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event horizon · Sep 14, 2009

shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:Now, back to my question:

Interesting that when asked to condemn Goldstein's actions and confirm that he was a religously motivated terrorist who killed whilst in Army uniform, rats scurries away and reads Fox News, rather than face the hard cold stats.
...

I really now wonder whether he does, after all, belong to the group of people who refuse to condemn Goldstein - or even those who still venerate what he did. I can't think why else rats evades this question - he condemns terrorism, he says, but does not confirm that he agrees Goldstein was a religously motivated terrorist.

Will we get an answer this time?

The question still hangs....

.still hanging..

Still waiting for the confirmation that rats/ikka/eh agrees that Goldstein is a religiously motivated terrorist who was an Israeli Army officer - many believe he was a hero and not a terrorist. He was also a white American - so some would not call him 'middle eastern' (and the qualification of 'middle easter' for 'terrorists' also speaks volumes).

Therefore, still waiting to see whether Ikka is an apologist for Goldstein or does condemn him unreservedly and acknowledges him as a religiously motivated terrorist.

Cheers,
Shafique

As I said, I have no problem condemning Middle Eastern terrorists just like I have no problem condemning Afghan, Pakistani, British Pakistani, Indonesian, Malaysian terrorists etc,.

For instance, I totally condemn the murder of seven 11 year old school girls who were killed by a religiously motivated Jordanian terrorist whilst he was in his army uniform - and a worryingly percentage of Jordan's population venerate this man, including many who want him free after only serving 12 years -

AMMAN - King Abdullah II was urged on Sunday to pardon a Jordanian soldier who is serving a life sentence for killing seven Israeli schoolgirls in 1997.

"After around 12 years in prison, Ahmad Dakamseh deserves your majesty's special pardon," a group of 70 Islamists, unionists, lawyers, human rights activists and former officials said in a signed letter to the king.

(and now Jordan's Muslim Brotherhood are calling for his release again)

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticlen.a ... eeast&col=

But what does condemning the actions of religiously motivated Middle Eastern terrorists, such as Ahmad Dakamseh, have to do with this thread?

Speedhump · Sep 14, 2009

Isn't it a regularly held view that the strongest proponents of something are people that have been converted to it from an opposite position?

Like the most virulent upholders of smoking bans are those people who have given up a heavy smoking habit, rather than those who have never smoked?

If true, it would give good grounds for expecting terrorist recruits to come from the ranks of those converted to Islam, especially those with an axe to grind against their former beliefs.

Just tossing this in, I don't have an opinion myself.

event horizon · Sep 14, 2009

Yep, and that's what terrorism experts are saying - those who convert to Islam are often times more religious than those who were born into the religion. That includes resorting to extremism as a way to 'prove yourself'. Of course, this goes over shafique's head.

shafique · Sep 15, 2009

event horizon wrote:
shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:Now, back to my question:

Interesting that when asked to condemn Goldstein's actions and confirm that he was a religously motivated terrorist who killed whilst in Army uniform, rats scurries away and reads Fox News, rather than face the hard cold stats.
...

I really now wonder whether he does, after all, belong to the group of people who refuse to condemn Goldstein - or even those who still venerate what he did. I can't think why else rats evades this question - he condemns terrorism, he says, but does not confirm that he agrees Goldstein was a religously motivated terrorist.

Will we get an answer this time?

The question still hangs....

.still hanging..

Still waiting for the confirmation that rats/ikka/eh agrees that Goldstein is a religiously motivated terrorist who was an Israeli Army officer - many believe he was a hero and not a terrorist. He was also a white American - so some would not call him 'middle eastern' (and the qualification of 'middle easter' for 'terrorists' also speaks volumes).

Therefore, still waiting to see whether Ikka is an apologist for Goldstein or does condemn him unreservedly and acknowledges him as a religiously motivated terrorist.

Cheers,
Shafique

As I said, I have no problem condemning Middle Eastern terrorists just like I have no problem condemning Afghan, Pakistani, British Pakistani, Indonesian, Malaysian terrorists etc,.

Why the reluctance to condemn the American born doctor and religous terrorist, Goldstein?

(I only mention he is American born, because you seem to have missed out any white caucasian terrorists in your list of those who you condemn. I personally don't check a person's nationality before condemning their crime)

There are those who continue to venerate his actions - can you at least confirm you join me in condemning him as a religiously motivated terrorist.

