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Your trolling is transparent.

European anti-Semitism based on the Bible and then Hitler's views swamps any discrimination against Jews in the Muslim world - historically and since the 20th century.

Indeed, the 20th century clashes with Jews in the Arab world have more to do with immigration than the European anti-Semitism which is religiously motivated.

As I said eh, blogger spin does not change reality. The situation in Iran actually is a good example of how Jewish communities were treated much better under Muslim rule than under European Christian rule.

Cheers,

Shafique

The Nazi claims Jews do not experience oppression in Iran but flees from addressing the facts showing otherwise.

Why don't you compare anti-Jewish laws in 1930's Nazi Germany to Iran's laws today to prove that Nazi Germany's laws were far worse?

And what are Iran's ANTI-SEMITIC laws based on? What are Saudi Arabia's ANTI-SEMITIC laws based on?

The Koran and hadith?

Did the Nazis allow Jews religious freedom and places in parliament? The Iranian constitution recognises Christians, Zoroastrians and Jews as religious communities and enshrines religious freedom. QED.

Yes, the Islamic Republic reserves the most senior posts for Shia - very much like Lebanon where specific posts have to go to specific communities, and very much like the UK where the Queen cannot be Catholic (and head of Church of England).

However, these are all strawmen.

Anti-Semitism is a European disease and its roots are in the Bible. Your whataboutery argument is very weak.

Cheers,
Shafique

and very much like the UK where the Queen cannot be Catholic (and head of Church of England).

What a traitor you are to your homeland to throw Britain under the bus by comparing her to the anti-Semitic laws in Iran.

No, Jewish rights in Iran is nothing compared to Britain. Jews can and do play a role in mainstream politics in Britain. Jews are not prevented from holding high positions in government. Jews are not prevented from running for election. Jewish men can marry non-Jewish women. Jews can receive the inheritance of non-Jews. The law in blind for Jews and non-Jews. Jews do not receive half in compensation as non-Jews. Converts to Judaism are not arrested, imprisoned and / or executed by the British state.

Did the Nazis allow Jews religious freedom

As far as I know they did. Which laws obstructing Jewish religious freedom do you have in mind?

Did the Nazis forbid non-Jews from converting to Judaism by any chance?

Why don't you compare religious freedom of Jews under Nazi Germany to Iran?

We can see if Nazi Germany ever had apostasy laws as Iran does.

and places in parliament?

You mean, were Jews prevented from being elected to parliament in Nazi Germany as they are in Iran?

I'm not sure. Parliament only served a ceremonial role under Nazi Germany. I don't know if elections for parliament were allowed after the Enabling Act.

The Iranian constitution recognises Christians, Zoroastrians and Jews as religious communities and enshrines religious freedom.

So what equality and freedoms do Jews share with Muslims in Iran?

Yes, the Islamic Republic reserves the most senior posts for Shia

Jews cannot inherit property of Muslims.

A single Muslim family member will inherit all the property of a deceased family member if the other members of the family are Jews.

Like Nazi Germany, Jewish men may not marry Muslims.

Jews cannot be elected to Iran's parliament.

The token Jewish member of parliament holds no actual power.

Jews are prevented from holding political power in Iran.

Punishment and compensation in Iran's penal system differs for Jewish victims/offenders than for Muslim victims/offenders. Muslim victims/offenders are favored and Jews discriminated. Muslim offenders against Jewish victims receive lighter sentences than Jewish offenders and Jewish victims receive less justice than Muslim victims.

Blood money for Jews is half the blood money for Muslims.

However, these are all strawmen.

Who besides you would view the above anti-Semitic laws as "strawmen"?

Do you even know what a strawman is?

Anti-Semitism is a European disease and its roots are in the Bible.

Really? Which anti-Semitic laws are based on passages commanding discrimination against Jews in the Bible?

Is the verse commanding Jews to pay tribute with willing submission found in the Bible or Koran?

Fight against them who believe not in God, nor in the last day, and forbid not that which God and his apostle have forbidden, and profess not the true religion, of those unto whom the scriptures have been delivered, until they pay tribute by right of subjection, and they be reduced low.

A picture is worth a thousands words

shafique wrote:However, these are all strawmen.

Anti-Semitism is a European disease and its roots are in the Bible. Your whataboutery argument is very weak.

