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Next to gender apartheid, a physical sign of religious apartheid. Keep in mind these are government policies.



Ahmadis have to take the Jeddah exit...they are not allowed to participate with the hajj (really!)

What do the people who can go straight to makkah think about this policy in the heartland of Islam?

You're not happy with the threads about Israeli apartheid are you FD?

I totally agree, that in Mecca only Muslims are allowed and therefore it is a form of separation or apartheid. It is indeed based on the simple criterion of religion.

However, you've FAILED in the fact that women and men mix freely in Mecca, so hardly a double apartheid there! Nice try though.

The problem with Israeli Apartheid policies though is more pernicious - with white Jews discriminating against non-White Jews and the dehumanisation of non-Jewish Palestinians. However, the most virulent racists are thankfully in the minority.

It will be interesting to see whether you even acknowledge the apartheid policies of some Israelis.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:You're not happy with the threads about Israeli apartheid are you FD?

I totally agree, that in Mecca only Muslims are allowed and therefore it is a form of separation or apartheid. It is indeed based on the simple criterion of religion.

However, you've FAILED in the fact that women and men mix freely in Mecca, so hardly a double apartheid there! Nice try though.

The problem with Israeli Apartheid policies though is more pernicious - with white Jews discriminating against non-White Jews and the dehumanisation of non-Jewish Palestinians. However, the most virulent racists are thankfully in the minority.

It will be interesting to see whether you even acknowledge the apartheid policies of some Israelis.

Cheers,
Shafique

Errr...you belong to the forced exit people. I asked for people who are allowed to go straight.

Peace.

LOL - nice one FD.

I've actually gone for Umrah - as a Muslim it was quite an inspiring visit. The brotherhood there (and sisterhood, I should add) is a marked contrast to the examples of racist hate in the Zionist thread that caused you to start this thread.

Attack isn't always the best form of defence FD - especially when the whiff is of desperation!

Cheers,
Shafique

Ahmadi´s are banned from Mecca, unless the Saudi government of course doesn´t know whether one is Ahmadi, because one is hiding his/her true faith.

sniff sniff, what's that I smell? The sign clearly says 'Muslims only' - sorry FD, but that excludes you.

I've been, I'm a Muslim - so no problems there. As I said, contrast that with the racist attitudes we see in Israel today among the ultra religious minority - shameful, isn't it?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The sign clearly says 'Muslims only' - sorry FD, but that excludes you.

I call apartheid!

I agree you think it is apartheid. We'll chalk that up to another point we agree to disagree over!

But hey, all you have to do is say 'There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his Prophet' and you're in!

Now, how about a comment about those real racists over in Israel? What's that.. no comment... ?

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, As much as I know, Ahmadis are considered as Murtids, so they are out of muslims and they are not allowed in Mecca!

-- Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:55 pm --

:lol:

all you have to do is say 'There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his Prophet' and you're in!

Yeah! RRIIIGHHHTT!!!

Visa requirements in Saudi somewhere in the decade (check last point):



Must have been a slip of the tongue.

I lose track of who considers whom non-Muslims amongst the sects. Eg some sunnis consider Shia to be non-Muslim (Sepahi Sahaba in Pakistan), the Brevelis are considered idol worshippers by some and Ishmaeli Shia are singled out by other sects. In fact, Wahabbis have a list of 'idol worshippers' amongst the Muslim sects - but allow them all in to Mecca.

When I went to Mecca - the brotherhood was tangible and everyone was quite moved at being at the spiritual home of Islam. No one asked me what sect of Islam I was - not even whether I was Sunni or Shia (I'm a Hannafite Sunni, if you ask).

But it is fascinating how FD is equating the injunction of only Muslims being allowed in Mecca with racism - especially as it is only a current topic because of the instances of Zionist Apartheid policies in Israel - in 1930 and current day racist attitudes of some ultra-religious Jews.

Cheers,
Shafique

FD - Nice one, from which web site did you get that screen shot from? (And from when 'in the past decade' is it from?)

sniff sniff



Cheers,
Shafique

Officialy there is no shia population in saudi. Sunni apartheid against the shia! No high government jobs for the shia in saudi...

So FD, where did you get that screenshot from? I presume it is not an official policy of the Saudis today and perhaps was on a website for a brief time some years ago before being amended?

I smell something fishy FD..

Cheers,
Shafique

PS - you're right about Wahabbi opposition to Shia (even declaring them non-Muslim in some cases):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi'a_Isla ... udi_Arabia

Yet, they are still allowed in Mecca - as I said, pretty much all sects have other sects that consider them non-muslim (there are some that consider Wahabbis non-Muslim too!)

