Congrats Egypt

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Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
Mohammed Morsi of muslim brotherhood is the leader of Egypt now.. Well done to the Egyptians..

dubai-politics-talk/will-egypt-follow-tunisia-t45136-105.html
In memory of our member mahmoud04! I wonder if he still reads.. Meanwhile the military gave enough nightmare,didn't it!.. It's over now, egypt will move fast to transform itself at last. Congrats again.

Berrin
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
A very interesting result.. will be fascinating to see how this plays out, especially with the military.

But congratulations to the Egyptians for having a relatively peaceful election - and the people have now spoken

Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
Religion and government together... it would scare me, but, I'm not Egyptian and it wasn't my vote. Let's see what happens...

Se.xual harassment of women was a problem in Egypt before, but since the revolution it has increased and it seems to be used as a tool to suppress women during this revolutionary time. If men want to revolutionize their country, why can't their women folk who make up the other 50% of the society participate with them? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... -assaulted
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
It doesn't seem Copts will be celebrating. I'm sure they're quite disappointed the Muslim Brotherhood candidate became president:

As Egypt's presidential elections come to a close, with the Brotherhood claiming presidential victory, the future of Egypt's indigenous Christians, the Copts, looks bleak.

Earlier, after the first presidential elections of May 23-24, any number of Islamists denounced them, bemoaning that it was the Copts who were responsible for the secularist candidate Ahmed Shafiq's good showing.

Even though Shafiq is a "remnant" of the Mubarak regime, which Copts suffered under, he is widely seen as the much lesser of two evils. As one Copt put it: "What did they want us to do? Whoever says that supporting Shafiq is a crime against the 25 January Revolution, we ask him to advise us whom to vote for? The sea is in front of us and the Islamists are behind us."

Regardless, Abu Ismail, the Salafi presidential candidate who was disqualified, expressed "great disappointment" in "our Coptic brethren," saying that "I do not understand why the Copts so adamantly voted for Ahmed Shafiq," portraying it as some sort of conspiracy between the Copts, the old regime, and even Israel: "Exactly what relationship and benefit do the Copts have with the old regime?"

Tarek al-Zomor, a prominent figure of the Gama'a al-Islamiyya—the terrorist organization that slaughtered some 60 European tourists during the Luxor Massacre—"demanded an apology from the Copts" for voting for Shafiq, threatening that "this was a fatal error."

To an extent, of course, Islamist attacks on Copts were due less to Coptic votes for Shafiq, and had more to do with the usual animosity for Christians—an animosity that seems to seek any excuse to attack them. By virtue of their greater numbers, many more Muslims did in fact vote for Shafiq than did Christians; even the Islamic Sufi Council of Egypt expressed its support for Shafiq instead of for the Muslim Brotherhood's candidate who advocates Islamic Sharia law.

Realizing that threats—with which Copts are well acquainted—would not prevent Christians from voting for the secular candidate, in a campaign that borders on the comical if not absurd, Islamists began imploring the Copts to vote for the Brotherhood's Morsi—who some say vows to return the Copts to bondage. Islamist kingpin Yusuf al-Qaradawi himself called on politically-active Muslims to go and meet with the Copts and "explain to them" how they have nothing to fear from an Islamist president, and convincing them that "Shafiq will be of no use to you."

Most adamant was popular TV personality Muhammad Hassan, a cleric who appeared several times assuring Copts that they have "nothing to fear from the application of Sharia," which he portrayed as the best guarantor for their safety and freedom. A day before the elections, Hassan implored the Copts "to elect Sharia and vote for Dr. Muhammad Morsi, promising them peace and security, and that they would live in prosperity under Sharia law."

Sheikh Muhammad Hassan is, incidentally, the same cleric who says Islam forbids Muslims from smiling to infidels—except whenever Muslims need to win them over. One week before he began beseeching Copts to vote for Sharia, he was in Saudi Arabia making disparaging comments about "those who say Allah has a son," the Koran's condemnatory language for Christians.