Long cuts and pastes won't change the facts eh. Jewish (and Christians and Zoroastrians) are indeed in the Iranian parliament - did the Nazis allow Jews into government? As in Lebanon, the seats are guaranteed.

Your fail is complete.

Cheers,
Shafique

Are Jews allowed to run for election in Iran?

Can Jews hold political power? If so, how do their powers compare to Muslim office holders?

Is prohibiting Jews from running for political office anti-Semitic?

Your fail is complete young one. Tell me how many Jews were in the Nazi parliament and whether the Nazis constitutionally allowed Jews complete freedom of religion?

Then address the elephant in the room:

Anti-Semitism is a European disease and its roots are in the Bible. Your whataboutery argument is very weak.

Cheers,

Shafique

I told you I'm not aware of Nazi laws that religiously discriminated against Jews.

Why are you asking me a question again after I told you the first time I didn't know?

Now, did the Nazis arrest and execute converts to Judaism like Iran does?

Is prohibiting Jews from running for political office anti-Semitic?

Anti-Semitism is a European disease and its roots are in the Bible. Your whataboutery argument is very weak.

Happy to compare discriminatory laws against Jews in the Bible and Koran.

Do you have a single Biblical law that discriminates against Jews?

And the elephant in the room?

(We'll take it as read that the Nazis did not allow complete religious freedom in the constitution like Iran does - and I think it is pretty bad taste to compare Iran's apostacy laws with Nazis who slaughtered 6 million Jews!)

Cheers,
Shafique

and I think it is pretty bad taste to compare Iran's apostacy laws with Nazis who slaughtered 6 million Jews!)

Nice strawman.

I never made the comparison. That's what a strawman is - making up an opponent's argument and then attacking it.

Your strawmen are perfect illustrations of your low intelligence and poor debating skills.

When you can't come up with an argument - such as whether Nazi Germany ever had laws from the 30's punishing conversion to Judaism on pain of death as Iran does today - you mention the Holocaust as if the Holocaust was a) law passed under the German government or b) what was previously being discussed.

But why is killing someone for a change in religion not similar to genocide?

Isn't executing someone for converting to Judaism swimming in the same waters of genocide, just the shallower end?

How many apostates to Judaism have been killed in Iran?

Your strawman is weak, young one.

So, let's address the main issue:

Anti-Semitism is a European disease and its roots are in the Bible. Your whataboutery argument is very weak.

Cheers,
Shafique

I'll let you answer your own question.

In the meantime, which verse in the Bible prescribes Jews to be reduced low?

Is prohibiting Jews from running for political office anti-Semitic?

event horizon wrote:I'll let you answer your own question.

Ok.

Throughout history, Jews have suffered the most persecution at the hands of Christians who slaughtered them in their hundreds of thousands - all over the notion that they were a nation that rejected Christ, and that the Bible says are responsible for the killing of Jesus.

Only in the 20th century have there been significant clashes between Muslims and Jews, and mostly in areas where European migration has been the issue - not over religion. In many ways, European anti-Semitism was imported to Arab lands in recent centuries.

The Holocaust was a European phenomenon, and by a Nazi party that had a constitutional Christian Church.

The whataboutery arguments by anti-Muslims which seek to link Islam to anti-Semitism just doesn't stand the empirical test of actual anti-Semitism by Muslims vs Christian anti-Semitic attacks, nor does it stand to theological scrutiny either. Ultimately though, the proof of the pudding is in the eating - Jews slaughtered by Christians far, far, far, far, far outnumber the instances of Jews persecuted by Muslims - either over recent times or over the centuries of European anti-Semitism.

Cheers,

Shafique

Ok.

I didn't seen an answer to your question about how many Jewish apostates have been executed by the Iranians.

Don't you remember you asked the question?

Or is your brain so fried that you thought your random response was answering your own question?

But seriously, is prohibiting Jews from running for political office anti-Semitic?

The whataboutery arguments by anti-Muslims which seek to link Islam to anti-Semitism just doesn't stand the empirical test of actual anti-Semitism by Muslims vs Christian anti-Semitic attacks, nor does it stand to theological scrutiny either. Ultimately though, the proof of the pudding is in the eating

Then why don't you compare discriminatory verses against Jews in the Bible to the Koran/hadith?

We don't have to rely on your version of history. The texts themselves can be compared.