Cheers,
Shafique

It is from 2004. Like I said must have been a slip of the tonque.

Then again...a strict interpretation of Islam, like the Wahhabi Saudi have, mean ethnic cleaning of jews in saudi.

Anyways, congrats with your post not mentioning Israel or Zionists in a thread about apartheid in Saudi. It took a while, but...

Yes, but from which website did you get the screen shot from?

Sorry, I must have slipped up by not asking your comment on the real racists over in Israel - thanks for the reminder.

Cheers,
Shafique

It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim. - Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366

I wonder how this apartheid business started ???

-- Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:26 am --

Flying Dutchman wrote:Ahmadi´s are banned from Mecca, unless the Saudi government of course doesn´t know whether one is Ahmadi, because one is hiding his/her true faith.

Deception is war, FD.

Even pseudo Muslims practice what Muhammad preached.

Hmm - surely the fanbois aren't going to try and pin segregation of Jews and pogroms on Muslims?

That I'd like to see!

But fascinating that rather than address the real racism as evidenced in the thread on Zionist Apartheid policies they amuse themselves with these strawmen.

But hey, isn't it cute how the mutual appreciation society works.

Cheers,
Shafique

It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim. - Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366

So, how did you manage to fool the Saudis into allowing you to travel to Mecca ?

I guess it doesn't say on your passport that you are a non-Muslim ?

Does your passport say 'redneck loon' on it?

C'mon eh, you really must try harder - your insults are missing my a country mile lately. What's the matter - still in mourning over Israel's PR disaster?

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, apartheid is a serious issue.

I condemn real apartheid where members of a certain religion were barred by members of another religion from worshiping at their former places of worship - former meaning that they were physically taken over by the members of the other religion.

Don't you?

Or do your condemnations and bleeding-liberal heart stop short at anything criticizing the discriminatory practices described in the Koran?

Funny how you sound like a real 'kumbaya-why-can't-we-all-just-get-along' liberal when we are talking about Israel or anything else, just so long as anything doesn't come within a mile of critically speaking out against the intolerant passages in the Koran or the sayings and practices of the prophet.

Then the real bigoted views of Muslims are exposed.

Koran 9:17-18

It is not for the idolaters to inhabit God's places of worship, witnessing against themselves unbelief; those -- their works have failed them, and in the Fire they shall dwell forever.

Only he shall inhabit God's places of worship who believes in God and the Last Day, and performs the prayer, and pays the alms, and fears none but God alone; it may be that those will be among the guided.

Snowball speaks with forked-tongue

Of course I condemn apartheid.

I wouldn't be among the 100,000 white religious Jews marching in favour of apartheid yesterday - protesting that they want to continue to separate their kids from non-white Jewish kids.

And whilst I understand your need to label 'muslims only' in Mecca as apartheid, I'm just amused you are equating it with the real racism the protestors in Jerusalem are revolting over! (I also note that the only terrorism you refuse to condemn is that committed by a white American Jewish emigrant - Baruch Goldstein. Which raises the question - as well as being the most extreme religious fanatic here, are you also the most racist??)

Now the mothers are fugitives from the law:

Hunt for Haredi parents evading jail in segregated school row

Police seek warrants as 35 fathers of girls at an illegally segregated ultra-Orthodox school arrive at prison to begin two-week sentence - but mothers fail to show.

...
Parents of European, or Ashkenazi, descent at the all girls' school don't want their daughters to study with schoolgirls of Mideast and North African descent, known as Sephardim.

The Ashkenazi parents insist they aren't racist, but want to keep the classrooms segregated, as they have been for years, arguing that the families of the Sephardi girls aren't religious enough.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/hunt-for-haredi-parents-evading-jail-in-segregated-school-row-1.296746

Pretty open and shut case for apartheid there - white European Jews don't want their kids mixing with non-white Jews, but insist this is not down to racism.

Cheers,
Shafique

So you do or don't condemn religious apartheid found in the central religious text in Islam ?

And it's not like the place(s) of worship Allah forbids non-Muslims from attending were deserted of active worshipers or anything like that.

Muslims took over Pagan holy sites and forbid the Pagans and other non-Muslims from ever entering again, let alone worshiping there.

Surely this should be condemned by anyone who is truly concerned with condemning all forms of bigotry and apartheid.

Of course, your previous history of defending Islamic intolerance does all the talking for you.

Sorry my previous post confused you.

I unreservedly condemn the apartheid policies which segregate white Jewish kids from non-white Jewish kids - and am still shocked that 100,000 + protested yesterday in Jerusalem in favour of Apartheid.

