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Even according to that data, anti-semitism rose more than 100%.

Almost all incidents were caused by Moroccans, or people that appear Moroccan. (source: cidi.nl)

You are right, the numbers went from 17 to 41, and Ballin addressed this:

But those rises may reflect a public campaign encouraging people to report hate crimes. Hirsch Ballin told parliament Thursday police had seen no real increase in anti-Semitism.

See, even with stats that aren't just dreamt up by loons, you still need to interpret the stats - not jump to conclusions.

(note that the above is clear if you had read what I posted:

shafique wrote:..
It is interesting to note that the suggestion for police to act as decoys was raised by a Moroccan Dutch politician

Also, a justice minister had this to say:

The number of instances of reported anti-Semitism in Amsterdam rose in 2009 from the previous year, according to government data, from 17 to 41. Discrimination cases on the basis of skin color or country of origin rose from 232 to 336 in the same period, while anti-gay cases rose to 89 from 55.

But those rises may reflect a public campaign encouraging people to report hate crimes. Hirsch Ballin told parliament Thursday police had seen no real increase in anti-Semitism.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100625/ap_on_re_eu/eu_netherlands_decoy_jews/print;_ylt=AkZZmwSXMVTthqDjpuhrLZtbbBAF;_ylu=X3oDMTBycjdqNWs0BHBvcwMxNQRzZWMDYm90dG9tBHNsawNwcmludA

..

Did you notice what the numbers were - 17 growing to 41. Per Year.

As for the 70% statistic - do we agree that this was just a figment of your imagination?

Cheers,
Shafique

A lying politician imagine that!

Anti-semitism (according to cases reported to the police) rose with more than 100%, but still there is no real rise.

do we agree that this was just a figment of your imagination?

Constantly seeking approval/agreement of others because of insecurities -> projection.

Excellent, so the Justice minister misled parliament when he reported that "police had seen no real increase in anti-Semitism"


Proof that Loons hold on to fantasies despite facts (and make up statistics).


FD - you've lost it. Thanks for the laugh.


Given that we've substituted comedy for evidence, we might as well have some fun.

Cheers,
Shafique

According to a study in The Hague, the risk for schizophrenia by Moroccan men in the Netherlands is six times greater than by ethnic Dutch, but the risk by women is not significantly higher.

For Moroccans of the second generation, the chance of this psychiatric disorder is 11 times as high than for ethnic members of the same age group. For the second generation the total number of patients was too small in order to draw conclusion about sex differences.

On the other hand, the risk for migrants form Turkey were only slightly higher by men and not high at all for women.

Doctor JP Selten is now running a study to find the cause for these difference.

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2006/10/dutch-study-why-are-moroccans.html

Was the only source I could find in English.

FD - you're grasping at straws now.

You've been exposed making up statistics about criminality of Dutch Moroccans (eg - saying 70% of Dutch-Moroccans living in Amsterdam are criminals), so trawling loon websites for circumstantial evidence from 2006 isn't really going to help you.

Cheers,
Shafique

Constantly trying to ridicule posters, very insecure.

'Constantly' must have a different meaning in Dutch - I ridiculed you after you posted a comedy post in response to another request for evidence for your fantastical invention of 70%...




But, hey - I'm nothing if not generous.

Here is a link to the English pdf of the 2006 report you referred to in the previous post:
http://www.palier.nl/1793/Veling1.pdf

Cheers,
Shafique

Strange, a few days ago islamineurope was interesting:

shafique wrote:Also interesting to note what those conducting the survey said:

Bovekerk is also dead set against having ethnicity play a role in social work or sentencing. Since when can a crime be explained by origin? Is certain behavior typically Moroccan or does it come from street culture? He points to a visit to Morocco of Dutch police agents and officials , where they heard that the boys for which they wanted to get a cultural explanation were not Moroccan, but Dutch. "These boys are the product of North-European cities."

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/ ... roups.html

I never said it wasn't an interesting site - I just said that trawling loon websites for circumstantial evidence wasn't going to help you. It isn't. As the highlighted bit in red points out.

Don't you have any shame that you've been caught out inventing statistics?

You and EH would be having a field day if any other poster was exposed making up facts. (eh may not be so quick to laugh, given his track record of presenting fictional accounts as 'facts' though).

What happened FD - you used to have integrity?

