahl-e Hadees, Jamiat Ulama-e Hind, All India Muslim Majlis-e Mushawarat, Jamaat-e Islami Hind, Muslim Personal Law Board, All India Muslim Majlis-e Mushawarat, Students Islamic Organisation, and All India Muslim Majlis-e Mushawarat. (Read these religious rulings here.)

Spencer would have unearthed this if he had only spent the couple hours I did to find it. Or had he picked up a real history book, he would have known that over a century ago, these views became the law of the land due to the efforts of the caliph and numerous Islamic intellectuals. He would have known that such a fatwa was passed by al-Azhar, the same university which he invokes as the absolute most ultimate Islamic authority when ranting about Reliance of the Traveler. He would have known that the highest religious authority in all of the Ottoman Empire declared the same. In light of all this, Spencer’s claim that the “laws [of dhimmitude] have never been abrogated or revised by any authority” is truly absurd. The only question that remains is: is his claim willful prevarication or simply the result of his lack of scholarly training?

Robert Spencer will learn to regret the day Danios spent $5 to add a used copy of The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) to his bookshelf.

I have a nagging suspicion that Spencer will now move the goalposts, and argue that there are some ultraconservative Muslims who don’t have such enlightened views about the topic. But that was not his claim. His claim was that no Islamic authority has ever “abrogated or revised” the dhimmi laws. (Can Spencer ever defend his actual argument when he debates me!?) If Spencer limited his criticism to ultraconservative Islam alone, and argued that Islamic puritans who believe in reimposing “dhimmitude” need to be opposed, I would have absolutely no issue with him. In fact, I would then support his work, and help him in that important task.

Of course, I would also be consistent and criticize extreme right-wing Christians who argue to this day that the Doctrine of Witness and of Perpetual Servitude should be revived; for example, this website (which boasts an impressive membership of a couple hundred thousand) argues that “the theologically correct, and socially just Catholic social policy is to subjugate [the Jews], regulate them, segregate them and expel them.” (Here, Spencer would mistakenly invoke the tu quoque defense, not knowing that tu quoque is not always considered a fallacy but in fact has legitimate uses; see hypocrisy, argument for equal treatment, and clean hands doctrine.)

I would also point out to Spencer that the best way to undermine ultraconservative interpretations is to support modernist ones. But Spencer wants to deny this option to Muslims, because it would mean that the entire faith of Islam could not be vilified. The only option that should be given to Muslims, according to Spencer’s philosophy, is to leave Islam, and of course it would be ideal to convert to Christianity. At the end of the day, Spencer is a Catholic polemicist who is waging a crusade against Islam. The very first words in his book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) are “Deus Vult!” (God wills it!), which was “the rallying cry of the First Crusade”; and the very last sentence of his book explicitly calls for a crusade against Islam. His book then is “Deus Vult…Crusade”, and everything in between those two words is just propaganda to justify the Crusade that God willed


http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/05/do-mus ... as-equals/
shafique
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Re: Friendly Muslim scholar explainsl the nuances of warfare May 23, 2010
the mooslims! they're heere! :P but hey Shafique, I bet you it will be another couple of days before EH starts ranting about beheading of 700 armed men,so and so, making him the most extremist religous fanatic on the forums eh!.. :bounce:
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Re: Friendly Muslim Scholar Explainsl The Nuances Of Warfare May 23, 2010
Be fair Berrin - he learnt these things at Bible camp in the US, so he's not totally to blame for believing the likes of Spencer above.

There will also be some bitter former Muslims who will also cheer him on (although they seem to be unable to put together a coherent defence in the 'most extreme religious fanatic' thread - just some griping over the deletion of 'funny' posts!)

cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Friendly Muslim scholar explainsl the nuances of warfare May 24, 2010
Berrin wrote:the mooslims! they're heere! :P but hey Shafique, I bet you it will be another couple of days before EH starts ranting about beheading of 700 armed men,so and so, making him the most extremist religous fanatic on the forums eh!.. :bounce:


No, of course I won't be.

I had no idea that the men and boys the Muslims savagely beheaded were armed.

You make it sound like they were beheaded in the midst of a battle.

They weren't, the unarmed villagers were executed by decapitation and their corpses were tossed in trenches.

Oh, and there was also a female (who may have been mentally ill) who was beheaded as well.

She dropped a millstone on a Muslim soldier during her tribe's fight for its very survival.

Perhaps Israel should take a leaf out of Muhammad's playbook and execute stone throwers.

What do you think?

-- Mon May 24, 2010 3:49 am --

shafique wrote:Be fair Berrin - he learnt these things at Bible camp in the US, so he's not totally to blame for believing the likes of Spencer above.