We'll ignore your contradictory historical analysis. Did European Christians most persecute Jews or Christians in general?

If it is European Christians, then why? Obviously the answer then is not religion but culture.

event horizon wrote:We don't have to rely on your version of history

No need to get shirty. Let's just count the numbers of Jews slaughtered in Europe (say to the nearest 100,000) and compare it with the comparable killings of Jews in Muslim lands. We can do it century by century, and use historical texts for the numbers.

As for the numbers of Jewish apostates killed in Iran - I'd estimate the number to be zero. I am assuming you'll correct me if there is one or two, but I'll say that I estimate the numbers of Muslims converting to Judaism and then being killed to be exactly zero since the Shah was overthrown (and zero before that too).

I also am amused by your whataboutery argument that Christians also persecuted other minorities as well as Jews. That's a novel excuse for the slaughter of Jews - 'yes, Europeans did hate Jews - but they also hated other Christians who they thought were heretic too!'

Let's stick to the persecution of Jews and compare the European persecutions with those in Muslim lands. Focus, young one, focus.



Cheers,

Shafique

No need to get shirty. Let's just count the numbers of Jews slaughtered in Europe (say to the nearest 100,000) and compare it with the comparable killings of Jews in Muslim lands. We can do it century by century, and use historical texts for the numbers.

Why compare European Christians to non-European Muslims?

How 'bout European Christians to non-European Christians?

Or non-European Christians to non-European Muslims?

What will you conclude when you look at the death tolls from two Christian regions after seeing one far higher than the other?

You're the google historian.

I await your analysis.

I also am amused by your whataboutery argument that Christians also persecuted other minorities as well as Jews.

Where did I make that argument in my last post?

I understand reading comprehension is not your particular strong suit.

I am suggesting a comparison be made between the killings of Jews in Christian Europe with the killing of Jews in non-European Christian lands.

We'll see if there is a great discrepancy between the numbers you'll compile for the rest of us. Then we (you) can determine the reasons for why Jews in non-European Christian territories did not kill Jews to as large extent as in Europe.

Your theory holds something about the Bible (even though you can't point to a verse that says to persecute Jews). But, if your theory holds water, then massive Jew killing should be universal in Christian lands - from Ethiopia, to the Middle East and everywhere else.

'yes, Europeans did hate Jews - but they also hated other Christians who they thought were heretic too!'

Try reading. I won't bother with your straw-men.

Let's first establish that anti-Semitism is a European disease by comparing the killing of Jews by European Christians with the killing of Jews by other groups. Over the centuries the evidence shows that Anti-Semitism originated and reached its peak in European Christendom.

When we look at the numbers and incidents of non-European attacks on Jews, we can see the relative number of attacks, numbers killed etc.

Simple. This will show us which group is more anti-Semitic - Europeans or all other groups combined.

Once we see this fact, we can examine why the European Christians used the Bible to justify their slaughter of Jews, and whether other groups used religious reasons for their lesser persecutions or not.

Cheers,
Shafique

PS - you asked

event horizon wrote: Did European Christians most persecute Jews or Christians in general?

This is a weak whataboutery argument/question - whether Christians persecuted other 'heretical' Christians like they persecuted Jews does not change the persecution of Jews. Focus, young man, focus.

This is a weak whataboutery argument/question

No, it's simply a failure in reading comprehension on your part. My next sentence clarified any ambiguity in that sentence anyone could have.

So we'll wait for the google historian to provide us with his data.

In the meantime, you can answer the simple question whether Iran's laws discriminating against Jews are Anti-Semitic - many of them are actually similar to laws in Nazi Germany against Jews.

shafique wrote:Let's first establish that anti-Semitism is a European disease by comparing the killing of Jews by European Christians with the killing of Jews by other groups. Over the centuries the evidence shows that Anti-Semitism originated and reached its peak in European Christendom.

When we look at the numbers and incidents of non-European attacks on Jews, we can see the relative number of attacks, numbers killed etc.

Do you disagree that anti-Semitism is European disease/phenomenon - and that the historical numbers of Jews killed and persecuted at the hands of Christians prove this?

If we agree on this historical fact, then we can move on to see the relatively modern and relatively fewer incidents of anti-Jewish discrimination in Muslim countries.

Cheers,

Shafique