What does all this mean? For long, the various Egyptian regimes and Islamist organizations have downplayed the numbers and significance of the nation's Christians, the Copts, sometimes saying they amount to as few as 5% of the total population—a statistic which many Western resources quote without hesitation. Others, however—some pointing to the Coptic Orthodox Church's birth and death registry—say Egypt's Copts amount to up to 20% of the total population. Based on the Islamist response to the first presidential elections, such a figure may not be so farfetched.

Either way, Copts constitute the largest Christian bloc in the Middle East—a circumstance that has other implications. As seen during the presidential elections, large numbers of Christians may help stave off, or balance out, the Islamization of Egypt.

But if Egypt's government does go Islamist—and early presidential elections indicate it is—fears of persecution on a grand scale become legitimate precisely because of the Copts' large numbers, which will work against them under an Islamist regime: millions of powerless Christians will be seen as troublesome and unwelcome infidel enemies, now not just by "extremists," but by the government as well—which, as history teaches (e.g., millions of Christian Armenians under Muslim Turks) is often the first step to genocide.


http://www.raymondibrahim.com/11891/egy ... s-vs-copts

So it looks like the Copts voted for the other guy in overwhelming numbers - at least according to Raymond Ibrahim and the Islamists he quotes.

Anyone have countervailing evidence?
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
kanelli wrote:Religion and government together... it would scare me, but, I'm not Egyptian and it wasn't my vote. Let's see what happens...


As I said, interesting to watch.

MB have toned down their rhetoric in the campaign, and have backed down on the threats to ban bikinis etc that one or two vocal members talked about.. but now the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

You can see that the resident anti-Muslims are getting agitated.. let's see whether 'Islamophobe cash-cow' Ibrahim is proved right or not. There is a first time for everything, after all. :D

Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
I simply reported an article saying (and quoting Islamists also saying) Egyptian Copts overwhelming supported the other person running for president.

Do you agree or disagree?

Do you have countervailing evidence - yes or no?
rayznack
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
Of course the Copts wouldn't be voting for the Muslim Brotherhood.
kanelli
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
kanelli wrote:Religion and government together... it would scare me

I don't see why it should be scary, Politics(Democracy) and Religion are technologies... Please see the last video on this link..:)
dubai-politics-talk/democracy-the-opposite-islam-t49599.html
Berrin
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
Well, now it is not theory any more - actions will speak louder than rhetoric.

As I said, it remains to be seen whether Ibrahim's prediction of a slide into persecution of Copts will become reality:

But if Egypt's government does go Islamist—and early presidential elections indicate it is—fears of persecution on a grand scale become legitimate precisely because of the Copts' large numbers, which will work against them under an Islamist regime: millions of powerless Christians will be seen as troublesome and unwelcome infidel enemies, now not just by "extremists," but by the government as well—which, as history teaches (e.g., millions of Christian Armenians under Muslim Turks) is often the first step to genocide.


I don't know - perhaps he will be proved right this time round. Can't be fairer than that.

On the request for 'countervailing evidence' - how about this from Reuters:

Image

Fatten, an Egyptian Coptic Christian woman supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood holds up a Koran during a rally in Cairo

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/multimedia/pictures/detail.dot?mediaInode=5c8c03c2-37a4-479d-8921-2e627da90460

;)

ETA:
Copts voting for Mursi!

I woke up to a phone from a friend who lives in Australia. He is a Copt and our families have had very strong ties for the past 40 years. After talking for a while about past memories and the situation in Egypt, he told me he does not want Ahmed Shafiq to win the presidential elections because he is a representative of the old regime.

He then took me by surprise when he told me that his relative in Egypt actually voted for the Muslim Brotherhood candidate Mohammed Mursi. In fact, he told me that many Copts he knows are also going to vote for Mursi because they believe that he will punish the remnants of the former regime for the way they oppressed and impoverished Egyptians while they enjoyed absolute power and kept accumulating wealth.
...
Despite the general fear of Islamist rule, my Coptic friend decided to give Islamists a chance. If they fail to rule justly, the revolution will continue and if they fare well, then Egypt will benefit. The most important thing is for us to steer clear of the former regime and military rule.