If you can't say yes - should I infer that you do not condemn him unreservedly?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Sep 15, 2009

Speedhump wrote:If true, it would give good grounds for expecting terrorist recruits to come from the ranks of those converted to Islam, especially those with an axe to grind against their former beliefs.

Just tossing this in, I don't have an opinion myself.

Well, it is a valid theory and one that we were examining in this thread.

The terrorists from among the Muslims have been overwhelmingly non-converts, but do have other characteristic traits -which they shared with the converts who chose terrorism.

By contrast, if one reads the article posted by 'eh' about the 14000 converts in the UK since 2001, one sees that those converting - far from hating the societies they live in, were much more intent in explaining what attracted to Islam - the positive effect it had on their lives etc.

The contrast with the youngsters who chose the anarchist/'jihadist' route is stark - but these 'numpties' as I call them weren't/aren't representative of the wider Muslim community, and certainly not of Islamic teachings (the police and government are at pains to point out).

The kids who shoot up high schools in the US - they are terrorists and have killed more people than Muslim terrorists in the UK. People have tried to link their actions to Goth culture, heavy metal music, internet chat rooms etc etc - yet ultimately, some kids go postal and just look for an excuse to do so.

Just look at the list of school shootings - predominantly a Western phenomenon and concentrated in the US - and seemingly increasing in frequency over the years:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

(The frightening thing is that some of these character types are finding themselves in the US military and are living out their playstation fantasies over in the MidEast)

The ones who choose to hang their actions on the 'jihadist cause' are using it as a convenient label. The fact that the 'oppression' etc they are railing against is real, does not excuse their actions - which is condemned by all moral, let alone religious, authorities.

Islamic leadership have been at pains to unreservedly condemn terrorism, the Uk and US governments and police are similarly at pains to distance the religion of Islam from terrorism - but yet the old Orientalist views are still to be found today residing on may websites and as an undercurrent in the likes of Fox News etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

Speedhump · Sep 15, 2009

Thanks Shafique, that makes sense to me, and in fact the exponents of terror in the UK have not been converts as you say. The liquid bombers just convicted, the doctors involved in the Scottish car bomb and another attempt, in fact all the others who have been caught with Jihadist literature in their bedrooms and bomb making equipment. I don't recall reading of a single Western convert to Islam amongst them. The recruiters seem to pick up their bomb-fodder from the ranks of the malcontented Muslim, who is often well educated, which I find strange. They seem to have some seething resentment of the country in which they live. In fact many British Cold War double agents working for Russia in the UK were very often very well educated and free thinking, but who felt they were passed over or harshly dealt with by the West (or going back 30-40 years, were homosexual which was a bad place to be then). They didn't do it for the money, or the virgins.

Jihadism (in the current narrow media useage of the term being violence against hard or soft Western targets) in the UK seems picked up as a cause by any lowlife who due to his own inability or unwillingness cannot integrate into a society which in truth does accept allcomers.

Playing the race card, in a very negative way?

shafique · Sep 15, 2009

There appears to me to be a parallel track here when it comes to 'jihadist' terror attacks.

First there is the 'Al Qaeda' league of terrorists - those who are actually controlled by Bin Laden or his organisation, who have actually carried out only a limited number of attacks on Western targets, IIRC. The embassy bombings in Africa and the bombing attempt of the WTC, as well as 9/11.

Bin Laden was at pains to explain his motivations - and points out that his gripe is political and not because he is anti-Christian or anti-Jew (he infamously challenged the US and UK to reflect on why he wasn't targetting Sweden). His methods I disagree with, but the source of his gripes are real and are well known. He speaks out against Saudi Royals and other Muslim leaders as well.

The bona fide 'al qaeda' (which I think is an oxymoron - see 'power of nightmares') - knows what they are doing and +can+ construct bombs etc. They were trained by the SAS and American special forces after all when they were fighting the Russians.

Then we have the numpty wannabes - and as you say, they include otherwise educated people - eg the Glasgow airport bombers (although ultimately they were numpties when it came to basic bomb building and knowledge of explosives/flamables)

In the latter cases, the official hype has been amplified by the media. Remember the Ricin plots, or the mass arrests - which all fizzled out and turned out to be nothing. Then there are the entrapments - eg the Toronto bomb plot.

