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Still counting the deaths from the convert Jihad against the russians....

So, you've reached 7 actual terrorists then?

Bravo.

When you do give your updated count, can you list the new ones (above the 6 already given, so I can check your figures) - I've given you the source for my 232 so you can re-count.

Cheers,
Shafique

26+116+12

update:

the network was responsible for three explosions in Krasnodar in August 2003, in which three people were killed and 30 wounded

3 more

(Although Wikipedia claims 4 were killed in the attack)

an explosion in the Moscow metro in February 2004, in which 40 were killed and 134 wounded;

40 more

and an explosion in the Moscow metro in August 2004, in which 10 were killed and 51 wounded.

10 more

plus, after researching the attacks where casualties aren't provided in the article:

The investigation also credited the Karachai Jamaat with three explosions at bus stops in Voronezh and with planting bombs on passenger trains in Mineralnye Vody in 2004 and 2005, as a result of which several hundred people were killed or injured.

An explosion hit a bus stop in the Russian city of Voronezh this morning, wounding two people one week after a blast at a bus stop in the city killed one person, a local security official said.


Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/200 ... z0XAbuAYTW

1 more

December 5, 2003: Forty people are killed and more than 100 injured when a bomb explodes on a passenger train traveling between Kislovodsk and Mineralnye Vody in southern Russia.

Possibly referring to the bombing of trains in Mineralnye Vody, but the article says the bombings occurred in 2004 and 2005. I'll exclude this from the count, for now.

Kipkeyev allegedly organized the August 2004 bombing of the Rizhskaya metro station in Moscow, which was carried out by a female suicide bomber. Kipkeyev, who was on site to monitor his subordinate's work, was killed in the blast.

The suicide bombing, which was carried out by members of the convert Jihad terror group, murdered ten civilians plus two Jihadists.

10 more

26+116+12+3+40+10+1+10

The count currently stands at 218 civilians murdered by Jihad convert terrorists and hundreds more wounded.

Looks like yet another convert to Islam who became a suicide bomber:

June 6-11, 2000 - Chechnya experienced its first suicide bombings when two Chechen girls, 22-year old Khava Barayeva and 16-year-old Luiza Magomadova, and the former Russian prisoner of war and Islam convert Djabrail Sergeyev (Sergey Dimitriyev) attacked separate checkpoints of Russian paramilitary police in the Chechen capital Grozny and in the village of Alkhan-Yurt with two car bombs, killing at least four OMON troops (25 Russians were killed according to rebels).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_suicide_attacks

Please humour me and present your updated count of convert terrorists, numbers killed and numbers injured.

Here's mine again:

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Total killed by these: 267
Total reported injured :88


This excludes 'suspected' terrorist attacks and anyone reportedly killed in cross-fire.

The list of terror acts by the 'Christian Al-Qaeda' as they are sometimes called, is here:
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... LFT_tl.htm

So, it appears you are still behind on the numbers killed front (I reserve the right to examine the numbers you give).

Note that if we include those indirectly killed, then I'll have to add Tony Blair's figures (which I under-estimated at 10,000) - but I'd rather not, let's leave Tony and indirect killings out!


Why the reluctance to count terrorists eh?

Cheers,
Shafique

Tony Blair is not a religious fanatic waging war based on the texts and teachings of his new religion.

You seemed to have had a problem with including the DC snipers because they were not waging jihad warfare - rather, they were nut jobs who happened to be Muslim converts. I agreed and I expressed this same issue a long time prior to any complaint you later made.

But hey, just to humor me, what about Tony Blair do you think makes him a religious fanatic? His opposition to the death penalty? Support of gay marriage? I'm curious to know. I've never heard someone make that claim of him (besides someone desperate to obscure issues of extremism and conversions in Islam).

Let me know how many converts to other religions have become suicide bombings as well. It seems like only converts to Islam become suicide bombings - which would be a sign of their fanaticism. Strangely, Hindu converts, Christian converts, etc, just aren't as fanatical as Muslim converts are.

Are you seriously having trouble counting beyond 6 actual convert terrorists??

It is a bit late in the day to change the parameters - I gave you ample time at the start and agreed to your criteria that we count terrorists.

So, let me repeat,

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Total killed by these: 267
Total reported injured :88


This excludes 'suspected' terrorist attacks and anyone reportedly killed in cross-fire.