Cheers,
Shafique

Not quite sure what all the fuss is about, perhaps this:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Did some digging. The Utrecht police chief stated that 80% of youth criminality in Utrecht is done by Moroccans. Later, under political pressure, he had to change this to "a very substantial majority". For Amsterdam, a journalist quoted the Amsterdam police saying 70% of young Moroccans in Amsterdam have a criminal past. So, my previous statements regarding 70 and 80% were not completely correct.

Eh and FD, FD and eh, eh, eh, eh, FD
Obessively replying to virtualy every post of FD and EH in politics and religion, ...

Fair enough- you've admitted the statements made previously were wrong and I admit I missed the mea-culpa where you owned up the 70% 'of all Amsterdam's resident Dutch Moroccan according to an in depth study' was wrong also.

We can move on now.

I apologise for thinking wrongly that you hadn't owned up to the last one.



Coming back to the 'comedy post' above though. Are you seriously saying that Parliament was misled when it was told that anti-semitism isn't on the rise in Amsterdam according to the police? (serious question)

cheers,
Shafique

The research report syas:

The risk [of schizophrenia: inserted by poster] was particularly high for second
generation immigrants: the age- and gender-adjusted incidence rate ratio was 5.8 (95% CI, 2.9–11.4) for Moroccans, 2.9 (1.6–5.0)
for Surinamese, 2.3 (1.0–5.4) for Turks, and 3.5 (1.8–6. for immigrants from other non-Western countries.

Moroccans stand out.

In their conclusion:

Moroccan immigrants to the Netherlands have
greater difficulties in their process of acculturation to
Dutch society than Surinamese or Antillean immigrants
and their relationship with the Dutch population has
become increasingly problematic

This is apparent. There is something special about Moroccans.

And further:

Remarkably, whereas the risk was very high for first
and second generation Moroccan males, the risk for
Moroccan females, first or second generation, was not
significantly increased.

By personal observation I can see some validity in this. Moroccans girls are eager in school and do find jobs. Moroccan boys roam the streets and cause trouble. The reason is speculative. Girls I assume are under close control at home and donot linger the streets, afterwards they are ready to enjoy the pleasures of free Dutch society.

I agree the report is interesting on a number of levels - the final paragraphs of the report state:

Given the reports elsewhere of extremely high risks for black immigrants (Cantor-Graae and Selten, 2005), it
is of interest that the highest risk obtained in this study applies to a non-black minority group, i.e., Moroccan males.

Moroccan immigrants to the Netherlands have greater difficulties in their process of acculturation to Dutch society than Surinamese or Antillean immigrants and their relationship with the Dutch population has become increasingly problematic (Dagevos et al., 2003).

This suggests that the experience of social defeat (Selten and Cantor-Graae, 2005) and acculturative stress (Berry et al., 2002) might be important factors here. These concepts, encompassing experiences of a subordinate position, ‘outsider status’ (Selten and Cantor-Graae, 2005), marginalization, perceived discrimination, and a weak ethnic identity (Berry et al., 2002) are likely to operate increasingly across both generations of immigrants.

Which ties in with the other studies that point out the social status issues (economic, perceived discrimination etc) amongst the Dutch-Moroccans. These factors can explain the relatively higher proportions of problems/criminality that the studies do show (but fall short of the 'epidemic', 'the sky is falling' rhetoric on some web sites).

(Also bear in mind that the results for second generation immigrants is not that credible - in the statistical sense - as they point out in the introduction. The total numbers of Dutch Moroccans was lower than 3000 and the number of cases 9 in total - in this group. However, for first generation there is more data and the results are statistically credible.)

But coming back to the point about anti-semitism in Amsterdam and the deployment of undercover cops. Can I ask you yet again whether you are seriously saying that Parliament was misled by the Justice minister when he said recently that Anti-Semitism in Amsterdam had not increased according to the police? This fact was made in an article talking about the undercover cops.

Also, the limited anti-semitism that does occur is not limited to Dutch-Moroccan youths either - native Dutch boys are also guilty of anti-semitic behaviour.

Cheers,
Shafique

For some reason, Dutch police find it necessary to dress up as Jewish looking men.

They must know as much as you do, shafique.

It is the Dutch Police that say there is no rise in anti-semitic crimes in Amsterdam, as reported to Parliament by the Justice Minister LAST WEEK - as reported in the article talking about the undercover cops.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100625/ap_ ... ecoy_jews/

So, unless you know more than the Police and the justice minister - the reason they are dressing up is not because of an increase in anti-semitism (and in any case the numbers of cases was only 41 last year).

Sorry to bust your bubble.


Also, the Jewish community says that native-Dutch boys also commit these acts - so it is not a problem exclusively with Dutch-Moroccan boys.


