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event horizon · Nov 26, 2009

If they joined from a Muslim background, then they would be the equivalent of 'born again' Christians.

That means that members of the LRA are born again Christians, right?

shafique · Nov 26, 2009

Do you think the LRA are Christians and want to establish a Christian theocracy?

In my book they aren't, hence why I was counting all their adherents as converts. If you believe they are actually Christian terrorists -then perhaps I was wrong to include them in this thread and should have added them to the list of Christian terrorists that you keep bumping.

So, which is it -are they Christian terrorists or not?

Still waiting for you count though.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Nov 26, 2009

shafique wrote::)

So, let me repeat my count:
In the meantime, this thread is about stats, so let me repeat my updated count (and we haven't really begun to plumb the depths of the LRA atrocities yet):

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 332
Total killed by these: 647
Total reported injured :388

Has you count reached 10 yet?

shafique · Nov 26, 2009

I need to update the statistics on the numbers killed by the LRA since the Christmas massacres in 2008.

This BBC report puts the numbers massacred at 900 - so I need to update my figures as I only counted 400.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7926173.stm

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 332
Total killed by these: 1147
Total reported injured :388

Which is a mind-boggling total when we realise that this is only since last year- and that the LRA have been responsible for further tens of thousands of deaths and mutilations over the period we are looking at.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 26, 2009

Yes, well your updated count needs to go on another thread since this thread is about Christian vs Muslim terrorist converts (who are religious fanatics motivated by the texts and teachings of their adopted religion).

Otherwise, the LRA do not meet the criteria of converts since they would simply be considered born again types, similar to Muslim terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was a born again Muslim and his network in Iraq has killed more Iraqis than the Shi'a militias or any other armed element in Iraq.

shafique · Nov 27, 2009

I'll happily start a new thread once we have your updated counts - we'll just rename it Muslim convert terrorist vs 'Christian and other' Convert counts, and this is what you chose to count and you chose the period.

You didn't answer my simple question though - do you consider the LRA as Christian terrorists? (I said I do not, so they are clearly converts).

If you want to include born-again people in the count -does that mean I need to add up those George W Bush is responsible for?

(And in what way is Zarqawi a 'born again' Muslim? This is a new fantasy and smacks of desperation born of your measly figures)

So what is your count?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 27, 2009

You didn't answer my simple question though - do you consider the LRA as Christian terrorists? (I said I do not, so they are clearly converts).

Yes, they seem to be Christian terrorists. Which means they are the born again types and not actual converts. Unfortunately, this looks like your updated count plunges back around 0. I have been accommodating, however, and allowed you to include that secular/nationalist group from India in your count (even though they do not meet the parameters of religious fanatics moved by the texts and teachings of their adopted religion).

shafique · Nov 28, 2009

Interesting opinion about the LRA. In what way are they Christian terrorists? Are they following Biblical scripture when they mutilate, rape and murder? Do they pray to Jesus? Just because they make reference to the Judaic ten commandments, doesn't make them Christian (if anything, they could be considered Jewish Terrorists - given their Biblical massacres!!)

I couldn't find any reference which says these guys are Christian terrorists - even though the US does list the group as a terrorist organisation.

So, are you just making things up again because you can't face up to the statistics, or will you this time actually provide a reference for a 'quaint' belief?

Then again, perhaps this is just a delaying tactic to disguise the fact you still haven't reached 10 terrorists yet!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Nov 28, 2009

I know you want to desperately believe the LRA are Christian Terrorists (as it will mean we can exclude their acts of terrorism - but undermines your argument that Muslim Terrorists kill more than Christian Terrorists!!) - but you may want to actually read up on what the LRA themselves have said on the subject:

eg:
by Dr. James Alfred Obita
Secretary For External Affairs And Mobilisation, and Leader of Delegation

I bring you warm and sincere greetings from the Lord’s Resistance Movement/Army. I am very pleased indeed to be here with you today. This is one of the few opportunities we have to talk to you and explain to you who we are....

3.4. Propaganda by the Museveni regime and the media that the LRA is a group of Christian fundamentalists with bizarre beliefs whose aim is to topple the Museveni regime and replace it with governance based on the Bible's ten commandments are despicable and must be rejected with all the contempt it deserves.

http://www.km-net.org.uk/conferences/KM97/papers_htm/casefor.htm

You have in the past taken terrorists' own words at face value (eg the NLFT's charter) - whereas I have looked at the actual facts of their actions. Just like the NLFT, I consider the LRA to be a terrorist organisation and don't believe their charter/PR because of the actual terrorist acts they both committed.

What will be interesting is whether you now argue that the LRA are indeed Christian Terrorists despite what they themselves claim.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 29, 2009

Thanks for sharing your views. Very fascinating, but let us compare stats.

Now what was your count of Christian religious extremist converts who carry out acts of violence based on the texts and teachings of Christianity?

shafique · Nov 30, 2009

Ok, let us indeed compare statistics.

What is your count?

Mine are (based on your original parameters which I agreed to) :
Total number of Non-Muslim Terrorist converts carrying out attacks: 332
Total killed by these: 1147
Total reported injured :388

(These are underestimates, may I remind you - and include one LRA campaign - given the above evidence that the LRA are not Christian terrorists like you want to believe).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Nov 30, 2009

I finally found some estimates for the numbers of terrorist converts in the LRA, rather than abducted child killers.