The list of terror acts by the 'Christian Al-Qaeda' as they are sometimes called, is here:
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... LFT_tl.htm

What is your count now? (Note I'm excluding Tony Blair in the above - if you want to include indirect killings, then I'll include his indirect killings - but I'd rather exclude all indirect killings as they are subjective)

Cheers,
Shafique

It is a bit late in the day to change the parameters - I gave you ample time at the start and agreed to your criteria that we count terrorists.

I've never changed the parameters. I was quite clear from the beginning that converts to other religions who carried out violent attacks/engaged in terrorism referred to those individuals who were motivated by the texts and teachings of their religion to do so. In other words, they were religious fundamentalists.

Do you have any reason to suspect that Tony Blair is a religious fundamentalist?

Oh, and how many suicide bombings have converts to other religions carried out?

I'm excluding Tony Blair from my figures - I'm only going to include him if you insist on counting those who kill indirectly - and even then, I'll keep the figures separate. As I also said, now asking for numbers of suicide bombers who are converts is moving the goalposts - but if you are interested in this new breakdown - you can go ahead and count. I could counter and say count the number of children killed by the Christian Converts and compare it with the numbers of children in your list - but that is changing the goalposts after the event.

Please try and keep up.

Now, can we have your numbers?

Mine are:

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Total killed by these: 267
Total reported injured :88



Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique, are you having difficulty with the question?

In what way is Tony Blair a religious fundamentalist and the DC snipers are not?

Not avoiding any questions - your theory was that Islam caused more converts to resort to terrorism than any other religion. We agreed to test your theory by looking at the stats of terrorists who were converts to Islam and compare that with terrorists who converted from other religions.

Tony Blair is a convert to Catholicism and joined in a war which Bush said 'God directed me' to end the tyranny in Iraq.

Blair's actions indirectly led to the death of at least tens of thousands of civilians.

I made it clear that intentions are subjective and we should rather count bodies - whatever the intentions, killing civilians is an act decent people condemn (but you don't, when it is white Jews doing the killing, it appears).


So, Tony Blair is a convert and also indirectly was responsible for the deaths of many civilians. He is a worse criminal than Bin Laden, for example, because his actions have led to more civilians dying and he should be indicted for war crimes. He is a criminal, just like Bin Laden and both are convinced they are doing God's work.

Justifying the killing of innocents as something that could not be avoided is my definition of a religious fanatic - but I guess you will make excuses for Blair whilst condemning Bin Laden - but we've established you have a problem with Islam and want to ignore statistics.

So, will you now give us your numbers?

Cheers,
Shafique

Since October 2008, five of the Minnesotans who left have died. A sixth man, a Muslim convert from Minneapolis, also is thought to have been killed.

http://www.startribune.com/local/705533 ... c:_Yyc:aUU

Another convert to Islam killed in international jihad...

Not avoiding any questions - your theory was that Islam caused more converts to resort to terrorism than any other religion.

My theory is that Islam produces more violent *religious* extremists than other religions. That theory is still held up. In fact, it's only been reinforced.

Tony Blair is a convert to Catholicism and joined in a war which Bush said 'God directed me' to end the tyranny in Iraq.

Still spreading that lie? According to Bush, he never claimed that God told him to attack Iraq. But in any event, what does that have to do with Tony Blair?

Blair's actions indirectly led to the death of at least tens of thousands of civilians.

What does that have to do with waging war for religious reasons?

So, Tony Blair is a convert and also indirectly was responsible for the deaths of many civilians.

Why don't you provide a figure for how many civilians the British military has killed in Iraq.

He is a criminal, just like Bin Laden and both are convinced they are doing God's work.

Yeah, sure. Tony Blair is a religious extremist just like Osama bin Laden. Do you have any other delusional fantasies you would like to share with me?

Oh, and I still have not seen an answer. How is Blair a religious extremist and the DC snipers are not?

Thanks for sharing your views. Very fascinating, but let us compare stats.

Now what was your count?

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, now time to add the statistics from Africa.

Let us start with Uganda's Lords Resistance Army.

This is an army that is made up exclusively of converts to a religion/cult other than Islam (and part of their belief system is based on the Bible - but hardly what I would call 'Christian' unless one goes back to Medieval Christianity).

The stats and atrocities are horrific.

But let us start and establish that they are indeed 1. converts and 2. motivated by religion.