Cheers,
Shafique

The finer wisdoms of the justice minister:

"antisemitism didnt rise, but I have no clue what the extent of the problem is"

"I admit that incidents get reported as general harasment or discrimination by the police and not as anti-semitic incidents"

"Yes, the police doesnt make a distinction between discrimination and antisemitism. Antisemitic incidents get reported as discrimination"

"I acknowledge that many incidents donot get reported, because people donot expect much from the police"

True that, police solve 20% of crime. If a car thieve is caught (20% chance), half a year later that person will receive a letter whether that person please can report to a police station. If the person does that and gets convicted (which is pretty hard in Holland), the punshiment will likely be two weeks of community service.

"I base my conclusion that antisemism didnt rise on reports from an anti-discrimination office in Amsterdam"

Checking office report : "the largets rise in complaints were about anti-semitism in 2009"

Ministers respons: "there are reports and there are reports."

But hey, why do difficult if you can just easily parrot the PC left church.

And still, the police finds it necessary to deploy decoy jews in Amsterdam-west (little Marrakech) and not decoy muslims in Amstelveen (little Jerusalem).

Perhaps belgiumoroccan can explain why Moroccans don't integrate very well and feel victimized, and consider themselves outsiders:

we muslims are taking over europe.there is even a shari'a court.what a blessing from ALLAH.alhamdulilah!the jews are traveling back to israel because there bussines collapse long time ago in antwerp diamont sector.That's not new!

Did you enjoy that rant?

I simply asked FD whether he thought the Dutch Parliament had been misled when the Justice minister told them that there hasn't been a rise in anti-Semitism, despite all the fanciful statistics and beliefs that FD likes to present.

FD - I would have thought you'd be in a good mood given that Holland is in the semis - but it appears that your hatred is getting the better of you and you can't handle the fact that the evidence doesn't live up to your view of mad Dutch moroccans!

It must be pretty galling for you that little native-Dutch boys also harrass Jews and commit the crimes that require the Dutch police to go undercover as Jews.

cheers,
Shafique

At least the police doesn't consider drinking tea with criminal Moroccans as a way to solve the issues:

Loons can't handle the truth it appears!

http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-politics-talk/decoy-jews-dutch-land-t42381-90.html#p341320


FD rants are turning into classic loon fantasies:

Since football (the only real one) already entered the thread, I would like to give some attention to:

"Play the ball not the man"

We can be bold enough to make a stand and do battle for our views and beliefs. But we must strive to be mature enough not to resort to unnecessary personal attacks upon people with opposing views.


Maturity may refer to:

-Sexual maturity, the stage when an organism can reproduce, though it is distinct from adulthood
-Maturity (psychological), a term in developmental psychology to indicate that a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate manner

shafique wrote:Did you enjoy that rant?

I simply asked FD whether he thought the Dutch Parliament had been misled when the Justice minister told them that there hasn't been a rise in anti-Semitism, despite all the fanciful statistics and beliefs that FD likes to present.

FD - I would have thought you'd be in a good mood given that Holland is in the semis - but it appears that your hatred is getting the better of you and you can't handle the fact that the evidence doesn't live up to your view of mad Dutch moroccans!

It must be pretty galling for you that little native-Dutch boys also harrass Jews and commit the crimes that require the Dutch police to go undercover as Jews.

cheers,
Shafique

Snowflake, if you read and understood FD's post, you would find that he previously answered the question you are now asking him.

So, the Justice Minister DID tell parliament that anti-semitism is not on the rise according to the Police.

FD has given some unreferenced quotes which don't dispute this simple fact.

In any case, the actual numbers of crimes went up to 41 from 17, and even though I've asked a few times now - the anti-semitism comes also from native-Dutch boys (so is not an exclusive Dutch-Moroccan issue).

Factor in the fact that last year 8 prisons in the Netherlands were closed due to a lack of criminals, and we have a picture which is at odds with the scare stories we read.

I therefore rest my case. I suspected early on that there was what I called 'loon exaggeration' going on - and the evidence is that my instinct was right.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:FD has given some unreferenced quotes which don't dispute this simple fact.

"I admit that incidents get reported as general harasment or discrimination by the police and not as anti-semitic incidents"

"Yes, the police doesnt make a distinction between discrimination and antisemitism. Antisemitic incidents get reported as discrimination"

"I acknowledge that many incidents donot get reported, because people donot expect much from the police"

Seriously, you're too dumb for words.