There will also be some bitter former Muslims who will also cheer him on (although they seem to be unable to put together a coherent defence in the 'most extreme religious fanatic' thread - just some griping over the deletion of 'funny' posts!)

cheers,
Shafique


Hey, let me know if your off topic copy-paste spam post had anything to do with Jihad warfare.

From what I read, it was mostly about the Ottoman empire's abolishing of jizya and the second class status that non-Muslims were obligated to live under under an Islamic state.

But go ahead and highlight the parts that discussed perpetual warfare or even jihad.

Otherwise, I'll safely assume our bully-moderator is spamming topics once more.
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Re: Friendly Muslim Scholar Explainsl The Nuances Of Warfare May 24, 2010
You can assume what you like my dear friend.

It is a pretty safe assumption that you didn't actually read the post and will continue to believe what your Bible camp pamphlets tell you about Islam and Jihad.

However, given that you asked which part of the posts dealt with 'perpetual warfare' (and fortuitiously also deals with your Bible-camp favourite quote from 'Reliance of the Traveller) - how's this for starters:

Spencer would have unearthed this if he had only spent the couple hours I did to find it. Or had he picked up a real history book, he would have known that over a century ago, these views became the law of the land due to the efforts of the caliph and numerous Islamic intellectuals. He would have known that such a fatwa was passed by al-Azhar, the same university which he invokes as the absolute most ultimate Islamic authority when ranting about Reliance of the Traveler. He would have known that the highest religious authority in all of the Ottoman Empire declared the same. In light of all this, Spencer’s claim that the “laws [of dhimmitude] have never been abrogated or revised by any authority” is truly absurd. The only question that remains is: is his claim willful prevarication or simply the result of his lack of scholarly training?



Now, on past form you share Spencer's orientalist views and use the same tired explanations.

QED


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Shafique
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Re: Friendly Muslim scholar explainsl the nuances of warfare May 24, 2010
Hey, let me know if your off topic copy-paste spam post had anything to do with Jihad warfare.

From what I read, it was mostly about the Ottoman empire's abolishing of jizya and the second class status that non-Muslims were obligated to live under under an Islamic state.

But go ahead and highlight the parts that discussed perpetual warfare or even jihad.

Otherwise, I'll safely assume our bully-moderator is spamming topics once more.


Funny you couldn't really answer the question.

More off-topic spam from shafique.
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Re: Friendly Muslim Scholar Explainsl The Nuances Of Warfare May 24, 2010
And after I helpfully colour coded the bit you requested. Ahh - what's the matter eh, is even the summary too long for you?

Did the fact that Dhimmitude is a cornerstone of the theory of perpetual warfare/jihad totally escape you when it was discussed at Bible camp?

Or do you agree with the summary given - that Spencer is wrong to believe that Muslims want to wage perpetual war against non-Muslims and make them Dhimmis? That's what the whole article is about - showing that Spencer relies on fanciful interpretations and doesn't rely on history books/facts. Sounds awfully familiar! :)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Friendly Muslim scholar explainsl the nuances of warfare May 24, 2010
Cornerstone or not, the fact that your own highlights do not mention warfare or jihad are telling and show that your copy/paste spam is unrelated to the topic at hand.

Though you may contact Robert Spencer to see if he has any response to the fact that the Turks finally alleviated the plight of non-Muslims living under an Islamic state.

One has to wonder if what the Turks did actually effected any school of Islamic jurisprudence or if this was simply a case of the Turks recognizing the inherent discriminatory and supremacist beliefs within Islam and changing them for the better.
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Re: Friendly Muslim Scholar Explainsl The Nuances Of Warfare May 24, 2010
I even highlighted 'Al Azhar' for you. Sigh. (You do know where this university is don't you - you've quoted it in the past, you know. Hint - it is not in Turkey)

But hey, if you are agreeing with the post and disowning Spencer's views - bravo! There's hope for you yet.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Friendly Muslim Scholar Explainsl The Nuances Of Warfare May 24, 2010
You two still at it????? :roll:

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Re: Friendly Muslim scholar explainsl the nuances of warfare May 24, 2010
A pure beauty from "God".. from the one that EH denies,as in the case of his religion.. :wink: :D
Thanks Bora.
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Re: Friendly Muslim scholar explainsl the nuances of warfare May 24, 2010
Berrin, do you believe in evolution or do you interpret the Koran, where it talks about creationism, literally?
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Re: Friendly Muslim scholar explainsl the nuances of warfare May 24, 2010
start a thread on the religion forum. but in short i believe in everthing said in quran...Have you read it completly?
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