Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

Crazy Frank Gaffney and his Islamophobic views:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSPjhZWoamQ&NR=1

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0U_WQyF ... _embedded#!

Shaf, what is it you want to accomplish on DF with all the time you spend on pro-Islam, anti-Islam issues? Whatever it is that you are promoting or whatever your cause is, get out there and go and do something that will have an impact on your "cause" rather than constantly posting statements from nutters on all sides!!!! It really has no effect here and clearly not too many people are interested in it, or have grown tired, of it.

Bora why don't you put your subjects of concern here? You know this is an open and free forum for everyone to debate anythink they like...

I would also say the same about people like EH, shafs threads just balance out the stuff posted by him. We have banned people like gadfly and muslim bangladeshi for posting anti semtic stuff. I myself PM'd AG and posted in the lounge about Gadfly requesting his departure.

This is after all is Dubai forums and anti islamic stuff like EH posts on a regular basis can have it easily blocked here, true there is traffic from outside UAE ( god knows how many use VPN's to cover their tracks from UAE here ) but would turn into a ghost town if input from members staying here was not there.

Personally I find it unfair to people like gadfly/indian summer and co to ban them and let people like EH keep posting unchecked. So until people don't have a problem with stuff by EH no one should point a finger at posts like this either.

Just sayin'

Bora Bora wrote:Shaf, what is it you want to accomplish on DF with all the time you spend on pro-Islam, anti-Islam issues? Whatever it is that you are promoting or whatever your cause is, get out there and go and do something that will have an impact on your "cause" rather than constantly posting statements from nutters on all sides!!!! It really has no effect here and clearly not too many people are interested in it, or have grown tired, of it.

This is the point I've reached.

Bora Bora wrote:Shaf, what is it you want to accomplish on DF with all the time you spend on pro-Islam, anti-Islam issues? Whatever it is that you are promoting or whatever your cause is, get out there and go and do something that will have an impact on your "cause" rather than constantly posting statements from nutters on all sides!!!! It really has no effect here and clearly not too many people are interested in it, or have grown tired, of it.

This is indeed a very good question and one that deserves careful consideration - and perhaps may lead to a change in behaviour.

You ask what I want to accomplish.

Well, in the politics forum I tend to focus on one main issue - the rise of Islamophobia in general, and specifically the blaming of Muslims/Islam in general for politically motivated acts of violence, terrorism - and the linked misinformation campaign by Israel and her supporters to confuse the issue over the military occupation of Palestine with a religious struggle.

The dehumanization campaign against the Palestinians in particular and muslims in general (they don't value life, sacrifice their kids, are somehow less human etc) is a cynical campaign which is exactly like that carried out against the Jews by fascists in Europe. I have taken to heart the message that it is the duty of good people to speak out against injustice and not to tire of this.

I therefore do try and limit my threads to NEW information that relates to injustices. The threads about the ills in Israel are also related to this - as they point to the growing racism and intolerance within Israeli society and this directly affects those who are living under occupation as well as Arab Israelis.

Also, there is the drip-drip Islamophobic spin that we see demonstrated by Gaffney and other nutters such as Bob Spencer, Pam Geller etc. They focus on the minority and extrapolate to the majority.

To counter this, the facts and statistics about real crime rates and real terrorism rates are needed. Again, a rich source of information there - and one I do bring up when new info comes up, or when another misleading post/thread surfaces.

Where the Islamophobia takes the form of lies and spin (eg Hamas officially denies the Holocaust, and Memri special etc) - then I present evidence of what is actually on the record to contrast.

I'm constantly surprised at the capacity of Islamophobes/racists to come out with out-and-out lies. Take a recent example that is easily verified and can be taken as symptomatic - in the BNP thread look at the way I was called a liar for explaining the meaning of the word 'Paki' - and how at least two people tried to mislead everyone over this. Joe's summary of this specific issue cuts through the crap.

All that said - now that some selected posters are on the foe list, the knee-jerk reaction to answer every Islamophobic post is severely curbed.

Finally, guys like Gaffney, Spencer and Geller also do provide a source of humour - I mean their hatred and conspiracy theories ('stealth Jihad', 'Obama is a Muslim', 'Muslims are infiltrating the Republican party' etc etc) are funny - and sunlight is a great disinfectant.


However, all that said, I fully understand the sentiment your post is expressing and fully understand kanelli's agreement above. It proves the old adage - if you wrestle with mud dwelling creatures - you soon both get covered in mud. (to put it diplomatically).

I'm trying to avoid the mudslinging - where I trip up, try and be patient and by all means point it out.

