Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities?

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Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 14, 2010
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jews-reluctantly-abandon-swedish-city-amid-growing-anti-semitism-1.301276

But as in many other cities across Europe, a rapidly growing Muslim population living in segregated conditions that seem to breed alienation has mixed toxically with the anger directed at Israeli policies and actions by those Muslims — and by many non-Muslims — to all but transform the lives of local Jews.

A small, mostly Jewish group held a demonstration that was billed as a peace rally but seen as a sign of support for Israel. This peaceful demonstration was cut short when the demonstrators were attacked by a much larger screaming mob of Muslims and Swedish leftists who threw bottles and firecrackers at them as police seemed unable to stop the mounting mayhem.

Anti-Semitism in Europe has historically been associated with the far right, but the Jews interviewed for this article say that the threat in Sweden now comes from Muslims and from changing attitudes about Jews in the wider society.

“[There is] quite a high level of anti-Semitism that is hidden beneath critics of Israel’s policies,” said Beate Kupper, one of the study’s principal researchers

According to Bassam Tibi, professor emeritus of international relations at the University of Goettingen in Germany, and author of several books on the growth of Islam in Europe, Muslims form a significant subset of this problem. “The growth of the Muslim diaspora in Europe is affecting the Jews,”

But Per Gudmundson, chief editorial writer for Svenska Dagbladet, a leading Swedish newspaper, is critical of politicians who blame anti-Semitic actions on Muslim living conditions. He said that these politicians offer “weak excuses” for Muslim teenagers accused of anti-Semitic crimes. “Politicians say these kids are poor and oppressed, and we have made them hate. They are, in effect, saying the behavior of these kids is in some way our fault,” he said.

“I’m from Israel,” Tsubarah responded.

“I’m from Palestine,” one assailant retorted, “and I will kill you.”

The three beat him to the ground and kicked him in the back, Tsubarah said. “Kill the Jew,” they shouted. “Now are you proud to be a Jew?”

“No I am not,” the slightly built teenager replied. He said he did this just to get them to stop kicking him. Tsubarah plans to go to Israel and join the army.

“Sweden is a microcosm of contemporary anti-Semitism,” said Charles Small, director of the Yale University Initiative for the Study of Anti-Semitism. “It’s a form of acquiescence to radical Islam, which is diametrically opposed to everything Sweden stands for.”

Interviewed at Malmo’s city hall, Lagerback acknowledged an “awful situation” in Rosengard, where fire trucks and ambulances are often stoned by angry Muslim youth when the emergency vehicles go there.

Now, some schools no longer ask Holocaust survivors to tell their stories, because Muslim students treat them with such disrespect, either ignoring the speakers or walking out of the class.

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Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 14, 2010
Donald Snyder from Forward.com (who wrote the article), seems to be a resident of loonville according to this commentator (number 92 on the Haaretz page):

aliyah from sweden not due to antisemtism
dennis 12.07.1018:01

I am a Jew from Malmo who made aliyah 4 years ago. I am well acquainted with the situation in Malmo and although there is a serious problem with anti-Israel sentiments in the city, the above description is grossly exaggerated. My parents and several of mine and their friends still live in Malmo and can also attest to that. I know most of the other Jews who made aliyah from Malmo and almost none of us made aliyah because of anti-semitism, but rather because of a dying Jewish community and a lack of oppurtunity to retain our and our children's Jewish identity in the future. The aliyah from Malmo is a matter to rejoice over, not to mourn, since it fulfills the generations long yearning for a return to Israel and guarantees the continued Jewish identity of the Malmo Jews who made this brave decision.



'grossly exaggerated' - common loon tactic.

Comment 34 wasn't impressed either:

I didn't hear anything of antisemitism
David 12.07.1001:00

It seems like all of the troubles are related towards perceived sympathy and support of Israel/Zionism. How is that anti-semitism? Why is this family moving from SWEDEN to Israel? If they weren't simply Zionists are are meeting their fair share of criticism, wouldn't they move to, I dunno, another Swedish city...or perhaps another EU state? I feel sorry that they're now coming to Israel, I bet they'll find it even worse here. Poor little ethnic-supremicists!


