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shafique · Oct 31, 2009

I'm patient and will allow the stats to speak for themselves:

My count (remains) 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)

What is your count?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 31, 2009

Stunned Belgians are starting to get a clearer picture of the Belgian woman identified as a suicide bomber killed in Iraq last month.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4488642.stm

One more Muslim convert suicide bomber - as far as I know, only converts to Islam have blown themselves up and several more converts have been unsuccessful, such as this guy:

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps ... ZO20090130

LONDON (Reuters) - A Muslim convert who tried to carry out a suicide bomb attack on a busy family restaurant in southwest England was jailed for life Friday.

Nicky Reilly, 22, was wounded when a homemade bomb exploded as he tried to assemble it in the toilets of the Giraffe restaurant in Exeter last May. He was arrested as he staggered outside with injuries to his face and hands.

"The offence of attempted murder is aggravated by the fact that it was long-planned, that it had multiple intended victims and was intended to terrorize the population of this country," said Judge David Calvert-Smith

Additionally, one more Muslim convert who shot up a recruiting center in the US:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524139,00.html

Although he did inflict casualties, they were both soldiers (off duty if I am not mistaken), so I will not include these casualties.

and another attack:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 123126.ece

Once again, the victims were in the military and these casualties will not be included - although the violent actions of these converts who were motivated by religion to carry out armed jihad will be included in the tally of Muslim converts who have carried out violent attacks.

shafique · Oct 31, 2009

My count (remains) 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)

What is your latest count?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 31, 2009

My count (remains) 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)

What is your latest count?

I agree that your count - assuming the source you've taken your numbers from is correct, is at 232 terrorists, but how many of those terrorists were left wing nutters?

Certainly many (most?) of the members of the NLFT are secular nationalists rather than religious types, as their own manifesto confirms (despite the spin of BBC articles claiming otherwise).

shafique · Nov 01, 2009

Was my question difficult - your count is around 10 now, so surely you can give us an update. Take off your shoes if you having difficulties counting above 10 :wink:

But seriously - this whole discussion was started because you believed the Fox News headlines were an accurate reflection of reality and I said that if it were so, then the stats would back it up.

As it stands, the stats show that the facts don't match the hype - non-Muslim converts have caused more terror attacks and killed more people than Muslim convert terror attacks.

Your 10 convert terrorists vs the over 200 Christian Convert terrorists speaks volumes (as does your inability thus far to count beyond 6 actual terrorists). You even have had to add to your list of 'kills' events that did not directly involve converts (eg Tunisia).

As I said, it is interesting that when the stats let you down, you revert to the headlines. I guess the irony is lost on you.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Nov 02, 2009

Are you having trouble adding up your count?

I'll happily add them up for you - can you list the additional actual terrorist converts since the last time we had a count?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 02, 2009

Let me know when you have distinguished terror attacks carried out by secular members (and even non Christian members) of the NLFT with the splinter group that allegedly is seeking to create a Christian theocracy.

After all your concern of putting substance over headlines, I wouldn't want anyone to think your conclusions are based on sloppy research.

shafique · Nov 03, 2009

I see you are having problems with your count.

My count is up to date and counted all the Chrisitan converts who killed in futherance of their cause (and were members of the ' National Holy Army') - and further more, my count is an underestimate because I only counted two per incident where 'terrorists' were reported and no number given.

The source of the information was also given - a comprehensive list of all the attacks.

So, when will you add up your latest count?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Nov 08, 2009

Have you conceded defeat, or are you just having difficulty counting beyond 6?

:lol:

What is your updated count?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 08, 2009

What's your updated count taking into consideration that the NFLT has non-Christian and secular members who also carry out terror attacks?

shafique · Nov 08, 2009

shafique wrote:My count (remains) 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)

What is your latest count?

All the ones I've counted are Christian terrorists (and my count is an underestimate) - I've given you the list of terrorist incidents from which I've counted the incidents and you are welcome to recount to check my figures.

So, what is your count?

Cheers
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 08, 2009

I understand you want to believe all of the attacks were carried out by Christian fundamentalists (as opposed to people who happened to be Christian(, but unfortunately BBC headlines do not mesh well with the facts:

]According to the State police sources, community-wise break-up in the NLFT is as follows. Debbarma- 40 per cent, Jamatiya- 30 percent, Reang- 10 per cent, and others- 20 per cent. About 90 per cent of the top ranking NLFT cadres are Christians.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... s/Nlft.htm

So, it's already an established fact that some members of the NLFT aren't even Christian. I guess these high ranking members must not have heard your explanation that because the NLFT has an armed branch called the 'holy army', all the members must therefore be Christian fundamentalists.