This is a good academic paper on the LRA:

http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/0/5/5/pages100558/p100558-1.php

he Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) is a non-state armed group that directs its violence, for the most part, against the civilian population of northern Uganda. The LRA commits massacres and atrocities, and abducts children, forcing them to become soldiers. An estimated 25,000 to 30,000 children have been abducted since 1987 (UNICEF, 2005; USAID, 2005). Some have escaped; others have died through violence, disease, hunger, and exhaustion. Children now constitute between 80 and 90 per cent 3 of the estimated 500 to 1,000 4 remaining LRA fighters. In the past 19 years, the fighting has killed thousands of people and displaced close to 1.3 million within northern Uganda. Many more are maimed and tortured in displays of the LRA’s strength (Small Arms Survey, forthcoming). The LRA has been characterised variously as a brutal cult and a ‘mad’ terrorist organisation.

...
A distinguishing feature of the LRA is that it substitutes a powerful spiritualism—backed up by extreme violence—for political or material incentives for its members.

...
The LRA was known as the Lord’s Army from around late 1987, and the Ugandan People’s Democratic Christian Army (UPDCA) from mid-1988. The movement was renamed the Lord’s Resistance Army in the early 1990s.

Now, the numbers of LRA fighters vary from 500 to over 2000 - so it may be prudent to take the lowest number for our stats.

There is no doubt that these guys are terrorists and that they are motivated for some weird spiritual reason - they aren't separatists, for example. Perhaps eh will come up with some other reason to not include them - but I can't see why they should be excluded.

However, for the numbers killed in the period 2001 to 2009, we have a number of documented events that we can refer to, and I'll use these to add to my list of non-Muslim convert terrorist victims.

One example is the 2008 Christmas massacre when over 400 (HRW says over 600) people were hacked to death:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chris ... res_(Congo)

I'll use the figure of 400 killed and conservatively add only 100 terrorists to my count. Let us say that another 300, say were injured.

Therefore my count is (after only adding the 2008 LRA massacres):

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 332
Total killed by these: 647
Total reported injured :388


eh's figures are looking pretty anaemic in comparison!

Cheers,
Shafique

I see kidnapping and child soldiers (similar to the Sudan's kidnapping of children and using them as child soldiers) but that is not necessarily conversions. Anyways, Africa should be interesting as you have said. As many people who have been killed by the LRA, those casualties must be dwarfed in comparison to the Muslims and non Muslims killed by child soldiers in the Sudan.

event horizon wrote:I see kidnapping and child soldiers (similar to the Sudan's kidnapping of children and using them as child soldiers) but that is not necessarily conversions. Anyways, Africa should be interesting as you have said. As many people who have been killed by the LRA, those casualties must be dwarfed in comparison to the Muslims and non Muslims killed by child soldiers in the Sudan.

As I said, I'm happy to compare the numbers kidnapped by the LRA vs the reports of child kidnapping in Sudan - but that is another thread, and another opportunity for you to test out your beliefs against statistics.

In the meantime, this thread is about stats, so let me repeat my updated count (and we haven't really begun to plumb the depths of the LRA atrocities yet):


Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 332
Total killed by these: 647
Total reported injured :388

Has your count of actual terrorists reached 10 yet?

Cheers,
Shafique

Just to clarify:

I am going to exclude the kidnapped and coerced children from the counts - that is why I'm only going to count a maximum of 500 actual LRA terrorists and why thus far only 100 have been added to my total.

I should really add the kidnapped children to the list of victims, but as I excluded the NLFT's abductees from my list, I'll have to stick to the numbers killed and injured.

We are still waiting for your updated count.

The LRA are clearly terrorists and are religiously motivated (albeit the 'religion' is only partly based on Christianity and is more like a cult) - their atrocities are clearly terrorist acts. These terrorists joined a cult and by definition converted from previous beliefs to the beliefs of this cult.

By your own criteria, we are counting terrorists who are converts to Islam and comparing them with converts to other religions. I wasn't aware of Sudanese converts terrorising populations - perhaps you have some references?

Also, I think you are completely mistaken if you believe the reported child abductions in Sudan 'dwarf' the atrocities and abductions of the LRA (again you seem to have a problem distinguishing facts/stats from hype) - but that is a moot point as we are counting converts here. You can start a new thread to compare the two and I'll provide the LRA stats for you.

Cheers,
Shafique

I am going to exclude the kidnapped and coerced children from the counts - that is why I'm only going to count a maximum of 500 actual LRA terrorists and why thus far only 100 have been added to my total.

Let me know when you have an article that says people are converting and joining the LRA - which you say are a cult. Personally, I think it's a bit of a stretch. Unlike Muslim terrorist organizations, who justify their attacks through the teachings and doctrines of mainstream Islam and are supported by large percentages of Muslims across the globe, the LRA is some weird cult most people have not heard about and are not waging warfare by any teaching of mainstream Christianity that I am aware of. (although I'm guessing you'll chime in and pontificate on Christian theology any minute now.)

