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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/se ... itish-army

Apparently there are 100s of other Iraqi detainees who experienced the same at the hands of the UK military.
Very sad story.

The death of Baha Mousa, an innocent Iraqi citizen, "cast a dark shadow" over the British army's reputation, its head has said.

Statement by General Sir Peter Wall:

His comments came as an inquiry into the death of Mousa found that British soldiers inflicted "violent and cowardly" assaults on Iraqi civilians, subjecting them to "gratuitous" kickings and beating. In a devastating indictment of military culture, the retired appeal court judge Sir William Gage ruled that there was widespread ignorance of what was permitted in handling prisoners of war.

[retired appeal count judge Sir William] Gage found that even senior commanders were ignorant of a ban, imposed in 1972, on the use of five techniques; these included hooding, stress positions and sleep deprivation.

WTH??? Senior commanders were ignorance of a 1972 ban and what was permitted in handling prisoners of war?? Might explain why they let the US take the lead.

Mousa, 26, a hotel worker in Basra where the British army was stationed, died after spending 36 hours in detention in the custody of soldiers from the 1st Battalion Queen's Lancashire Regiment (1QLR). He was found to have suffered 93 external injuries.

Yeah, yeah, let me help you out: Yes, the Americans have been accused of doing the same. Difference is most of the senior commanders were not aware of it going on, were aware of what could and could not be done, and the US military involved certainly knew it was wrong. "I was ignorant and didn't know we couldn't do that" is a poor excuse.

The story was heading the news on the BBC this hour - and included an interview with Baha's father.

The report has many shocking findings - and I am encouraged by the universal reaction to it from the PM down. Liam Fox is disputing the finding that soldiers shouldn't be allowed to shout during interrogations, but apart from that the Government and Army are holding their hands up and are not making excuses.

General Wall apologised unreservedly for the actions.

"The Army has apologised unreservedly to Baha Mousa's family and to the surviving victims of this shocking episode.
"And I would like to take this opportunity to repeat that apology today."
.."Both at home and on operations the Army must act within the law.

I trust that the lessons will be learnt.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The story was heading the news on the BBC this hour - and included an interview with Baha's father.

The report has many shocking findings - and I am encouraged by the universal reaction to it from the PM down. Liam Fox is disputing the finding that soldiers shouldn't be allowed to shout during interrogations, but apart from that the Government and Army are holding their hands up and are not making excuses.

General Wall apologised unreservedly for the actions.

"The Army has apologised unreservedly to Baha Mousa's family and to the surviving victims of this shocking episode.
"And I would like to take this opportunity to repeat that apology today."
.."Both at home and on operations the Army must act within the law.

I trust that the lessons will be learnt.

Cheers,
Shafique

My, my. So little to say about something so serious. (Why don't you pretend it is about Americans. I'm sure you would find alot to say about it then. Especially the part about being ignorant.)

I'm sure that the family will sleep better now that they got the apology.

I find little to criticise in the Government and Army reaction to the long comprehensive report. They have held their hands up to the crimes and have apologised.

What would you like me to criticise?

If they had tried to avoid the issue, make excuses or blame the victims - you bet I'd be vocal about these tactics. They didn't shirk from admitting the gravity of the crimes or that they weren't justified or excusable.

This reaction can serve as a nice comparison for future and past comparable events of abuse by Military Occupation forces - but for now, credit where credit is due, Government and Army handled this well in my view.

Let me know if you think this post is too short as well.

Cheers,
Shafique

Atleast they admited it hopefully there will be compensation, now lets see if any of the gitmo "unlawful combantants" detainees get anything close to that,

shafique wrote:I find little to criticise in the Government and Army reaction to the long comprehensive report. They have held their hands up to the crimes and have apologised.

What would you like me to criticise?

If they had tried to avoid the issue, make excuses or blame the victims - you bet I'd be vocal about these tactics. They didn't shirk from admitting the gravity of the crimes or that they weren't justified or excusable.

This reaction can serve as a nice comparison for future and past comparable events of abuse by Military Occupation forces - but for now, credit where credit is due, Government and Army handled this well in my view.

Let me know if you think this post is too short as well.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ahhhh, the Englishman praises the UK for the very thing he condemned the US for.

-- Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:24 am --

desertdudeshj wrote:Atleast they admited it hopefully there will be compensation, now lets see if any of the gitmo "unlawful combantants" detainees get anything close to that,

Admitted it only because it was proven during a very long investigation and using the excuse that the senior military was ignorant. Compensation??? Highly unlikely, especially if more cases come to light in the UK.

As for the detainees, why don't you send in a reimbursement application to the US government???

So, you were happy with the length this time. You could have tried reading it though - you seem to think that I criticised the US for apologising and admitting to their wrong. I'll just add that to the list of imagined posts I'm supposed to have made.

DDS - the UK HAS already paid compensation to 16 British ex-gitmo detainees (and paid their legal fees too). Bora - how much and to whom have the US paid compensation to?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:So, you were happy with the length this time. You could have tried reading it though - you seem to think that I criticised the US for apologising and admitting to their wrong. I'll just add that to the list of imagined posts I'm supposed to have made.

DDS - the UK HAS already paid compensation to 16 British ex-gitmo detainees (and paid their legal fees too). Bora - how much and to whom have the US paid compensation to?

Cheers,
Shafique

"Seem to think"? You are the biggest negative critic of the US - always have been. I don't think that, I know it from your post history. Or is critic the wrong word - should I say "expert"???

Why don't you answer your own question Shaf, seeing as how you're the expert.

I am big critic of anyone who does something wrong - but YOU said I :

praises the UK for the very thing he condemned the US for.

This seems to be just (another) figment of your imagination, certainly not something that can be concluded from my posts criticising the US.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I am big critic of anyone who does something wrong - but YOU said I :

praises the UK for the very thing he condemned the US for.

This seems to be just (another) figment of your imagination, certainly not something that can be concluded from my posts criticising the US.

Cheers,
Shafique

Finally, an admission!!!!

Shaf, it must be frustrating dealing with so many people who have wild imaginations. while you seem to think (or is it "know"?) the reality of all things.

LOL - I guess you have to take your imagined wins where you can

I refer you to my posts critical of the US to make the point that none of them relate to the praise of the UK government actions here, and you take this as an admission that you're right!

Perhaps you imagined that I agreed to your imagined view of my posts. That's SOME imagination!

Cheers,
Shafique

There have been many serving servicemen speaking in favour of the Regiment involved. I think people forget that we are in a war situation. Do you, for once instance, think that the enemy treat our captured soldiers with respect?
What about the Military Policeman who were murdered after being surrounded by a howling mob?
Do me a favour. There is no such thing as being polite in battle.

shafique wrote:LOL - I guess you have to take your imagined wins where you can

I refer you to my posts critical of the US to make the point that none of them relate to the praise of the UK government actions here, and you take this as an admission that you're right!

Perhaps you imagined that I agreed to your imagined view of my posts. That's SOME imagination!

Cheers,
Shafique

And I refer you to your multiple PAST posts, where I referred to your "history", but I guess you edited that out in your reading. Wouldn't it make it easier for you to just admit that you're just another Pakistani who hates of America? No shame in that Shaf.

-- Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:26 pm --

Bethsmum wrote:There have been many serving servicemen speaking in favour of the Regiment involved. I think people forget that we are in a war situation. Do you, for once instance, think that the enemy treat our captured soldiers with respect?
What about the Military Policeman who were murdered after being surrounded by a howling mob?
Do me a favour. There is no such thing as being polite in battle.

My point to Shaf was that he went on to smear American servicemen when it was revealed they had committed the same atrocities in Iraq. He wasn't short on words, but unable to use the same words on his countrymen. Captured soldiers experience the same torture if not worse. Will the US and UK prosecute those who tortured soldiers or civilians working for their governments?? Hell no.

War BM? What war? WWI, WWII, Korean War - those were wars. Iraq isn't a war, nor is Afghanistan - it was an invasion. And for what? It's a matter of countries asking the US or UK to fight their own internal war. The US and UK weren't asked by anyone to go into Iraq. They went there under the deception of one individual - banana Cheney who manipulated Bush into invading Iraq, and the US convinced other countries to join in.

For anyone to think that those countries will not revert to what they were before the "aid, is delusional. Fact is the US and UK are no longer nations of power, but tools for other countries to use who can't do what the US and UK can do.