I do hope my friend is right because otherwise we would be escaping from a military dictatorship to a religious one.

http://english.alarabiya.net/views/2012 ... 20212.html

QED

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
Some Copts likely did vote for the Muslim Brotherhood if they thought there was more danger in having a former Mubarak regime candidate in office than having an Islamic government, but I'm sure that many Copts do worry about living under an Islamic government. I hope that those Copts who did vote for the Muslim Brotherhood don't regret how they voted later.

Berrin, let me give you an example - what if my country had a Catholic government voted in? Abortions are banned, birth control is banned, hospitals must treat patients according Catholic principles, hom.os.ex.uality is banned, all schools must start teaching Catholicism, all media and all institutions must comply and report according to Catholic principles, other religious groups must be made aware that Canada is ruled by a Catholic government and it shall be the dominant religion of the country, laws are changed to reflect Catholic principles, immigration laws are changed to ensure that Catholicism remains dominant. The list could go on.

I am aware that I have a different perspective because I am from Canada where everyone comes from somewhere else and for the most part we are tolerant and not fear-mongering about other groups of people. Our societal views are reflected in our secular laws and governance, which allows most citizens to live freely and happily under a more fair concept of human rights, no matter what race, ethnicity, religion, gender, se.xual orientation etc.
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
I agree kanelli, I just posted the last bit of the article above as an edit.. but let me repeat it here:


Despite the general fear of Islamist rule, my Coptic friend decided to give Islamists a chance. If they fail to rule justly, the revolution will continue and if they fare well, then Egypt will benefit. The most important thing is for us to steer clear of the former regime and military rule.

I do hope my friend is right because otherwise we would be escaping from a military dictatorship to a religious one.


Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
Shaf, I edited my original post to bring up the escalating incidences of se.xual molestation and harassment of women in public during the revolution. It is a worrying sign for me, as I was hoping that Egyptian women would be able sieze upon the moment of revolution to assert their rights as well and vote in who they feel represents their interests well. After all, they are 50% of the population and have every right to be visible and vocal. Seems some want to suppress that and use dis.gusting means to do so. :(
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
^Weren't some of the incidents by the police/army? The incident with the woman being stamped on was condemned by pretty much all the political parties IIRC. So wouldn't the concern of these incidents be more an issue for a vote for Shafiq (i.e. because he's associated with the Mubarak regime?)

I don't think there is anything in Muslim Brotherhood views of women that says it is ok to s.exually molest women, or harrass them. Indeed the photo I posted above is of a Copt woman at a pro-MB demonstration.

Let's see what the new government does in terms of religious minorities and women - I hope they don't live down to people's fears of them.

Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 24, 2012
Shafique wrote:As I said, it remains to be seen whether Ibrahim's prediction of a slide into persecution of Copts will become reality:

Why should the copts be persecuted?.. Copts or say jews and christians during Ottoman empire were ruled in millet system. They were able to live in coexistance without racist,discriminative attitude towards one another, as Islam was embracing the book of people all together..

Splitting empires into nation league states came as a solution to the European culture of racist/discriminative tradition. For example in middleages of Europe, Christians would not allow jews into universities, not let them engage in agricultural work, they couldn't be government officers, military service man etc.., this is one of the reasons why jews became so good at trading goods and money hence becoming good at banking and financial services business.

Now compare this christian attitude to the muslim Umayyad rule in Spain, jews were enjoying life to their full potential, it's due to this effect that everytime they had troubled with christians, they would often flee to the ottoman empire and call the help of sultans..

Now when it comes to Armenians; Ottoman empire was pushed into first world war even though they were neutral, cause it wasn't really their war, It was judeo/christian European agreement war.. Brits pushed ottomans to align themselves with Germans.. Why? becuse they were the main empires in the way of establishing these nations states.. Ottomans in particular had to be destroyed for lawless, stateless ME so that Israel could be accomodated there as a legal state. To realize this of course they were gonna cause war against Ottomans and make them loosers in order to occupy lands.

After ottoman empires' destruction, all its millets became stateless without a ruling body while Brits were organising the borders for them. say Armenia for Armenians, jews for Israel, Greeks were for Greece and Arabs were into many nations...

