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Dillon · Feb 27, 2011

Well as I've already posted!

Dillon wrote:What does it really matter what 'label' you want to put on it?

Those who are interested will read the article for what it is and decide for themselves, it isn't a competition is it?

Regards

shafique · Feb 27, 2011

Excellent - so let's move on.

What are the other reasons for the different levels of coverages of 'bomb plots to designed to kill civilians' - this real one, and the fake one in the OP.

There's an obvious reason to me - but let's see if there are more creative explanations out there.

I'm especially interested in discussing the wrong perception that 'bomb plots to kill innocent civilians' in the US and Europe are more likely to come from Muslims than from non-Muslims, despite the actual evidence which shows that there are more of the non-Muslim 'bomb plots to kill innocent civilians' than there are Muslim 'bomb plots to kill innocent civilians'.

In Europe there ones carried out by Muslims are less than 1%, for example.

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Feb 27, 2011

I'm especially interested in discussing...

Well I sincerely hope you find someone interested enough to engage you in your latest piece of spin Shaf, I've heard it all before.

:lol:

shafique · Feb 27, 2011

Thanks - I was scratching my head wondering whether you'd be able to come up with another creative explanation. I guess we have our answer.

So, anyone else want to tackle why this real terrorist plot (aka 'bomb plot to kill innocent americans') wasn't as hyped as fake terrorist plots mentioned in the OP?

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Feb 27, 2011

shafique wrote:Thanks - I was scratching my head wondering whether you'd be able to come up with another creative explanation. I guess we have our answer.

'another creative explanation'? and where was my first, ooh wait...yes it was the definitions from the OED wasn't it? thank you Shaf, but I'll leave all the creative writing to you.

:lol:

shafique · Feb 27, 2011

Hey, I thought your arguments that the FBI is wrong were indeed creative. Respect is given where it is due.

But back to the issue at hand:

I'm especially interested in discussing the wrong perception that 'bomb plots to kill innocent civilians' in the US and Europe are more likely to come from Muslims than from non-Muslims, despite the actual evidence which shows that there are more of the non-Muslim 'bomb plots to kill innocent civilians' than there are Muslim 'bomb plots to kill innocent civilians'.

In Europe there ones carried out by Muslims are less than 1%, for example.

(Oh, I'm happy to discuss the labeling questions with others - those that agree with the FBI and those who don't. I'm with the FBI on this issue - I've not found the counter arguments convincing.)

Some background info on European terrorist numbers:
dubai-politics-talk/terrorism-the-facts-t41918-15.html#p360483

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora Bora · Feb 27, 2011

Shaf, once again you are evasive in addressing my posts. What exactly is the political movitation of white supremists. It's amazing how people "pick and chose" what the FBI, CIA, Secret Services put out there. I know from a very personal experience that the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security are major failures. If you would like me to share my personal experience let me know. It may enlighten you somewhat.

I don't know about anywhere else, but in the US for the majority of Americans, terrorism translates into Muslim/Islamists. The FBI's statements take the focus off of what it actually is and puts it on Muslims, knowing full well that to say it is terrorism will be perceived by the majority of Americans as having something to do with Islam, putting the focus on, for the most part Arabs. Unfortunately the majority of Americans don't include Pakistanis or even "home grown" terrorists within the meaning of terrorism. When a certain group is targeted, such as black, Arabs, Pakistanis, Chinese, etc., it is racial.

I would think you, if anybody, would see the greater possibility of the spin and coverup and misdirection that the FBI is putting on this. It has not been confirmed that it was "terrorism". The FBI is stating that they "suspect" terrorism, which is enough to manipulate people (Americans) into thinking that it terrorism as they (Americans) know it which is = Arabs/Islam.

Since you are set in wanting to believe it was terrorism and can't address my posts - in fair play - then as far as I'm concerned - there is nothing further to discuss as it clearly appears that there is a lack of contribution on your side in responding accordingly.

shafique · Feb 27, 2011

On the first page of this thread I already quoted what the political motivation was according to the reports. Here it is again - I've highlighted it for you.

shafique wrote:Here's some more info on the bomb plot from the Seattle Times.

Political motivation - an 'Aryan homeland'?:
In the 30 years between the Aryan church bombing and the attempted bombing in Spokane, groups and individuals with ties to the Aryan Nations, the Ku Klux Klan and other hate groups have clustered in this remote corner of the Pacific Northwest, many attracted by Butler and his effort to create an Aryan homeland.

Others came "for the remoteness. For the 'live-and-let-live' attitude," said retired journalist Bill Morlin, who as a reporter at the Spokane Spokesman-Review newspaper covered Butler and the Northwest Christian Identity movement from Butler's immigration from California in the mid-1970s until his death at 89 in 2004.