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Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 14, 2010
Horrible Horrible state of affairs. But c'mon FD as far as anti-semetism goes lets not forget White Nationalists who hate Jews with a vengance!!
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 15, 2010
It's also worth quoting a portion of the article that FD selected his quotes from above (i.e. he chose not to quote these two paragraphs):

There are an estimated 45,000 Muslims in Malmo, or 15% of the city’s population. Many of them are Palestinians, Iraqis and Somalis, or come from the former Yugoslavia.
But the problem is not just Muslims, and not just Malmo’s.

A European Problem

A continent-wide study, conducted by the Institute for Interdisciplinary Research on Conflict and Violence at the University of Bielefeld in Germany, released in December 2009, found that that 45.7% of the Europeans surveyed agree somewhat or strongly with the following statement: “Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians.” And 37.4% agreed with this statement: “Considering Israel’s policy, I can understand why people do not like Jews.
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Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 15, 2010
First the writer is from loonville and than he is quoted. :?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html

When she first arrived in Sweden after her rescue from a Nazi concentration camp, Judith Popinski was treated with great kindness.
She raised a family in the city of Malmo, and for the next six decades lived happily in her adopted homeland - until last year.
In 2009, a chapel serving the city's 700-strong Jewish community was set ablaze. Jewish cemeteries were repeatedly desecrated, worshippers were abused on their way home from prayer, and "Hitler" was mockingly chanted in the streets by masked men.
"I never thought I would see this hatred again in my lifetime, not in Sweden anyway," Mrs Popinski told The Sunday Telegraph.
"This new hatred comes from Muslim immigrants. The Jewish people are afraid now."
Malmo's Jews, however, do not just point the finger at bigoted Muslims and their fellow racists in the country's Neo-Nazi fringe. They also accuse Ilmar Reepalu, the Left-wing mayor who has been in power for 15 years, of failing to protect them.
Hate crimes, mainly directed against Jews, doubled last year with Malmo's police recording 79 incidents and admitting that far more probably went unreported. As of yet, no direct attacks on people have been recorded but many Jews believe it is only a matter of time in the current climate.
The city's synagogue has guards and rocket-proof glass in the windows, while the Jewish kindergarten can only be reached through thick steel security doors.
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 15, 2010
Yes, it is curious that the resident loons here are more extreme than the inhabitants of loonville that they quote. I wonder sometimes about that. ;)

I guess that those who publish loon opinions in newspapers etc can't afford to invent stats or present made up accounts as fact - they can spin and exaggerate, but will try to bury the counter-arguments in the stories (i.e. the two parapraphs that you chose not to quote above, in the lengthy article that was largely loon spin)


In the Telegraph article, Mrs Popinski's comments need to be weighed against those of 'David' quoted above, and it is notable that even the Telegraph (right wing UK paper) also says that this is not a solely Muslim issue. (And indeed, hate crimes - none involving direct attacks - are not solely against Jews and numbered 79 in the whole year!)

Great examples loon exaggerations - thanks for bringing these to our attention.

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Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 15, 2010
'David' is an 'anonymous' poster with a comment who could live anywhere in the world...how could that ever weigh against verified eye-witness accounts. :roll:
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 15, 2010
Well, I didn't make him up. ;)

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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 17, 2010
The tensions between Muslims and Jews living around the world in multi-cultural settings would ease if Israel and Palestine worked out their problems and a peaceful and mutually agreeable solution was reached.

I don't think enough people want peace, and that's a big problem.
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Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 17, 2010
Right, because Jews are attacking Muslims in Europe.......

But really, the next time there is an actual attack against Muslims (not made up) in the West, we can blame it on 'tensions' in the world due to Islamic terrorism and supremacism.
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 18, 2010
kanelli wrote:The tensions between Muslims and Jews living around the world in multi-cultural settings would ease if Israel and Palestine worked out their problems and a peaceful and mutually agreeable solution was reached.

I don't think enough people want peace, and that's a big problem.


I think that is an obvious point - and not just between Muslims and Jews, the original article quoted by FD above stated that the problem is Europe wide - and that almost half agreed that Israel's treatment of Palestinians was effectively a war of extermination and over a third understood why people would not like Jews (I quoted this part of the article above).