To move ottoman armenians back to their new country.. like many European leaders of the war era was, zionists collobarated with allies for an appointment of a new single party regime in Turkey(Committee of Union and Progress party) that also started to behave like fascist hitler and musolini. As a said earlier, these new roles were all a tailor made to suit each country.All regimes of Europe were behaving in the same fashion. But contrast this fascist acting Turks to the peaceful existance in ottoman times.. what a difference eh? So armenians too had to be expelled, forced to emigration..For this to happen,allies had also collobarated with fascist nationalist armenian gang band leaders given them the role to incite the feelings of armenians promising them a new land, while playing against the feeling of Turks for nationalist vein..Ottoman Turks were being destroyed just as German Empire and its people were.. so allies got everyone, each side involved in clash and fights,eventually driving armenians out.. This was the allies implemented senario played really well by everyone at all times.. Of course like many ethnicities suffered in Europe due to forced expulsions, Armenians and Turks suffered all together. Thousands of people from both sides died as a result of fights, flight,torment,epidemics, starvation, diseases,cold weather conditions,underdeveloped roads/transport systems etc.

This is why I cannot call deaths in world wars as the holocaust of jews only, but the holocaust of all nations from Europe into ME.. Both world wars were great destruction of European societies.. Not particular to Jews or Armenians but everbody be it on etnic or religious grounds.. I now hope that with the downfall of European implemented muslim/islam hostile (but jewish friendly) regimes to accomadate Israel gets toppled all together and once more people learn to live in coexistance again together..

It woun't be easy but is the work of politicians isn't it? That's why they get paid for...

--- Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:02 am ---

Morsi salutes the martyrs: I wouldn't be here today as first freely elected prez without the sacrifices of the martyrs and injured...
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 25, 2012
Shaf, if you read more about women in Egypt you will see the problem has existed for a while and increased when women stepped out to protest along with the men during the revolution. There is no one political affiliation isolated as the main offenders.
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 25, 2012
We've got some people on this forum with some pretty extreme views. :roll:
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 25, 2012
^ Quote one of these "extremist's" posts.
rayznack
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 25, 2012
^How about

rayznack when he was 'event horizon' wrote:
Peace with Islam and Muslims is impossible. The only time Muslims seek peace is when they need to reload.


philosophy-dubai/most-extreme-religous-fanatic-here-t41961-30.html#p341839

It was this aspect of your posts that got you and the fellow anti-Muslims banned.

Cheers,

Shafique
shafique
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 25, 2012
We've got some people on this forum with some pretty extreme views.


Indeed, we have some posters with extremist views - including one or two who believe Jews are segregationist and believe themselves superior to non-Jews (a classic Nazi libel was to claim "chosen one" meant superior to non-Jews, which has been repeated on the forum by one of the Antisemites).



Berrin wrote:]Jews created Hitler
rayznack
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 25, 2012
^Shame that your delusions and fantasies about other posters are as credible as your views about Islam and Muslims.

But hey, you are trying hard this time round to convince others that you're views of others is correct. Perhaps you'll have better luck this time. However, if you continue to rely on innuendo and spin (and not give any actual quotes/links) you're bound to fail. Again.

Note that your hatred of Muslims and Islam is quite real - and the quote above is damning. Your projection of your hatred onto others only exists in your mind, not reality.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 25, 2012
European wrote:The world according to Berrin.
No, not according to me ,according to the actual history of the world that is not told us like I tell you..

But did you know that American Roosevelt did the same thing as Hitler regime
by ordering 120,000 Americans of Japanese descent living on the West Coast interned in concentration camps. In March 1942 Roosevelt accused them of being "security risks." The Japanese men, women and children were imprisoned behind barbed wire fences and armed guard towers in the blazing hot desert.

http://www.stormfront.org/truth_at_last/holocaust.htm

In Canada, similar evacuation orders were established. Nearly 23,000 Nikkei, or Canadians of Japanese descent, were sent to camps in British Columbia. It was the greatest mass movement in the history of Canada.

Though families were generally kept together in the United States, Canada sent male evacuees to work in road camps or on sugar beet projects. Women and children Nikkei were forced to move to six inner British Columbia towns.