Morlin is skeptical of any explanation for the bomb that doesn't involve Aryans, other hate groups or anti-government extremists — or perhaps a "lone wolf" sharing those views but operating independently.

And a re-statement of the FBI classification (and as I pointed out in the OP - the crime hasn't been definitively solved, but it looks very likely it is white supremacists):
So far, the attempted bombing remains unsolved. But the presumption is that it was a race-based hate crime, and has been labeled an act of domestic terrorism by the FBI.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... mb09m.html

I'm not sure what I'm picking and choosing - in this case the FBI are calling this terrorism, I happen to agree that this attempted bomb attack on civilians is an act of terrorism. That the terrorists are probably white racists doesn't change this for me (or the FBI).

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora Bora · Feb 27, 2011

Too bad that political motivation doesn't even come close to ever becoming a reality, especially in the US!!! I'm sure there is an island somewhere in the world that they could buy. WAIT!!!! I know of a few right here in Dubai at a real bargain. :lol:

Akasha · Feb 27, 2011

LOL if you're going to play the 'definition of' game then here they all are:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl ... d=0CCEQkAE

Definitions of terrorism on the Web:

the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion. At present, the International community has been unable to formulate a universally agreed, legally binding, criminal law definition of terrorism. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

From 2000 to the present, the British Parliament passed a series of Terrorism Acts that were aimed at terrorism in general, rather than specifically focussed on terrorism related to Northern Ireland. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_(United_Nations_Measures)_Order_2006

The deliberate commission of an act of violence to create an emotional response through the suffering of the victims in the furtherance of a political or social agenda; Violence against civilians to achieve military or political objectives; A psychological strategy of war for gaining political ...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terrorism

terror - panic: an overwhelming feeling of fear and anxiety
terror - a person who inspires fear or dread; "he was the terror of the neighborhood"
terror - a very troublesome child
terror - the use of extreme fear in order to coerce people (especially for political reasons); "he used terror to make them confess"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

terrorist - a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

The Reign of Terror (27 June 1793 – 27 July 1794), also known as the The Terror (la Terreur) was a period of violence that occurred for one year and two months after the onset of the French Revolution, incited by conflict between rival political factions, the Girondins and the Jacobins, and ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terror

The Terror is a 1963 American horror film produced by Roger Corman. It was also released as Lady of the Shadows, The Castle of Terror and The Haunting.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terror_(1963_film)

The Terror is the name of a 2007 novel by American author Dan Simmons. The novel is a fictionalized account of Franklin's lost expedition of HMS Erebus and HMS Terror under Captain Sir John Franklin to the Arctic to force the Northwest Passage in 1845 - 1848. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terror_(novel)

Terror is an American hardcore punk/metalcore band from Los Angeles, California, formed in 2002. Though the group consider themselves a "hardcore" band, guitarist Doug Weber says Terror, "sounds like all of the old metal bands I used to listen to. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_(band)

The Terror is a supervillain from The Tick comics published by New England Comics Press and created by Ben Edlund, the Terror is an aged supervillain who is variously estimated as being between 104-112 years old. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_(New_England_Comics)

Terror is a fictional character in the Marvel Universe who debuted in the pages of Mystic Comics, a publication of Marvel Comics' 1940s predecessor, Timely Comics .
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_(Marvel_Comics)

shafique · Feb 28, 2011

Thanks Chocs.

Bora - you asked about their political motivation, I gave it to you (on pg 1).

I didn't realise that the political motivations had to be reasonable or close to reality for a bomb plot to be called terrorism. Surely your logic would mean that any Moooslim fanatic that wishes to establish Islamic rule over the US and wants to blow up people - is NOT a terrorist by your criterion (on the basis that an Islamic state is less remote than an Aryan state).

Anyway - I agree with you, the political motivation of these white supremacist terrorists bears no relation to reality. But yet they are killing people for this reason. That is why they are called terrorists.

What is interesting though, is that when I started the thread - I didn't think that there would be any debate over this terrorist bomb plot being an act of terrorism or not.

The FBI have classified it as such and Seattle Times and Salon article rightly didn't question the use of the term - they just used used the term to describe the bomb attempt on civilians.

Now, what will be really interesting is whether the next time a Muslim is suspected to be behind a plot to kill civilians (whether real, fake etc) whether the same people will challenge the FBI and media etc who will label the incident 'terrorism' before it is established that there is a political motivation.

We'll have to wait and see.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora Bora · Feb 28, 2011

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion. At present, the International community has been unable to formulate a universally agreed, legally binding, criminal law definition of terrorism. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

Based on the above I would say the word "terrorism" is subjective as well as selective. Which means that we can both be right, or wrong.

