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I look forward to reading the discussion as it develops - should prove interesting.

eh, I note you didn't comment on what Rob posted about Cook's tactics in his book about Jihad above.

I also note you haven't said whether you agree that Islam does not condone terrorism as the fatwa in question clearly states.

Carry on guys.

Cheers,
Shafique

Rob only provided one page of the critical review of Cook's book. I'll need to read more than one page. Not everyone can read a few sentences and pontificate on string theory, dontya know?

Fair point, let us know what your view is after you've read more than the one page which states Cook is up to the old trick of selective quoting.

How about the question about the fatwa against terrorism (rather than the discussion about jihad) - do you agree with the Fatwa that says Islam teaches that it is a sin to commit acts of terrorism?

Cheers,
Shafique

I forgot to say earlier - see the thread 'Islam and Terrorism' in the religion forum (bumped earlier today) for an article with Quranic and Hadith quotes explaining what Islam's stance on terrorism is.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:
Well, if it's on Fox news, then it must not be trusted. Everyone knows that the BBC is the most trusted name in news.

Love your irony, but seriously.

Are these confessions valid from your perspective?

The first video you linked to does bring up some excellent points, to say the least.

The Koran creates quite a loophole for itself by guaranteeing that Muslim 'holy' warriors who die whilst killing disbelievers are granted *immediate* entry into Paradise:

Koran 9:111 - God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon God in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than God? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph.

Normally, for Muslims who have not died murdering disbelievers, their souls are rejoined with their corpse in what is known as the torture of the grave. Muslims, if they sinned, will be punished until the day of judgment, at which time, these Muslims will go through a period of purgatory where they'll be tortured some more and cleansed in the fires of hell (in case you're wondering, disbelievers will also be sent to hell and tortured....but for all times).

A Muslim martyr, such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, however, does not go through any of the above. They journey straight to Paradise to enjoy the virgins and other sensual/childish pleasures the Koran guarantees for them.

But herein lies the contradiction/loophole. The Koran says that martyrs will be sent to Paradise without going through any type of purgatory. Does that mean Muslim martyrs led completely sinless lives as Muslims before dieing whilst killing disbelievers? Of course not! So, how can a martyr escape the torture of the grave and the fires of hell that await him in the next life without being completely sinless?

This must mean the sins of a Muslim, all of them, are completely erased when the Muslim pulls the detonation cord on a bus full of apostates or Jews or what have you.

So, the Koran says suicide is bad. It's a sin, right? But the sins of a Muslim martyr will be forgiven - completely erased clean, as long as he dies fighting for Allah. So, that means the Koran creates quite a nifty loophole for our martyrdom seekers. They can strap explosives to themselves and walk into a night club or Shia mosque and need not worry about if they will be punished for their act of suicide - it will all be forgiven.

This view is also supported from the sayings and biographies of Muhammad. One example that I can cite (and I use it because shafique claims that Baruch Goldstein was a suicide 'bomber') is about a Muslim who learns about the rewards that are offered to Muslim martyrs at the battle of Badr.

The recent convert, after hearing that martyrs will immediately be sent to Paradise and enjoy the company of luscious virgins, strips off his armor and storms the enemy lines, taking out a few Pagans until he is finally killed. So, we see that past Islamic precedent does support the actions of modern day Islamic suicide bombers. After all, if Baruch Goldstein's action was suicidal, then this man's action must be as well.

I think you analyzed that pretty well EH.

Just read about that Baruch Goldstein terrorist, and his actions show the resemblance of an islamic martyr, shooting 29 people, wounding 150 until he was beaten to death by the crowd.
No bombs involved, obviously an act of suicide if you consider his surroundings, the location and the absence of him fleeing the place in order to survive.

So from my perspective, clearly a martyr-like terrorist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McpEqskn ... re=channel

The reason this fatwa (and previous ones) were needed is because there are some Muslims who do indeed believe and act like Baruch Goldstein and his supporters _- I..e. It is meritorious to kill civilians and martyr yourself as long as you do it in the name of religion.

Jews and Muslims therefore have to decide whether they agree with this interpretation of the Bible (in Goldstein's case) or the Quran(in al qaeada's case) or whether the points made in this fatwa and other rulings (by jews and muslims) are correct.

Those arguing that religion does not condone terrorism view those justifying acts of terrorism (whether suicide bombings, Goldstein's calculated massacre or even the Biblical slaughter of civilians and enslavement and rape of virgins by Israelites) as religous fanatics.

This particular fatwa clearly counters the supposed loophole eh describes - but I guess as with other religius fanatics the clear facts in the fatwa will be ignored and the distorted spin will be just repeated as fact. I did ask eh whether he agreed with the fatwa - and from the eloquent reply above it appears the answer is no. Which puts him in the same company as Al Qaeda and those who venerate Goldstein.



Cheers
Shafique

The reason this fatwa (and previous ones) were needed is because there are some Muslims who do indeed believe and act like Baruch Goldstein and his supporters _- I..e. It is meritorious to kill civilians and martyr yourself as long as you do it in the name of religion.

Not aware of any previous fatwa that universally condemned terrorism. I think this is the first without the usual loopholes.

or the Quran(in al qaeada's case) or whether the points made in this fatwa and other rulings (by jews and muslims) are correct.

The Koran is crystal clear - the sins of those who die fighting for Allah, by dieing whilst murdering disbelievers, are immediately washed away.

Do you disagree with my example of the Muslim soldier at the battle of Badr? Was his daring charge, in which he stripped off his armor and charged into the Pagan lines by himself, not an act of suicide?

This particular fatwa clearly counters the supposed loophole eh describes

Ok - let's see how the cleric explains to Muslims that passages in the Koran guaranteeing martyrdom for those who fight and die killing disbelievers should not be interpreted literally.

Which puts him in the same company as Al Qaeda and those who venerate Goldstein.

It's not my fault - the Koran is too clear for me to disagree with what its contents say. I have to side with the Koran that the Koran justifies Islamic suicide terrorism.

Eh - did yiu read the previous fatwas referred to in the article in the first post?

Cheers
Shafique