Now don't go on about accusing me using white supremist web site for feeding info..
I can link you to the same info from another source..
Read more: Japanese Internment in World War II — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/spot/internme ... z1yn5b1Tek

There you go, Japanese empire also had to be destroyed for the new nation states.. The smaller the nations, the easier it is for the bankers of the world to rule them, isn't it? (divide and rule)...
Berrin
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 25, 2012
^And you could argue that the first concentration camps were those used by the British against the Boers in South Africa (and where many died).

However Berrin, there's a major distinction between the US internment camps of Japanese Americans etc in the US and the Nazi camps.

The subjugation of conquered nations is a valid discussion point, however I feel this is not the right thread.

Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: Congrats Egypt Jun 25, 2012
:) not sure but I am reading on brother. It certainly makes very very interesting reading in order to picture the cold world order:)

I will have to look into south african concentration camps,segregation and the reasons for apartheid regime there, but the following is very interesting..
"The Jewish Question is for me neither a social question nor a religious question ... it is a national question."
This is a colonial doctrine. Here too, the lucid Theodore Herzl does not hide his objectives. The first step is to set up a "Charter Company" under the protection of England, or any other power, as a stepping stone toward the formation of "the Jewish State." That is why he called on the master of this type of operation, the colonial trafficker, Cecil Rhodes, who used his Charter Company to carve out of South Africa a subsidiary bearing his name: Rhodesia.
Theodore Herzl wrote him on January 11, 1902:
"Please send me a letter stating that you have examined my program and that you approve it. You may be wondering why I am calling on you, Mr. Rhodes. It is because my program is a political program."

SOURCE: Herzl, "Tagebuch," Vol. III, p. 105.

http://radioislam.org/islam/english/boo ... y/main.htm

It's amazing how the same name "concentration camp" used as different description all around the world.. such as refugee camp, detainee camp, internment camp etc. But nevertheless they all had the same objective tho.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... uth_Africa

Source: Israel SHAHAK, "Racism and the State of Israel", from p. 152.

The overall result is as follows : A million and a half Palestinians having been driven off the land, "jewish land", (as the people of the "National Jewish Fund" call it), 6.5% in 1947, today represents more than 93% of Palestine (75% to the State and 14 % to the National Fund.)

It is noteworthy (and significant) that the consequences of this operation were summarized at an early stage in the newspaper of the Afrikaners of South Africa, "Die Transvaler", an expert in matters of racial discrimination (apartheid):

"What is the difference between the way in which the Jewish people struggles to remain what it is in the midst of a non-Jewish population, and the way the Afrikaners try to stay what they are?"

Source: Henry Katzew, "South Africa: a Country Without Friends", quoted by R. Stevens (Zionism, South Africa and Apartheid).

The same system of "apartheid" manifests itself in the status of the individual as it does in the appropriation of land. The "autonomy" which the Israelis want to grant the Palestinians is the equivalent of the "homelands" for the blacks in South Africa.

Analyzing the consequences of the law of "return", Klein asks the question:

"If the Jewish people are easily the most numerous in the State of Israel, by the same token, one can still say that the entire population of the State of Israel is not Jewish, as the country has a sizeable non-Jewish minority, mainly Arab and Druze. The question which must be asked is to what extent the existence of a Law of Return which favorizes the immigration of one part of the population (defined by its religious and ethnic adherence), cannot be regarded as discriminatory."

Source: Claude Klein, Director of the Institute of Comparative Law of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. "The Jewish Character of the State of Israel", Ed. Cujas, Paris 1977, p. 33.

http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english ... hor2103247

Hitlerism was a human catastrophe which, unfortunately, had a precedent in the policy applied over five centuries by the European colonialists to "colored people". What Hitler did to white people, they did to the American Indians, of which they killed [75%] (also through forced labor and epidemics, even more than through massacres); just as they did to the Africans, of which they deported between 10 and 20 million, which means that Africa was robbed of 100 to 200 million of its inhabitants since ten people had to be killed for one to be taken alive during capture by the slave-dealers.

The myth suited everybody : to speak of the "greatest genocide in history" was for the Western colonialists to have their own crimes forgotten (the decimation of the American Indians and the African slave-trade), as it was a way for Stalin to mask his own ferocious repressions.

http://radioislam.org/islam/english/boo ... hor2106731

The Boer war in south africa...
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p14_Weber.html


.
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