Of course, there are 'loons' who have so much hatred for Muslims that they come up (and defend!) statements such as:
Peace with Islam and Muslims is impossible. The only time Muslims seek peace is when they need to reload.

philosophy-dubai/most-extreme-religous-fanatic-here-t41961-30.html#p341839

These guys are part of the problem, and will always look to blame Islam and will not accept that Israeli culpability.

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Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 18, 2010
Very disturbing, but not surprising, that some posters try to excuse anti-semitism, attacking and harassing jews worldwide because of the IPC.

I even find this disturbing:

Zionist girls fair game for Arab men

Appartlenly the killing of jews (although they were anti-Zionist) during the Mumbai attack was also fair game.

I have also heard Belgium girls are fair game now in Egypt because of the Belgium burqa ban...
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 18, 2010
I'm just waiting for the 'Arabs drink the blood of Jewish babies' line... we're not that far away from that it appears.

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Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 18, 2010
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 18, 2010
Ah, but when will the loons start saying that Arabs do drink the blood of Jewish babies.. you're not denying that you're not far from this in your hatred of all things Muslim.

In fact, I was taken aback that you started a thread to try and justify one of the most Islamophobic statement I've seen here on these forums:
Peace with Islam and Muslims is impossible. The only time Muslims seek peace is when they need to reload.


philosophy-dubai/the-only-time-muslims-seek-peace-when-they-need-reload-t42509.html

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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 18, 2010
shafique wrote:Ah, but when will the loons start saying that Arabs do drink the blood of Jewish babies.. you're not denying that you're not far from this in your hatred of all things Muslim.


Hyperbol foaming when confronted with actions from the hero's from the Islamic resistance.

shafique wrote:In fact, I was taken aback that you started a thread to try and justify one of the most Islamophobic statement I've seen here on these forums:


The thread was opened as a question, for which an answer stayed away. If there anything to add, place in that thread, not in this thread which is about anti-semitism in Europe.
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 18, 2010
^FD - as I said, rather than distance yourself from eh's Islamophobic comments, you decided to start a thread to try and justify the statement. It would have been more honest to just come out into the open like eh and admit your views. In that thread you asked a question about a one-line quote from a scholar, and I quoted what the same scholar had to say on the subject - but that's moot, you didn't distance yourself from the Islamophobic comment then or now.


I also tried to find out information about the suicide attacks by these two - well, B'tselem lists that 5 soldiers were killed on 12 December 2004 at the Karni Crossing (and that on the 7th December one soldier and his dog was killed when a chicken coop exploded). Both incidents were claimed by Hamas.
http://www.btselem.org/english/statisti ... egion=GAZA

(But, perhaps showing wikipedia's faults, Wiki does not list the Dec 12 attack:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... ombings.29

Both targetted (and killed) soldiers.

I also confirmed this from the Israeli gov website:
Dec 7, 2004 - St.-Sgt. Nadav Kudinsky, 20, of Kiryat Gat of the Oketz canine unit was killed by a bomb, along with his dog, when a booby-trapped chicken coup exploded northwest of the Karni Corssing in the Gaza Strip. Four soldiers were wounded in the exchange of fire while evacuating him. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 12, 2004 - Five IDF soldiers were killed and five wounded in a combined explosives tunnel and gunmen attack on an IDF post located near the Rafah terminal post, followed by the infiltration of the post by two terrorists who opened fire and activated another explosive device. Hamas and the Fatah Hawks claimed responsibility for the attack.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Main+terrorist+attacks+carried+out+at+Gaza+Strip+crossings+16-Jan-2005.htm

I know that Israel automatically calls anyone targetting Israeli soldiers 'terrorists', but in this case the targets and casualties were soldiers. I wouldn't call the above attacks against soldiers as terrorist acts by Hamas, but if civilians were targetted (or where civilians would be known collateral damage) then that would be terrorism.

I don't know enough Arabic to comment on the phrase 'drinking Jewish blood' etc - but note that it is a Palestine Media Watch translation.


Anyway, this is all to show that Islamophobic labelling is behind the finger pointing - and as shown in the quote from FD's original article, the issue of anti-Jew sentiment in Europe is widespread and not limited to Muslims - AND it is linked to Israeli actions against Palestinians.