Once again, that's also assuming that the NLFT members who are Christians are all fundamentalists, as opposed to a splinter faction. But I can totally understand. Unlike violent Muslim fundamentalists - and there are plenty, you must be very liberal when looking and selecting for Christian terrorist groups. In your case, you must include a group whose own manifesto does not once mention Jesus, Christianity or the New Testament and no where calls for the establishment of a religious theocracy (in fact, the manifesto sounded quite socialistic to me). Let alone that this same group is not even entirely Christian!

But again, what's your update? Are you having difficulty with the question or are you still going to include attacks carried out by non-Christians and secular Christians in your list?

shafique · Nov 08, 2009

As I keep saying, if you disagree with my count - please let me know which of the 232 I counted you disagree with and give us your count of the attacks done by the 'national holy army' rather than those by the breakaway faction (both are terrorists btw).

You should find that your count is higher than mine (as I said, I was being conservative).

But all that said, I keep asking for your updated count - I'm not sure it's reached 10 yet!!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 08, 2009

let me know when you have adjusted your figures to account for non-Christian terror attacks and attacks carried out by secular Christians.

shafique · Nov 08, 2009

My figures only include Christian Convert Terrorists - as I said, you can check and confirm.

What is your count? (Why are you avoiding the question - the last count you gave was only 6 or 7)

I guess that the stats are causing you concern - it's a shock when reality doesn't live up to a 'belief'!!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 08, 2009

My figures only include Christian Convert Terrorists - as I said, you can check and confirm.

How did you arrive at this count???

shafique · Nov 08, 2009

I went through the list, started at one, then went to two etc until I exhausted the list. I told you what I included and excluded.

I understand that whilst you have only got to 6 and are refusing to update your count, you are a bit daunted by going through the hundreds of incidents listed to verify my count, but I thought you wanted to have statistics back up your belief rather than just blindly believe in your view of the world.

Now, what was your count??

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 09, 2009

shafique wrote:I went through the list, started at one, then went to two etc until I exhausted the list. I told you what I included and excluded.

I understand that whilst you have only got to 6 and are refusing to update your count, you are a bit daunted by going through the hundreds of incidents listed to verify my count, but I thought you wanted to have statistics back up your belief rather than just blindly believe in your view of the world.

Now, what was your count??

Cheers,
Shafique

Cool, so we agree you haven't adjusted your numbers to leave out attacks carried out by non-Christians and secular Christians.

Here are some more violent Muslim converts who have carried out Jihad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Khodov#Siege

Took part in the Beslan school massacre (in fact, he was one of six leaders). Not sure how many civilians he raped, tortured and murdered, but I'm sure it was a lot.

Terrrorist Attacks Across Russia

Based on the testimony of three surviving members of the group, called Karachai Jamaat, the investigation believes the network was responsible for three explosions in Krasnodar in August 2003, in which three people were killed and 30 wounded; an explosion in the Moscow metro in February 2004, in which 40 were killed and 134 wounded; and an explosion in the Moscow metro in August 2004, in which 10 were killed and 51 wounded.

The investigation also credited the Karachai Jamaat with three explosions at bus stops in Voronezh and with planting bombs on passenger trains in Mineralnye Vody in 2004 and 2005, as a result of which several hundred people were killed or injured.

.....

Among them were ethnic Ukrainian Vitaly Zagorulko, an officer in Russia's Interior Ministry and a graduate of the Rostov High Militia School, and police colleagues Viktor Semchenko, a Russian, and David Fotov. Another alleged Karachai Jamaat member was a former Russian paratrooper, Yury Menovshchikov, and Russian Army veteran Ivan Manarin, an ethnic Russian. All but Manarin, who is now under arrest, were killed in fighting with federal special forces.

Ukrainian Nikolai Kipkeyev, who rose to the rank of amir, is believed to have been the leader of the Slavic members of the group.

.....

In short, militant Islam may provide Slavic converts a feeling of purpose they find lacking in modern society or in the teachings of traditional Christianity.

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1070836.html

From an article on converts who make up more than half of an Islamist terror group in Russia.

shafique · Nov 09, 2009

I couldn't see either an updated count for you, or any correction to my underestimate of Christian convert terrorists.

I fully understand your reticence to count your numbers - or to back up your contention that my figures are over-estimates (when in fact the opposite is true) - but hey until you update your stats, there's no incentive for me to look for more Christian terrorists (232 is still way ahead the 6 you've counted so far).

Also, I presume you are not counting those who killed not because of Islam - eg the snipers in the US - but I'd hate to presume, I'll wait for you to give us an updated count of how many Muslim converts you've counted so far.

I agree that the Chechens responsible for Beslan were terrorists - but aren't you the one who is arguing that some NLFT terrorists are 'only' separatist terrorists who happen to be Christian converts!!? Please make up your mind. I say just count all the terrorists who happen to be converts and add up which group has produced more.