So, the Justice Minister DID tell parliament that anti-semitism is not on the rise according to the Police.

Who says that attacks against Jews need to be on the rise? Most likely they are sky high to begin with - which is why the police are dressing up as Jews and walking through mixed or predominantly Moroccan neighborhoods.

You really have no common sense.

FD has given some unreferenced quotes which don't dispute this simple fact.

Once again, too dumb for words. Ignoring the quotes I just pasted in this post - that attacks against Jews are under-reported by the police - the decision to dress up as Jews is a result of continuous attacks against Jews.

And despite your effort to shift the blame and minimize Moroccan Antisemitism, the police do not seem to be patrolling ethnic dutch neighborhoods.

Factor in the fact that last year 8 prisons in the Netherlands were closed due to a lack of criminal

The closing of prisons doesn't prove that Dutch-Moroccans are committing less crimes.

I therefore rest my case. I suspected early on that there was what I called 'loon exaggeration' going on - and the evidence is that my instinct was right.

LoL - whatever you say, snowball.

You google around for twenty minutes and you're more of an expert than the people who actually live in the Netherlands.

And that's ignoring the story that the police have recently felt it necessary to curb attacks against Jews by going so far as to dress up as Jews and patrol neighborhoods.

ROFLMAO!

The debat also touched on the holocaust:

http://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerstukken/verslagen/kamer_in_het_kort/toenemend_antisemitisme.jsp

Sommige geschiedenisdocenten durven de jeugd niet meer te informeren over de verschrikkingen van de Holocaust. Het zijn volgens De Roon (PVV) en Van Raak (SP) vooral islamitische leerlingen die hun docenten intimideren.

Some history teachers donot dare informing the youth about the horrors of the holocaust. According to De Roon (PVV) and Van Raak (SP) [LOL right and left are united on one point: comment inserted by poster] this is mainly because of inimidation of Islamic students.

The debat showed 1 out of 5 teachers are intimated.

The debat was live, so anyone can ask to view it:

http://www.tweedekamer.nl/contact/contact/index.jsp

Sorry, but I cannot quote from the official documents, because that would be against the law:

Uit deze ongecorrigeerde tekst mag niet worden geciteerd. Aan deze tekst kunnen geen rechten worden ontleend.

We have to wait a few days...until all parlement members approved it.

Long posts, but the official stats are still:
1. 8 Prisons closed last year in Netherlands due to lack of criminals
2. Parliament told that there is no increase in Anti-semitism in Amsterdam according to police
3. only 41 anti-semitic incidents in 2009, 17 in 2008 (rise attributed to higher reporting rates)

And on top of that, anti-semitic attacks also carried out by native-Dutch boys.

I rest my case that loon exaggeration is at play.

Cheers,
Shafique

Whether or not anitisemitism is rising or not is quite mute in a discussion why decoy jews are necessary in little Marrakech. Same whether or not prisons will be closed. Anyways, the amount of convicted criminals is still rising an around a third of youth prison population are ethnic Morroccans.

shafique wrote:2. Parliament told that there is no increase in Anti-semitism in Amsterdam according to police

Provide a quote. At the end of the debate, the parlement ended with two joined statements:

32123-VI
De Kamer,
gehoord de beraadslaging,
constaterende dat er in Nederland sprake is van een verontrustende omvang van antisemitische incidenten en uitingen

"Antisemitism is at a very worrying level."

And:

32123-VI
De Kamer,
gehoord de beraadslaging,
constaterende dat in 2009 het aantal gemelde incidenten ten opzichte van 2008 met 55% is gestegen, van 108 naar 167 incidenten;
constaterende dat de politie geen uitingen van antisemitisme registreert, maar die van discriminatie wel;
van mening dat registratie van meldingen van antisemitische uitingen en bedreigingen kan helpen om een beter inzicht te krijgen in de omvang van de problematiek;
verzoekt de regering, politie en Justitie te verzoeken meldingen van antisemitisme wederom te gaan registreren,

"Antisemitic incidents rose with 55% to 167 incidents. The parlement noticed that the police doesn't register anti-semitic incidents, only discrimination. Th eparlement request the police and justice department to start registring anti-semitic incidents."

And a statement by the socialist party (with a Maoist background):

Ook hier gaat het vaak om Marokkaanse jongeren. Ik hoor graag van de minister hoe hij verklaart dat juist deze groep voor zoveel problemen zorgt.

" Can the minister please explain why mainly Moroccan youth is causing so much trouble.