I don't recognise the label apartheid when it is applied to Mecca where all races go to worship God. I understand your desire to make this link between 'Muslims only' and European racism - but my mind obviously doesn't work the way your's does (and given that you are the most extreme religious fanatic here - refusing to condemn white Jewish terrorists and enslavement of virgins etc, I'm relieved my views are different!)

Would you have joined the 100,000 protestors on their march or would you support Judge Levy and the other Israelis who condemn the racists for what they are?

Cheers,
Shafique

Er...I have been to both Mecca and Medina.

I am non Muslim.

From personal experience, the big issue in KSA is not religion. Its nationality.

On the whole, the Saudis have an issue with 'trust' based on their historical experiences of other nationalities understanding and acceptance of their culture and thinking. If you can demonstrate that you are not intent on undermining their conservative values, the trust level increases. I was invited to go to Mecca and Medina and was openly welcomed in both locations as a visiting non Muslim. I also made it clear that I was not a potential convert to Islam and that my intent was one of gaining a better understanding of the religion and the positive influences it has on the lives of the faithful.

If you wish to experience bigotry and apartheid, then you need look no further than the way they consider naturalised Yemeni or Sudani citizens within their own borders. Yes, they are muslim and for this reason they are tolerated but, because of their ethnic background, they will never be fully trusted by the 'pure' Saudi's.

Sad, but true.



Knight

DK - what were your impressions of Mecca and Medina?

I was actually a bit downcast at the sight of McDonalds in Mecca (when driving in from Jeddah) - and the commercialisation of area around the Haram Sharif, but was still over-whelmed at the Ka'aba itself (from a spirtiual perspective). Medina felt far less frantic and 'calm' - many describe the difference as Mecca is like the 'sun' to Medina's 'moon'.

Regarding racism in Saudi - actually one of the sad thing about the Mid East in general, is indeed the overt racism. In Dubai it is taken for granted that passport influences salaries, and even then skin colour/ethnicity comes into play with a 'European citizens'. I still find this very disconcerting.

The treatment of Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi workers at the airports in Saudi etc was cringing to me everytime I witness it.

What you describe of the 'pure Saudis' vs the Yemeni and Sudanis is reminscent of the other snobs around the world. The Europeans have learnt to hide it better than most (France the BCBG, the British aristocracy, and even the US has it's old money snobs -basically a 'we're better than you because of our breeding/heritage). Edit: and let's not forget that this is institutionalised in India's caste system, and which Pakistan is also not immune from (they have the equivalent of 'high borns' too)

Still, I think the Haredim segregation protests are in a different league from the above examples - but that's just me.

Cheers,
Shafique

I was actually surprised at some of the overt 'commercialism' in Mecca. I was not there at the time of Hajj and things were quieter but the hotels and apartments that overlooked the Ka'aba were all being marketed at rates that would have made the hoteliers of Dubai jealous!

The mosque itself is stunning merely because of its size although the Sheikh Zayed Mosque in Abu Dhabi is possibly more impressive architecturally. Its not as old as I expected. Having been to the central mosque in Tunis, I was expecting a similar building but this was very white with little adornment. This was quite modern and the facilities are definitely geared to handling mass audiences. The city was pretty unmemorable apart from that except for the diversity of restaurants. It was unusual to see so many Indonesian food outlets in Saudi!

Medina was much more interesting for me. The buildings were older and there were many of historical and local design that were delightful. Regrettably I was unable to take either my camera or my mobile with me as this was part of the conditions of being able to visit. I was taken to the Qur'anic education centre there, which is a very impressive campus, with a delightful central courtyard arboretum and a very peaceful air. The hotels were less commercial and appeared a little run down and there were still plenty of eateries.

My trip was all together too short (a single day visit) and I would love to go back and spend some more time there. My guide from the Ministry of Islamic Affairs was incredibly knowledgeable and courteous throughout. I felt a little as if I was being 'appraised' and I am sure I was only being shown a sanitised version of the true cities, but it was educational and informative. I was continually asked about my personal religion and it seemed to throw a curve ball at them to tell them I was 'Jedi'! One guy stopped and though long about my answer and then asked "So are you Christian Jedi or Muslim Jedi?"!!

My impressions? It felt like a package holiday destination. The local population has refined the art of 'hospitality' to such a degree that they know exactly what facilities to offer and how to handle almost any visiting nationality. There were currency exchange centres everywhere, signs in Arabic and Hindi and English, guide books, car hire outlets...all the trappings of commercialism. Even the Al Baik restaurant had the menu printed in English!

I feel enlightened to have been and it has helped me to understand a little more about Islam generally. Yet I will remain Jedi thank you very much.



Knight