It looks like you're back to that quasi Christian group in India that seems to be more leftist/nationalist in ideology than Christian - ie., they seek to establish a 'workers state', etc.

It should speak volumes, however, that violent Muslim converts, on the other hand, aren't illiterate third worlders, but educated Westerners who are motivated by the texts and teachings of Islam to wage jihad warfare against unbelievers.

You really should do your own research eh-oh, I really can't continue to spoon feed you information!

The LRA are clearly a cult and the members who subscribe to their core beliefs converted to that cult's religion (which aims to set up a theocracy based on the Biblical 10 commandments).

Therefore they are convert terrorists who have killed to establish a theocracy. 100% of the criteria you laid down. References have already been given above.

What is your updated count?

Cheers,
Shafique

Let me know when you have real examples of converts to Christianity who become religious militants based on the texts and teachings of Christianity.

I didn't see you updated count? Are you having trouble counting past 6 - surely not!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:Actually, if I am not mistaken, we were comparing all converts to other religions with converts only to Islam.

From pg 2 of this thread.

Note the 'other religions'. LRA meets the criteria set by you eh.

Now, I look forward to your updated stats.

Cheers,
Shafique

Unfortunately, your thread title clashes with the cult you have now selected since you were comparing Christian convert terrorists with Muslim convert terrorists, of which, there have been plenty of Westerners who converted to Islam and became violent extremists.

If you want to include cults (and I'm thinking if I should bother to include Shia cults now) you'll have to start another thread that compares violent religious extremist converts to all other religions with violent religious extremist converts to Islam.

In any event, it appears that your examples of Christian terrorist converts are actually more leftist/nationalist than Christian fundamentalists - they call for a 'workers state' and allow people of all creeds into their ranks.

Do you have any real example, like, say for instance, converts to Christianity who are actual religious fanatics seeking to establish a Christian theocracy (not an alleged Christian theocracy, mind you)?

Pretty weak argument eh-oh, especially as you set the initial parameters.

LRA are converts, and are terrorists and as you said in this thread - the parameters are indeed converts to other religions other than Islam. The LRA are using the Bible and do consider themselves Christians - but to the rest of us they are a cult.

I'm happy to include anyone who converts to Shia Islam and then commits terrorist acts in your count. By extension we should therefore then also include those who become 'born again' Christians and then commit acts of aggression. You can choose - but just need to show that they converted and changed their religious views.

It smells of desperation on your part to want to exclude the LRA's figures - given that the stats has shown that your belief is not based on any evidence (and that you've only been able to count less than 10 actual Muslim convert terrorists and I'm over 300 now).

It is one thing to dispute some parameter I may have set, but to debate with yourself over what parameters you set is a sign of going slightly ga-ga!

That said, why are you so reluctant to give us your count - is it because it hasn't reached 10 yet?

Cheers,
Shafique

I'm happy to include anyone who converts to Shia Islam and then commits terrorist acts in your count. By extension we should therefore then also include those who become 'born again' Christians and then commit acts of aggression. You can choose - but just need to show that they converted and changed their religious views.

Interesting perspective. So you're saying that the members of the LRA aren't exactly bona fide converts but, rather 'born' again types.

If that's the case, they aren't exactly converts from one religion to another and, therefore, are not relevant in this count.

Nope LRA are bonafide converts.

If you want to count those joining 'Shia Cults' - these would be born again types, unless they converted from a religion other than Islam. Please try and keep up.

Now what was your count - have you reached 10 actual terrorists yet?

Cheers,
Shafique

If you want to count those joining 'Shia Cults' - these would be born again types, unless they converted from a religion other than Islam. Please try and keep up.

News to me. How are members of the LRA converts but members of messianic shia cults born again types?

I said I'd be ok with you counting converts to Shia 'cults' who then carried out terrorist acts. If they converted from a religion other than Islam, then this is fine and dandy. If they joined from a Muslim background, then they would be the equivalent of 'born again' Christians.

I left the choice up to you - I can't be fairer than that.

The LRA are clearly converts and clearly terrorists. They aren't born-again Christians, but converts to the LRA cause and who want to establish a theocracy based on the Biblical 10 commandments.

So, let me repeat my count:
In the meantime, this thread is about stats, so let me repeat my updated count (and we haven't really begun to plumb the depths of the LRA atrocities yet):

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 332
Total killed by these: 647
Total reported injured :388

Has you count reached 10 yet?