Dillon · Feb 28, 2011

For those of you who are STILL :lol:

struggling with the true definition of ‘racist’ and ‘terrorist’, please find herewith, From the Oxford English Dictionaries, the Worlds’ most trusted dictionaries and the definitive reference for ‘World English’.

racist
Pronunciation:/ˈreɪsɪst/
noun
• a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
adjective
• having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another: we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at a newsagents

terrorist
Pronunciation:/ˈtɛrərɪst/
noun
• a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.

You are of course free to invent as many of your own definitions as you like, just as the uninformed FBI press officer and the random internet journalist did in the OP. I suppose it all depends on what ‘language’ you wish to subscribe.

:lol:

Bora Bora · Feb 28, 2011

Dillon wrote:For those of you who are STILL struggling with the true definition of ‘racist’ and ‘terrorist’, please find herewith, From the Oxford English Dictionaries, the Worlds’ most trusted dictionaries and the definitive reference for ‘World English’.

racist
Pronunciation:/ˈreɪsɪst/
noun
• a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
adjective
• having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another: we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at a newsagents

terrorist
Pronunciation:/ˈtɛrərɪst/
noun
• a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.

You are of course free to invent as many of your own definitions as you like, just as the uninformed FBI press officer and the random internet journalist did in the OP. I suppose it all depends on what ‘language’ you wish to subscribe.

shafique · Feb 28, 2011

Now it is an FBI 'press officer'. Hmm - yet another supposition that isn't based on reality, I see - unless there's some new information not in the articles posted here.

I guess the official FBI statistics were also created by media types.

(I knew we hadn't seen the last of the 'creative explanations'! )

But the point still remains - regardless of what we label these bomb plots against civilians, one set does get more hype than the other. That was the main point of the OP.

Perhaps this is in part to the refusal to believe these are terrorist acts to begin with?

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora Bora · Feb 28, 2011

shafique wrote:Perhaps this is in part to the refusal to believe these are terrorist acts to begin with?

Cheers,
Shafique

Bit of a stretch there Shaf. :lol:

Dillon · Feb 28, 2011

There you go with your disingenuous labels again! FBI representative, FBI press officer? Six of one and half a dozen of the other.

:lol:

And my further comment for your latest edit;

:lol:

shafique · Feb 28, 2011

Official stats/Evidence we can ignore - what is the difference?

But seriously, the article in the Seattle Times just said the FBI (the organisation) has classified this as terrorism. Not a press officer or someone else that may be mistaken, the FBI:

So far, the attempted bombing remains unsolved. But the presumption is that it was a race-based hate crime, and has been labeled an act of domestic terrorism by the FBI.

If you have some new information - please share.

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Feb 28, 2011

Dillon wrote:For those of you who are STILL struggling with the true definition of ‘racist’ and ‘terrorist’, please find herewith, From the Oxford English Dictionaries, the Worlds’ most trusted dictionaries and the definitive reference for ‘World English’.

racist
Pronunciation:/ˈreɪsɪst/
noun
• a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
adjective
• having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another: we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at a newsagents

terrorist
Pronunciation:/ˈtɛrərɪst/
noun
• a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.

You are of course free to invent as many of your own definitions as you like, just as the uninformed FBI press officer and the random internet journalist did in the OP. I suppose it all depends on what ‘language’ you wish to subscribe.

No new information Shaf, just the definitive which you have choosen to ignore!

Regards

:lol:

shafique · Feb 28, 2011

Who is this 'uninformed FBI press officer' you refer to?

Did you just invent him, or do you have some new information (not in the articles)?

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Feb 28, 2011

Dillon wrote:There you go again! FBI representative, FBI press officer? Six of one and half a dozen of the other.

And my further comment for your next edit;

shafique · Feb 28, 2011

Hard to argue against arguments that involve imagined 'uninformed FBI press officers' - when the only information I've got is that the FBI has classified this as terrorism. (not a representative, news bunny, or media spin doctor, but the FBI)

Can I also invent sources for my arguments too?

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Feb 28, 2011

shafique wrote:Hard to argue against arguments that involve imagined 'uninformed FBI press officers' - when the only information I've got is that the FBI has classified this as terrorism. (not a representative, news bunny, or media spin doctor, but the FBI)

FBI representative, FBI press officer, FBI, news bunny, spin doctor, who care's what label you want to hang on the author? take our pick Shaf.

Can I also invent sources for my arguments too?

You invent a lot of content in your contributions so I don't see why you shouldn't invent an imaginary source as well, feell free!

:lol:

shafique · Feb 28, 2011

Cool. thanks.

I'll just stick to the Seattle Times factual account:

So far, the attempted bombing remains unsolved. But the presumption is that it was a race-based hate crime, and has been labeled an act of domestic terrorism by the FBI.

Should you find any new info - let me know. I'll have to think up some creative new imaginary sources for my future imagined arguments.

Cheers,
Shafique

STOP PRESS

We've tracked down the FBI source for the 'domestic terrorism' label.