Cheers,
Shafique

I think you should start a blog about it where you can post the articles and your critiques and comments. That would be a great resource for people who are also concerned with the increase in Islamophobia.

p.s. I am interested and do like reading a lot of what you write. It is just when the entire politics and religion section is bombarded with pro and anti material from eh and you.... drives me crazy

K - it also frustrates me, and I find myself kicking myself when I'm in the middle of a tit-for-tat exchange with say herve or BM (of late). Then the 'debating' side of me takes over - and its not a question of writing for enlightenment, but rather one of exposing the flaws in the other's arguments. This is indeed tiresome for those not following (or interested) in the exchange - and what I'm referring to as 'wrestling'.

I intend to do a lot less and will try and treat the obvious trolling posts as if they were on my foe list.

Indeed, I do think that the anti-Islam brigade has run out of steam and are now just recycling old material and old tactics. There's pretty much no new evidence I need to present to their tactics anymore - so I'll let themselves punch themselves out (and step in to correct the likes of Berrin or Sym when they take the bait).

Indeed, I've also been reducing the posts about news coming out of Israel (eg Peru has become the latest country to recognise Palestine) and just trying to pick out the major/significant news - such as the leaks.

Anyway, it will take time for this new approach to make itself clear - but please, help me by pointing out where posts/motives etc seem to be going against this stated goal.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: You ask what I want to accomplish.
Well, in the politics forum I tend to focus on one main issue - the rise of Islamophobia in general, and specifically the blaming of Muslims/Islam in general for politically motivated acts of violence, terrorism - and the linked misinformation campaign by Israel and her supporters to confuse the issue over the military occupation of Palestine with a religious struggle.

The dehumanization campaign against the Palestinians in particular and muslims in general (they don't value life, sacrifice their kids, are somehow less human etc) is a cynical campaign which is exactly like that carried out against the Jews by fascists in Europe. I have taken to heart the message that it is the duty of good people to speak out against injustice and not to tire of this.

Whatever you try to accomplish, it does not work, on your own admission islamophobia is on the rise.
So don t waste your time, your cause is lost, and I doubt many read the full lenght of your posts so....Go to the beach....you ll feel better

^It sounds very much like you're asking me to surrender N'est-ce pas?


Sorry, the English part of me couldn't resist - just kidding. But you're right Islamophobic hype is increasing, but I'd say that whilst some do insist on believing the hype, the more people look into the substance behind the hype, the more they are discovering the truth.

By the same token, the number of converts to Islam amongst Europeans is also rising - which also explains why the Islamphobes are getting more and more desperate.

Just my view, of course.

Cheers,
Shafique

Instead of creating this debate did you ever ask yourself why islamophobia is on the rise, if there is such, is it because of what muslims do , or because what they don't do.

Islamophobic hype is on the rise because the old arguments aren't working any more.

More and more people are speaking out against people like Gaffney - just look at the first YouTube clip, he's being ridiculed by a presenter on Russian TV! More people are joining Islam.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, there has been a need to present an 'enemy' as an excuse for state interference overseas. I recommend a BBC documentary called 'Power of Nightmares' - that explains the background to this in a lot more detail.

I understand it must be really frustrating when your beliefs don't match evidence - I guess that is why Islamophobes rely on SHOUTING and insults rather than reasoned debate and evidence.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: I understand it must be really frustrating when your beliefs don't match evidence - I guess that is why Islamophobes rely on SHOUTING and insults rather than reasoned debate and evidence.

Cheers,
Shafique

And why would that be frustrating, it should not be if islamothing is on the rise.
So the one that is frustrated is more likely to be you.

Then you say the islamothing is on the rise because the word needs an excuse, well you got me my laugh of the day.

All I can say is that I'm not at all frustrated - the calm exposition of what Islam actually teaches, what the reality of statistical evidence is, and which side is being ridiculed because of wild accusations (although to be fair, we do have our Gaffney's too - Anjum Chowdhury etc) etc- are all signs that we are making progress.

You see, I can and do join in and ridicule the extremist Muslim preachers and crazy conspiracy nuts - so this does not frustrate me at all. Indeed, their extremist minority views helps the majority Muslim view get across - as it creates an interest in exploring what the truth is among many curious people.

Those who are desperate to believe that Gaffney's fantasies are true, are no different from other extremists in other communities who believe the world is flat, it is ok to slaughter civilians, kidnap virgins etc.

Don't confuse the increased Islamophobic hype - more shouting does not necessarily mean more people are believing the hype. It does mean more are hearing it, and this (perversely) is what I believe is behind the increase in numbers of people joining Islam. More peoples' interests in Islam are being activated than before, I would say.

I would argue that the people prejudiced against foreigners haven't really increased in numbers - and the Islamophobes are just co-opting these bigots to their cause.

Cheers,
Shafique