VVD (right wing):

Bij real life incidenten zijn het nagenoeg altijd allochtonen van Marokkaanse afkomst

"Real life incidents are almost always caused by ethnic Moroccans.

GroenLinks (left and close to SP, more left than Labour):

Wat mij bijzonder steekt aan voornamelijk de oververtegenwoordiging van Marokkaans-Nederlandse jongeren in gevallen van geweld en belediging van joodse Nederlanders

" What worries me is that Dutch-Moroccan youth is the major part of youth harassing and insulting Dutch jews"

Well, I provided the link to the article which quoted what the Justice Minister said to parliament (and quoted it a few times). If the Parliament is told by the justice minister, that police say there isn't a real rise in anti-semitism in Amsterdam, that's pretty strong evidence.

Here's the link again, from AP:

The number of instances of reported anti-Semitism in Amsterdam rose in 2009 from the previous year, according to government data, from 17 to 41. Discrimination cases on the basis of skin color or country of origin rose from 232 to 336 in the same period, while anti-gay cases rose to 89 from 55.

But those rises may reflect a public campaign encouraging people to report hate crimes. Hirsch Ballin told parliament Thursday police had seen no real increase in anti-Semitism.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100625/ap_ ... decoy_jews

As for general anti-semitisism in Netherlands, the Chief Rabbi of Netherlands says that education is the issue and that it is wrong to think only Muslims commit out the attacks:

Dutch chief rabbi calls for lessons against anti-Semitism
By JONAH MANDEL
06/29/2010 03:34

“The main problem relating to anti-Semitism is the lack of education.”

A Dutch police initiative to go undercover as Jews to combat anti-Semitism will be futile unless it is backed by a greater emphasis on education within the Dutch public, Chief Rabbi of the Netherlands Binyomin Jacobs said on Monday.

“The main problem relating to anti-Semitism is the lack of education,” Jacobs said in a statement. “Today, there are many schools which simply skip the lessons relating to World War II and the Holocaust, since many teachers and principals fear a negative reaction from pupils who are from Muslim backgrounds.”


“It is too easy, however, to blame the Muslim community, when I have witnessed Dutch non-Muslim youngsters also shouting at me in the street,” Jacobs added.

Jacobs also stressed that alongside the rising anti- Semitism in the Netherlands, “there are many Dutch people who openly sympathize with the Jewish People.”

While noting that all new initiatives to combat anti- Semitism were welcome, Jacob recommended that the Dutch national and local governments “organize rabbis or volunteers from the Jewish community to visit schools so that the students will be able to meet us and talk to us.”

http://www.jpost.com/International/Arti ... ?id=179839

So, while some Dutch are openly pro-Jews, others are anti-semites. And it is down to poor education.


Crime is generally low in the Netherlands, with 8 prisons closing, and the the anti-semitic attacks are swamped by other types of attacks - eg racist or homophobic attacks.

It really does appear that there is a racist exaggeration going on by some Dutch people that isn't matched by the actual evidence. In that it is a classic loon argument - a lot of noise and little substance.

Cheers,
Shafique

Crime is generally low in the Netherlands, with 8 prisons closing, and the the anti-semitic attacks are swamped by other types of attacks - eg racist or homophobic attacks.

Take it easy on our vertically challenged friend, FD.

It has been explained to our friend with poor reading comprehension, several times, that anti-Semitic attacks are often not classified as anti-Semitic incidences, but under discrimination or racism.

Apparently he believes by 'outdumbing' his opponents, he'll 'win' the debate because everyone else will grow tired of explaining something that requires no explanation.

Seriously, snowball. What didn't you understand from FD's quotes?

Antisemitic incidents rose with 55% to 167 incidents. The parliament noticed that the police don't register anti-Semitic incidents, only discrimination. Th parliament request the police and justice department to start registering anti-Semitic incidents."

Mumbling on about the reported incidences of anti-Semitic attacks after you were informed that the true figure of reported cases is much higher only makes you look foolish.

Compare the subsizing by the Dutch government of mosques (including those calling infidel children during a school trip dogs), Islamic schools (including those saying that teaching about the holocaust is haram) and school trips to Saudi with this:

Morocco defends expulsion of Christian workers

Morocco says it will take a tough line on proselytism - seeking converts from another religion - two days after it expelled 20 Christian workers.
The expelled Christians had run a children's home called Village of Hope near the town of Ain Leuh in the Middle Atlas mountains.
The home housed 33 children who, it is claimed, would otherwise have been abandoned.