So - I do agree that we have numpties who are malcontents and misfits (the convicted liquid bombers are a case in point) who are flocking to the 'jihadi' cause. My contention is that their significance is hyped beyond recognition of the actual threat they pose. But hey, that is the age we live in - we like having our fads. Eventually we'll tire of it and start picking on other groups - eg the Roma, Indians or the Chinese?

Apologies if I'm rambling a bit more than usual - feeling a bit hungry today

Cheers,
Shafique

Speedhump · Sep 15, 2009

Almost Ifthar!

I see on the FBI website that Bin Laden is not named as wanted specifically for the 9/11 attack. Is there hard evidence to link Al Quaeda to it, or did he admit to it? I'm not sure.

It's a digression anyway.

desertdudeshj · Sep 15, 2009

I don't think there is any hard or soft evidence linking ol laden to the 9/11 events. I'm one of those guys who believe anybody but the people who the FBI says did it, did it. If that makes any sense at all.

I'm more inclined to the inside job theory ( Conspiracy theory ? )

Speedhump · Sep 15, 2009

Mossad...

desertdudeshj · Sep 15, 2009

I wouldn't be surprised.

event horizon · Sep 16, 2009

I don't recall reading of a single Western convert to Islam amongst them.

Eh? I think there may have been one or (three) converts to Islam involved in the airline bomb plots.

shafique · Sep 16, 2009

Ah - brain now functioning a bit better...

On the 9/11 - my theory is that the FBI etc have worked out that the best way to hide a conspiracy is to include the facts within a web of conspiracy theories - so most will dismiss all the conspiracies.

But then again, I think it gives them too much credit!

Cheers,
Shafique

Speedhump · Sep 16, 2009

event horizon wrote:
I don't recall reading of a single Western convert to Islam amongst them.

Eh? I think there may have been one or (three) converts to Islam involved in the airline bomb plots.

I mentioned: The liquid bombers just convicted, the doctors involved in the Scottish car bomb and another attempt, in fact all the others who have been caught with Jihadist literature in their bedrooms and bomb making equipment.

Donald Stewart -Whyte, the Muslim convert accused in the liquid bomb plot was acquitted on all charges. I'm not going to argue with the Court's decision.

Have any of these been converts apart from the abovementioned guy? I didn't think they were. Anyway I am not going to get embroiled in the rather tortuous debate that has been going on about providing evidence of one convert committing a terrorist act.

shafique · Sep 20, 2009

Bump for eh..

shafique wrote:
event horizon wrote:
shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:Now, back to my question:

Interesting that when asked to condemn Goldstein's actions and confirm that he was a religously motivated terrorist who killed whilst in Army uniform, rats scurries away and reads Fox News, rather than face the hard cold stats.
...

I really now wonder whether he does, after all, belong to the group of people who refuse to condemn Goldstein - or even those who still venerate what he did. I can't think why else rats evades this question - he condemns terrorism, he says, but does not confirm that he agrees Goldstein was a religously motivated terrorist.

Will we get an answer this time?

The question still hangs....

.still hanging..

Still waiting for the confirmation that rats/ikka/eh agrees that Goldstein is a religiously motivated terrorist who was an Israeli Army officer - many believe he was a hero and not a terrorist. He was also a white American - so some would not call him 'middle eastern' (and the qualification of 'middle easter' for 'terrorists' also speaks volumes).

Therefore, still waiting to see whether Ikka is an apologist for Goldstein or does condemn him unreservedly and acknowledges him as a religiously motivated terrorist.

Cheers,
Shafique

As I said, I have no problem condemning Middle Eastern terrorists just like I have no problem condemning Afghan, Pakistani, British Pakistani, Indonesian, Malaysian terrorists etc,.

Why the reluctance to condemn the American born doctor and religous terrorist, Goldstein?

(I only mention he is American born, because you seem to have missed out any white caucasian terrorists in your list of those who you condemn. I personally don't check a person's nationality before condemning their crime)

There are those who continue to venerate his actions - can you at least confirm you join me in condemning him as a religiously motivated terrorist.

If you can't say yes - should I infer that you do not condemn him unreservedly?