Countries don't go to the "aid" of other countries unless they are "invited" by the government, which invitations the US and UK are quick to accept, rather than miss a party or better yet, an "opportunity". Those "opportunities" were the very reasons that terrorism is alive and well living in both countries.

Bora Bora wrote:

shafique wrote:I refer you to my posts critical of the US to make the point that none of them relate to the praise of the UK government actions here, and you take this as an admission that you're right!

Perhaps you imagined that I agreed to your imagined view of my posts. That's SOME imagination!

And I refer you to your multiple PAST posts, where I referred to your "history", but I guess you edited that out in your reading. Wouldn't it make it easier for you to just admit that you're just another Pakistani who hates of America? No shame in that Shaf.

Well, let me return the favour and ask you to provide the evidence to your latest accusation. You want me to admit to being a national of Pakistan.... what a strange request!

Which of my multiple past posts led you to imagine that I condemned the US for what I praised the UK in my posts above?

Bora - you seem to be labouring under the misconception that I have/am in some way letting off the UK soldiers that committed the crimes. I can't see how my praising the Government and Army for their actions led you to this conclusion.

You appear to be wanting to pick a fight over something I haven't actually written. Are you confusing me with someone you believe to be Pakistani.. or is there some other reason you're knickers are in a twist because I praised the UK authorities for accepting the crimes and apologising?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:

shafique wrote:I refer you to my posts critical of the US to make the point that none of them relate to the praise of the UK government actions here, and you take this as an admission that you're right!

Perhaps you imagined that I agreed to your imagined view of my posts. That's SOME imagination!

And I refer you to your multiple PAST posts, where I referred to your "history", but I guess you edited that out in your reading. Wouldn't it make it easier for you to just admit that you're just another Pakistani who hates of America? No shame in that Shaf.

Well, let me return the favour and ask you to provide the evidence to your latest accusation. You want me to admit to being a national of Pakistan.... what a strange request!

Which of my multiple past posts led you to imagine that I condemned the US for what I praised the UK in my posts above?

Bora - you seem to be labouring under the misconception that I have/am in some way letting off the UK soldiers that committed the crimes. I can't see how my praising the Government and Army for their actions led you to this conclusion.

You appear to be wanting to pick a fight over something I haven't actually written. Are you confusing me with someone you believe to be Pakistani.. or is there some other reason you're knickers are in a twist because I praised the UK authorities for accepting the crimes and apologising?

Cheers,
Shafique

Do you really think I'm going to take the time to go through all your dribble, when you and I know better? You have nothing but contempt towards the US. Praise the government, the Army, and remain quite on the crime and the perpetrators, as opposed to you condemning the US government, the military, soldiers and the crimes when it went public. It appears that the same actions from two different countries warrant different reactions from you.

Where did I say you were a Pakistani national???? Are you now saying you are not a Pakistani who happens to be British??

I guess you would be a Pakistani national if you have the Pakistan passport, but I don't know that you do. I do believe the UK allows nationals to hold more than one passport. It may very well be true that you are also a holder of the Mauritis passport, which would make you a British Pakistani Mauritian????

You're rambling Bora.

I suggest you dig out an atlas or have a look at Google Earth - then have a think about what relevance your fantasies about my nationality, heritage, passport etc have to do with my comments praising the UK goverment and Army over their handling of the report just published.

You're obviously confusing me with someone who has some links to Pakistan. Imagining that I wrote something that led you to this fantasy is amusing and dis-quietening at the same time.

Deep breaths, Bora, and come back to the subject at hand. You started this thread after all.

Why are you getting upset that I am praising the UK government and army for their reaction? Do you want me to be critical of them? What for?

Cheers,
Shafique

War BM? What war? WWI, WWII, Korean War - those were wars. Iraq isn't a war, nor is Afghanistan - it was an invasion. And for what? It's a matter of countries asking the US or UK to fight their own internal war. The US and UK weren't asked by anyone to go into Iraq. They went there under the deception of one individual - banana Cheney who manipulated Bush into invading Iraq, and the US convinced other countries to join in.

I was refering to the soldiers Bora. They most definately think they are at war. They are not doing tours of Afghanistan or Iraq because they fancy a trip to the desert. They are being sent to a war zone and act accordingly. War is not pretty.

The soldiers, because they love and believe in their country, are made to believe it's a war, when in fact it's not.