"Suffice it to say it was of grave concern," Frank Harrill, special agent in the charge of the Spokane FBI office, told NBC News.

"You could describe it as an improvised destructive device ... or improvised explosive device."

The FBI has not established an official motive, but Harrill told NBC News "the timing and placement of the backpack (along the march route) is inescapable."
..
"At that point, it falls directly in the realm and sphere of domestic terrorism," Harrill told the Associated Press. "Clearly, there was some political or social agenda here.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41139894/ns ... nd_courts/

See - and I didn't have to invent a fictitious 'uniformed press officer' - just had to quote the Special Agent in charge and give his explanation.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora Bora · Feb 28, 2011

If you ask any black person in the United States, they will tell you that it was racially motivated, since the obvious target were black people. I guess the term "hate crime" doesn't exist anymore. So, to keep it in perspective, and using the word "terrorism" in the broadest sense (to terrorize), it would have been more appropriate to label it: racial terrorism, or racially motived terrorism, not domestic terrorism. Try selling the theory it was domestic violence to the black population today. Highly unlikely they are going to say "Yesa massa, eyes believes you massa. Whateva you says massa".

As for the FBI, I have absolutely no faith in what they say. When an organization protects an individual who was not a citizen, but a green card holder, who was a part of the first Trade Center attack (bomb in basement), and such individual can get a pass on threatening the life of an American citizen (proof of that threat made available as the threats were left on a telephone message recording) because he became an informant, two family members of his who are in the US illegally and living in his home, working off the books, paying no taxes, and he continues to send money, under an alias, out of the country on a monthly basis to Egypt to his brother, all known facts and much more detail made available to the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, and those agencies take no steps to protect that American citizen, but go out of their way to protect an enemy of the country. I guess those agencies feel that the life of one American citizen as threatened by an informant, that life would be "necessary collateral damage" justified by the fact that the information provided by that informant helped to convict those involved in the plot and execution of that act - including the Blind Sheikh and the informants cousin - The Mailman. The pretty much gave him a pass, met HIS demands, and went the extra mile to protect him, while failing to protect and American citizen.

Yeah, I have alot of faith in those agencies to say and do the right thing. :roll:

How would British Pakistanis feel if if a group of pakistanis were having a day out and a bomb was found in their midst, most likely placed their by a white Brit, and the government wanted to whitewash it by calling it "domestic violence?" Would you argue it was domestic or racial? If they saw it as racial, would you argue your point for them to see it as domestic, not racial?

Dillon · Feb 28, 2011

shafique wrote:Clearly, there was some political or social agenda here

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41139894/ns ... nd_courts/

So, clearly, you can continue in your conspiracy theory that it was a political act, I can continue in my belief that it was a racist (social) act and everybody else can continue with their own independant opinions.

Glad you found what you were looking for, an FBI representative said it!

:lol:

shafique · Feb 28, 2011

? My conspiracy theory?

FBI special agent Harrill says it is terrorism, AP, NBC, Seattle Times, Salon all report this fact and suddenly I'm the one with a conspiracy theory!!

Bora - to answer you questions simply: ANYONE planting a bomb with the intent to kill random innocent civilians and hence terrorise others in a general crowd, and especially if they have some political motivation - however vague - is clearly a terrorist.

As reported in the Seattle times - the FBI say it is a terrorist plot and a race-hate crime. You need to write to them if you think these are mutually exclusive labels. It is clear to me that they are not - terrorist bomb plot by white supremacists against people they hate, is still terrorism . Terrorists hardly ever target people they don't hate.

But let's not talk in general terms. FBI says this was a terrorist plot. I agree.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora Bora · Feb 28, 2011

Well I can't wait to read Beth's book: My Mother is a Terrorist!!! I mean, BM squeezed that poor child's injured knee to put fear in her to improve her grades!! One can only wonder what other acts of terrorism did BM use on her child? :shock:

DId I go off your discussion Shaf?? :drunken:

I think so since your "discussion" is so one-sided. You should consider inventing another personality on DF so that you can have discussions with someone else who will agree with you??? :thumbright:

shafique · Feb 28, 2011

LOL - I was almost sure you were just having fun in the past few posts. It appeared you were trying to convince readers that the FBI were wrong and you and Dillon were right.

FBI says this was a terrorist bomb plot. I can't see how I'm in the wrong for agreeing with the experts.

Interestingly, the comments on the MSNBC site I linked to above have these prescient and witty entries:

How quickly will the right say that this wasn't political?

Not long - obviously!

We need more stricter bomb control!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41139894/ns ... nd_courts/

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora Bora · Feb 28, 2011

And there you stand on the side of the law!!! You go Shaf!!!! Do you believe everything you read? I certainly don't and that includes what is posted on forums.

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