Cheers,
Shafique

arfqq1 · Sep 22, 2009

I love the readings of all the converts to Islam by Shafique.
Just one question please.
Who actually trains and corrupts the converts? Or may i suggest that it could be the Islamic Fundamentalists.

melika969 · Sep 22, 2009

arfqq1 wrote:I love the readings of all the converts to Islam by Shafique.
Just one question please.
Who actually trains and corrupts the converts? Or may i suggest that it could be the Islamic Fundamentalists.

I strongly recommend you to study more about Islam, before converting to it. You should hear the other side, people who are muslims but don't wanna be anymore. like me!

shafique · Sep 22, 2009

Well, the one Muslim terrorist that 'eh' counted was trained and influenced by other numpties who are attracted to violence despite the teachings of Islam.

One convert terrorist amongst all the converts to Islam seems hardly a basis to conclude that Islam is at fault.

We have one instance of an American Doctor, who emigrated to occupied Palestine, joined the Israeli Army and then (because of his religious beliefs) put on his uniform on the feast of Purim and then went to a historic place of worship and gunned down unarmed worshippers because they belonged to another religion. This man was Baruch Goldstein and there are those who view him as a hero and others who refuse to acknowledge he is terrorist - 'eh' among the latter.

I wouldn't condemn Judaism for Goldstein's actions - even though he did what he did because of his view of Judaism. There are the rabbis who are anti-Zionist, and all the Israelis who work actively against all the injustices carried out by the state of Israel.

Similarly, the converts and ordinary Muslims who condemn terrorism form the majority of Muslims. In this thread we have seen that over a 8 year period, only one covert committed an act of terrorism in the UK (according to eh's count) - killing some 26 people - and he was a young man who shared many characteristics with the other numpties who had fantasies about blowing up their schoolfriends.

Sorry, a long answer - but the summary is that the numpty terrorists are trained by other numpty terrorists - the proof that the majority of converts are credits to society is in the article posted by 'eh' about the 1400 converts since 9/11 in the UK.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 23, 2009

arfqq1 wrote:I love the readings of all the converts to Islam by Shafique.
Just one question please.
Who actually trains and corrupts the converts? Or may i suggest that it could be the Islamic Fundamentalists.

Arfqq1, thank you for your question. Converts to Islam are motivated to carry out terror attacks against Western targets based on the teachings of Islam and mainstream interpretations of its texts.

In Sunni Islam, it is a communal obligation for the Muslim community (ummah) to wage Jihad warfare against unbelievers (9:29). According to the Reliance of the Traveler, a mainstream manual of Islamic sacred law which is endorsed by al-Azhar university in Egypt, the Caliph is to wage perpetual Jihad warfare against unbelievers until the world has been conquered by Islam.

According to Islamic law, unbelievers are given three choices by the invading Muslim armies: to convert to Islam, to remain to your original faith and live as second class citizens under the new Islamic state, or to die if you refuse the first two.

@O9.8: The Objectives of Jihad

The caliph (o25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4) -which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High,

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled" (Koran 9.29)

http://www.nku.edu/~kenneyr/Islam/Reliance.html

For a different perspective to correct the spin of the previous poster, I suggest you read the writings of mainstream Sunni Muslim scholars on this subject.

It should speak volumes, in my opinion, that the views of Jihad by non-specialist wikipedia-crawlers is in sharp contrast with the views of learned theologians.

But hey, you're free to make up your own mind as to who is more knowledgeable of the facts in question:

1 – The main goal of jihad is to make the people worship Allaah alone and to bring them forth from servitude to people to servitude to the Lord of people. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allaah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zaalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers)”

[al-Baqarah 2:193]

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah), then certainly, Allaah is All-Seer of what they do”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

Ibn Jareer said:

So fight them until there is no more shirk, and none is worshipped except Allaah alone with no partner or associate, and trials and calamities, which are disbelief and polytheism, are lifted from the slaves of Allaah on earth, and religion is all for Allaah alone, and so that obedience and worship will be devoted to Him alone and none else.

Ibn Katheer said: Allaah commands us to fight the kuffaar so that there will be no fitnah, i.e., shirk, and the religion will all be for Allaah alone, i.e., the religion of Allaah will prevail over all other religions.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “"I have been commanded (by Allaah) to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and they establish regular prayer and pay zakaah, then if they do that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning will be with Allaah." Narrated by al-Bukhaari (24), Muslim (33).