Thus far, 232 Christians vs around 10 Muslims. We've seen already that this is about right if we count up the violent verses in the Bible vs the Quran (as listed on skepticsannotatedbible) - but I'm still intrigued why you refuse to give your updated count.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 10, 2009

Also, I presume you are not counting those who killed not because of Islam - eg the snipers in the US - but I'd hate to presume,

Please pay attention - I mentioned this long ago that the snipers were probably nutters who happened to be Muslims rather than two converts who became nutjobs because of the texts and teachings of Islam:

Great, which reports do you consider to be 'hype'? I suppose the DC snipers could be the only report that is in the grey. Certainly, all the other cases involve Muslim zealots who were influenced by their interpretation of Islam.

http://www.dubaiforums.com/viewtopic.ph ... rey#303239

but aren't you the one who is arguing that some NLFT terrorists are 'only' separatist terrorists who happen to be Christian converts!!?

Errr, no. I'm arguing that many members of the NLFT are secularists with a leftist/nationalist ideology and there are several high ranking members who aren't even Christian to begin with.

The 'Chechens' on the other hand (and I use that term loosely because a number of the terrorists were foreigners) were all Muslim fundamentalists seeking to establish an Islamic theocracy. Even though Chechnya was part of the Soviet Union and many insurgents were formers soldiers and officers in the Red army, I can't think of a single Chechen insurgent group whose ideology is Marxist-Leninist.

Regardless, we're only discussing two Islamist insurgent groups - including one group that is made up mostly of Muslim converts and has carried out numerous attacks inside Russia and Chechnya.

My updated count will not include the two US snipers because I don't believe they fit the profiles of people who join Islam and become terrorists. They were probably killing people for some other reason and the prosecution never followed up on a jihad inspired motive for the killings.

shafique · Nov 10, 2009

I'll wait for your updated count then.

My count is complete and only contains those terrorist acts carried out by Christian converts and only includes actual terrorist acts, rather than those 'suspected'. They, like the Chechens, were part of the 'National Holy Army'who want to establish a Christian state and were also responsible for converting people forcibly.

Therfore my count remains 232 and is an underestimate - what is your count?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 10, 2009

My count is complete and only contains those terrorist acts carried out by Christian converts

How did you exclude attacks carried out by non-Christian and secular members of the NFLT?

They, like the Chechens, were part of the 'National Holy Army'who want to establish a Christian state and were also responsible for converting people forcibly.

Happy to look at the evidence that the NLFT seeks to establish a Christian theocracy. So far, you have a debunked BBC article and a few dot com websites you've cited. Do you have actual evidence to support your view or are you simply regurgitating BBC spin?

shafique · Nov 10, 2009

The terrorist attacks were carried out by the "National Holy Army" and were undertaken by Christian Converts.

As I've said, my figures are not completely accurate - they are an underestimate - the real number is higher than the 232 I have counted and I've invited you to verify this fact.

But I understand why you don't want to count my figures - you are having trouble giving us your figure which is around 8 or 9 by now.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 10, 2009

The terrorist attacks were carried out by the "National Holy Army" and were undertaken by Christian Converts.

The attacks were carried out by an insurgent group that has non-Christians within its ranks and its manifesto - despite BBC spin, calls for the establishment of a 'workers state'.

shafique · Nov 10, 2009

Sorry, what was your count and what do you think my count should be?

I've challenged you a number of times now to back up your claim that my count is inaccurate (when it is just an underestimate).

All mouth no trousers, yet again.

Is it just because you are embarrassed that despite all your bluster you haven't been able to reach 10 actual terrorists now, whilst I've exceeded 200????

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 11, 2009

It should speak volumes that you're not interested in accuracy, rather, associating any group that is loosely associated with Christianity - including one that calls for a 'workers state' to fall under the category of a Christian fundamentalist movement.

Let me know when you find that reference in the group's manifesto calling for the establishment of a Christian theocracy. The BBC article seems to think it's there, so I'm sure it is. But please, keep on looking.

In the meantime, I'm trying to find out the number of people killed in the terror attacks the article I posted lists but does not provide figures for.

shafique · Nov 11, 2009

Double Yawn.

My figures are an underestimate and is 232 actual terrorists.

Your figures are yet to make an appearance - at the last count you gave, it stood at 6.

Now we just get excuses. Says it all.

(Are you really having trouble counting beyond 6??)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 11, 2009

Are you having trouble finding that statement in the NLFT's manifesto calling for a religious theocracy?

Let me know if you have trouble reading.

shafique · Nov 11, 2009

I'm having absolutely no problems laughing at you lame attempts to divert attention from your count of 6 compared to my under estimate of 232.

Christian Convert Terrorists' intentions don't matter much to those 200+ who were killed by them.

So tell us, please, what is your latest count? (And feel free to check my numbers - you'll find that there are many more than the 232 I've allowed for).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Nov 12, 2009

So, we continue to wait to see whether eh can count beyond 6 actual terrorists and whether his count of Christian Convert terrorists is below 232 or not.

Cheers,
Shafique

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