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Shafique
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Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 18, 2010
I am not the one calling Hamza Yusuf an Islamophobe...

For the rest: stay on topic buddybud!
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 18, 2010
Anyway, this is all to show that Islamophobic labelling is behind the finger pointing - and as shown in the quote from FD's original article, the issue of anti-Jew sentiment in Europe is widespread and not limited to Muslims - AND it is linked to Israeli actions against Palestinians.


And trying to imply I called Hamza Yusuf an Islamophobe when actually I quoted him demolishing loon views on Islam is funny. Good to see humour instead of insults though - buddy. ;)

So, do you disagree with the quote from your original article that states:


There are an estimated 45,000 Muslims in Malmo, or 15% of the city’s population. Many of them are Palestinians, Iraqis and Somalis, or come from the former Yugoslavia.
But the problem is not just Muslims, and not just Malmo’s.

A European Problem

A continent-wide study, conducted by the Institute for Interdisciplinary Research on Conflict and Violence at the University of Bielefeld in Germany, released in December 2009, found that that 45.7% of the Europeans surveyed agree somewhat or strongly with the following statement: “Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians.” And 37.4% agreed with this statement: “Considering Israel’s policy, I can understand why people do not like Jews.


Back on topic.

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Shafique
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 18, 2010
What we need is more decoy burqa clad women so the phobes don't freak out everytime they seen one !
Atleast the Jewish garb doesn't banned because people are just not used to it.
Fair don't ya think ;)
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 18, 2010
DD - you forget that loons will just invent problems. If tomorrow all the burqas disappeared, I guarantee that the likes of Bob Spencer and his minions will all start saying that they've gone undercover by uncovering! :)

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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 21, 2010
Except that burqas are not a requirement of Islam, according to the Quran. It is a cultural layer imposed on Islamic customs in some countries, just like female genital mutilation. No one is banning headscarves or abayas in public, but showing one's face is a must in most countries around the world. Sorry, but if people don't like it they can move to Saudi.
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 21, 2010
^I agree kanelli - burqas should not be enforced, but I do have an issue with it being banned as well - but that's just the British side of me speaking! ;)


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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 22, 2010
Well, you could do an experiment by wearing a ski mask to work every day in public places and see how comfortable it makes others feel. Then the ban may not seem so bad. :)
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 22, 2010
Depends on how cold it is - I used to cycle in London and quite happily wore a mask to keep down the pollution I breathed in... that was in public. ;)

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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 22, 2010
When my little guy was in hospital at Christmas and we were quarantined in isolation for 24hrs as a precaution for H1N1, all the docs and nurses had masks on. I could only recognise the one doctor with red eyeglasses. If I met any of those nurses or doctors again I would have no clue who they are. I don't like that.
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 22, 2010
Hey, I think that muffin tops are really offensive and I don't like them (as well as beer bellies and speedos; mullets, shaved and painted on eyebrows etc etc!) - but would I ban them?

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Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 22, 2010
Muffin tops are distastefull, not offensive. Although crazy stuff is going on in the UK, I donot believe doing shopping with a naked beer belly and only a speedo in Oxford Street is socially/culturely accepted and such a person might count on a word or two from Bobby. But anybody warn me, where speedo wearing beer belly men demand their own swimming times.
Mullets and painted eyebrowes are not my cup of tea, but offensive? Certainly not.
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Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 22, 2010
You see, each person has their own dislikes and likes - and for beer bellies and speedos, even at swimming pools and beaches they are a sight I'd rather not see! ;)

Of course, my point is that just because I happen to find something offensive, I'm not necessarily going to want to ban people from dressing or grooming that way if that is what they want to do. I can, after all, choose not to look at the offending 'wobbly bits'! :)

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Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 22, 2010
It is not about what a person thinks, it is not about I, I, me, me. It is about what is culturally and socially accepted within a society. It is not socially accepted in Western societies to do shopping in the main shopping street with a bare beel belly and only a speedo. Those people are frowned upon and I wouldn't be surprised the police urges them to dress more decent. It is also culturally accepted that one can see once face (of course outside those lame excuses such as cold weather etc.)
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