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been sent just before the Hour with the sword, so that Allaah will be worshipped alone with no partner or associate.”

Narrated by Ahmad, 4869; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2831.

This purpose of jihad was present in the minds of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) during their battles with the enemies of Allaah. Al-Bukhaari (2925) narrated that Jubayr ibn Hayyah said: ‘Umar sent people to all the regions to fight the mushrikeen… so ‘Umar recruited us and appointed al-Nu’maan ibn Muqarrin to lead us. When we were in the land of the enemy, the representative of Chosroes came out to us with forty thousand troops. An interpreter stood up and said: “Let one of you speak to me.” Al-Mugheerah said: “Ask whatever you want.” He asked, “Who are you?” He (al-Mugheerah) said: “We are some people from among the Arabs. We used to lead a harsh and miserable life, sucking on animal skins and date stones because of hunger, wearing clothes made of camel and goat hair, worshipping trees and rocks. While we were in this state, the Lord of the heavens and the earth, exalted be His name and glorified be His greatness, sent to us a Prophet from amongst ourselves, whose father and mother we know. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), commanded us to fight you until you worship Allaah alone or pay the jizyah. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us the message from our Lord, that whoever among us is killed will go to Paradise to enjoy delights such as no one has ever seen, and whoever among us is left will become your master.”

This is the truth that the Sahaabah and leaders of the Muslims proclaimed in their military campaigns.

Rab’i ibn ‘Aamir said, when Rustam the commander of the Persian armies asked him, “Why have you come?”: “Allaah has sent us to bring forth whomsoever He wills from the worship of man to the worship of Allaah.

When ‘Uqbah ibn Naafi’ reached Tangiers, he rode his horse into the water until the water was up to its chest, then he said: “O Allaah, bear witness that I have done my utmost, and were it not for this sea I would have travelled throughout the land fighting those who disbelieve in You, until none is worshipped except You.”

8 – Acquiring booty

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been sent ahead of the Hour with the sword so that Allaah will be worshipped alone, and my provision has been placed in the shade of my spear, and humiliation has been decreed for those who go against my command, and whoever imitates a people is one of them.” Narrated by Ahmad, 4869; Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2831.

Al-Haafiz said:

This hadeeth indicates that war booty is permissible for this ummah, and that the provision of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has been placed in war booty and not in other kinds of earnings. Hence some of the scholars said that it is the best kind of earnings.

Al-Qurtubi said:

Allaah sent provision to His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by means of his striving and He made it by means of the best kind of striving which is earning it by means of force and strength.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out for the battle of Badr to meet the caravan of Abu Sufyaan.

Al-Qurtubi said: The fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out to meet the caravan indicates that it is permissible to take booty because it is a halaal source of income. This refutes Maalik’s view that this is makrooh, when he said that this was fighting for worldly gains.

Al-Shawkaani said: Ibn Abi Jamrah said: The scholars of hadeeth are of the view that if the primary motive is to make the word of Allaah supreme, it does not matter what else is also achieved.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34647/jihaad

I hope this primer of Jihad warfare in Islam has brought you up to speed on the actual teachings of Islam vis-a-vis unbelievers and how, according to the Koran, Sunnah and Hadith, Muslims are to treat unbelievers who live outside the domain of Islam (house of war).

event horizon · Sep 23, 2009

event horizon · Sep 25, 2009

In any event, it would be interesting to guess which convert will commit or attempt to commit the next terror attack - Muslim convert or non-Muslim convert?

Well, that certainly did not take very long...

CHICAGO — A 29-year-old man who idolized American-born Taliban soldier John Walker Lindh has been arrested after attempting to detonate what he thought was a bomb inside a van outside a federal courthouse in the Illinois capital of Springfield, officials said Thursday.

Michael C. Finton, also known as Talib Islam, was arrested Wednesday and charged in a criminal complaint with one count of attempting to murder federal officers or employees and trying to detonate a weapon of mass destruction. Federal officials said the case has no connections with the major terrorism investigation under way in Colorado and New York.

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/2 ... 98669.html

Any word on your tally yet, shafique?

How many converts to other religions have successfully or unsuccessfully carried out terror attacks based on the texts and teachings of their religion?

shafique · Sep 25, 2009

Ok - so now we've expanded the count to include the Americas... you should have said. (You previously were only counting the UK)

So what is your count now? - one actual terrorist and now 6? accused of terrorism? (Including the numpties who were entrapped, like this guy here)

My count is still only one Catholic convert whose actions have caused more deaths than the 26 killed by the Brit numpty. I got sidetracked by the discussion about whether you condemn Goldstein as religious terrorist, or whether you actually define terrorist as "Muslim".

I thought it would be harder - but the stats speak for themselves, and make a nice contrast with the sensationalist headlines.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 25, 2009

6 accused of terrorism? We're just talking about the UK, right?

lol

shafique · Sep 25, 2009

I included a ? - after the 6, and also after I asked you what your count is.

26 killed by one numpty, compared to the litany of Fox News headlines - but we started this thread to check whether the headlines matched the statistical reality. Thus far stats seem to be winning.

I understand that you want to find comfort in the headlines rather than the stats - but that is a circular argument (that the headlines are correct because I want to believe in them despite the actual stats).

So, what is your count and is it now just UK and USA or is there some other territory you want to include?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 25, 2009

I'm sorry, what are we looking for in the stats again?

I thought the OP was very clear:

I am more than happy to compare the number of terrorist attacks (thwarted ones included) of Muslim converts with the number of terror attacks (thwarted ones included) by converts to other faiths and then draw any conclusions from these numbers.

Please let me know if you're still confused.

shafique · Sep 25, 2009

Yes, hence I asked what your latest count was - and I also specified we would count the numbers of victims.

Apologies if I was unclear - but I did give 1 and 6? for the counts of actual and alleged terrorists. I also gave you the number 26 for the body count of the one numpty you came up with.

So what is your latest count?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 29, 2009

Oh dear, looks like I accidentally stumbled upon a bunch of converts to Christianity who subsequently joined a Christian fundie terror group:

Investigators have discovered a "Jihadi village" of white German al-Qaeda insurgents, including Muslim converts, in Pakistan's tribal areas close to the Afghan border.

Khalid Khawaja, a former Pakistan intelligence officer, who describes himself as a friend of Osama bin Laden, said he was aware of a German contingent and that there were a number of Swedish converts too who had arrived in Pakistan "for Jihad".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... gents.html

Peaceful jihad, such as the most important type of Jihad according to Muslim scholars, I am sure.

Anyways, happy to compare the number of converts to Islam who carry out/plot terror attacks with the number of converts to other religions who do the same.

Just waiting (patiently) for shafique to provide his stats.

shafique · Sep 29, 2009

eh-oh, please stop dancing around like Tinky-winky and focus.

You started in the UK, the count is one terrorist, which I matched.

Next you seemed to want to jump over to North America, now you are jumping to Pakistan.

Did you not understand that I asked for you to produce your latest count, including victims?

I know it must take a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that contradicts your world view and the Fox News headlines, but please try and focus and produce stats.

I'm quite happy to compare my statistic of one convert with whatever you produce, and then may even be inclined to look for more examples if required (when you produce an updated count).

As it stands, you have one numpty who you happily condemn, whilst you refuse to condemn Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish Terrorist - so you do seem have 'religious blinkers' when it comes to condemning terrorists. This was suspected all along, but the confirmation is in the refusal to condemn Goldstein.

But just to be clear - I'm waiting for you latest count, as far as I can see, it still stands at one terrorist who killed 26, and a few more suspected terrorists. All mouth, no trousers indeed.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 29, 2009

Epic fail by shafique for being unable to understand what was written in the OP:

I am more than happy to compare the number of terrorist attacks (thwarted ones included) of Muslim converts with the number of terror attacks (thwarted ones included) by converts to other faiths and then draw any conclusions from these numbers.

Do you have difficulty with understanding the post, shafique?

By my count, under these guidelines, we have far more than one Muslim convert 'numpty'.

shafique · Sep 30, 2009

Did I miss your updated count?

As, I said, if you're having trouble with the arithmetic - I'm sure others will jump in and help.

Thus far I can only see one numpty terrorist which I've matched. I've also given you an example of a Jewish Terrorist and asked you to condemn him as such - you refuse.

Therefore, this thread has served its purpose - to show that your views are based more on perceptions than statistics. The fact that it's taken so many posts to turn up so few actual terrorists shows the truth in the observation that you're 'all mouth no trousers'!

Cheers,
Shafique

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