Reports suggest the rebels may have as few as 1,000 trained soldiers, with the rest made up of children who have been forced into the movement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7885885.stm
(Don't click on the above if you are squeamish - it includes a photo of a mutilated child victim of the LRA)

I had previously only included 100 in my total, so I can now increase this by another 900 to allow for the total number of terrorist converts.

Kony is clearly not a Christian - he claims spirits are guiding him- so his fighters are clearly converts:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 124762.stm

Edit - I can also add the 300 killed in Feb 2004 Barlonyo Massacre (see link for the gruesome details):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/12854297/Killing-Every-Living-Thing-Barlonyo-Massacre

Which now gives me a total of :

Total number of Non-Muslim Terrorist converts carrying out attacks: 1232
Total killed by these: 1447
Total reported injured :388*

eh's current total of 6 (or is it 7?) actual Muslim Convert terrorists is looking pretty anaemic.

* Does not include the figures for the LRA yet - will add when I have some estimates.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 03, 2009

eh- you seem to have forgotten to update your count. Where does it stand at the moment - has it reached 10 actual terrorists yet?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 03, 2009

It will take me a while to count all of the Muslim convert jihadists and suicide bombers I have posted on this thread alone. It's also possible that this latest train jihad attack in Russia was the work of that convert JIhadist group (they may have reformed).

In the meantime, do you have any actual examples of religious fanatic converts, yet? The LRA are so far the closest example, but they really aren't converts but Christian terrorists with a dash of superstitious beliefs.

shafique · Dec 03, 2009

Ok - I'll wait.

Let us know when you reach 10 then (and provide the references, as I've done).

I'll have to dig out my list of your quaint beliefs - and add to it the new one that you've just invented, that the LRA are Christian Terrorists. If we actually look at your logic, we could also call them Jewish terrorists because they are only using parts of the OT, as far as I can tell - and we know you refuse to condemn Jewish terrorists!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 03, 2009

Ok, given that wikipedia does list the LRA as Christian Terrorists, eh does have a point that these guys could be considered as 'born again' Christians (assuming that they were Christians to begin with) and not fully-fledged converts to the theology of Kony.

Wiki's entry about them is:

Uganda
The Lord's Resistance Army, a sectarian guerrilla army engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government, has been accused of using child soldiers and committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, porters and sex slaves.[33] It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Christian Holy Spirit which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[34][34][35][36] LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle.[37][38][39][40][41][42]

(Under Christian Terrorism)

So my count goes back to:

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Total killed by these: 247
Total reported injured :388

There is no doubt that the NLFT are Christian Terrorists though - they appear on the same list on wiki and also other lists, and there is no doubt that they are converts to Christianity from Hinduism or animist religions (facts were presented earlier and conceded by eh).

So, happy to move the LRA over to the 'Christian Terrorist' thread in the Religion section.

Now we wait for eh's updated count of Muslim convert terrorists. It last stood at 7, IIRC.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 04, 2009

I agree that the NFLT appears on the wikipedia page. However, one must decide if their inclusion as a 'Christian' terrorist movement is correct or if only a splinter faction within the NFLT are actually Christian terrorists, as opposed to the mainstream movement that seeks to establish a 'workers state' due to the Marxist-Leninist philosophy of the movement's founding fathers.

shafique · Dec 04, 2009

Actually, we are still waiting for your updated count.

The 'National Holy Army's' acts of terrorism are listed and these are the one's I've counted. I've actually underestimated the stats - and I've invited you to check these.

The point is that they are 1. Terrorists, and 2. Converts to Christianity. I'm not sure that those they kill make the distinction you make between 'reformed' and 'original' NLFT terrorists.

So, have you reached 8 actual terrorists yet?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 04, 2009

The 'National Holy Army's' acts of terrorism are listed and these are the one's I've counted. I've actually underestimated the stats - and I've invited you to check these.

Good point. Because they have a military wing called the Holy army, that must mean they are Christian fundamentalists as opposed to ecumenistic fundamentalists.

I mean, when was the last time some one read Muslims using the word 'holy' to describe the Koran, as in 'holy koran' or holy to go along with warriors, as in 'holy warriors'.

2. Converts to Christianity.

Most of the members are Christian, around ten percent of the members are Hindu, etc. I have not seen any evidence that the majority of the Christian members, including the converts, are religious fanatics beyond some allegations of forced conversion carried out by some splinter group.

shafique · Dec 04, 2009

So, where is your count? Has it reached 8 yet?

I could quote you where you agreed these guys were christian terrorist converts, but hey - I guess you are entitled to change your mind, and perhaps you didn't read what you typed out?

I'm happy to compare stats as agreed though - but it's a bit hard when you seem to be stuck at 6 actual terrorists.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 06, 2009

shafique wrote:So my count goes back to:

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Total killed by these: 247
Total reported injured :388

..

Now we wait for eh's updated count of Muslim convert terrorists. It last stood at 7, IIRC.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 06, 2009

What don't you understand that the NLFT is a secular, not Christian fundamentalist, terror group?

shafique · Dec 06, 2009

What was your count?

The NLFT are terrorists. No question.

The NLFT is made up of Christian Converts (and they are listed on the same website which classifies the LRA as Christian Terrorists).

As they are Christian, and as they all converted since the 90's (just see the first two pages of this thread, where you agree to this) - I really don't understand your flip-flop.

No, sorry - I do understand. Your count is stuck at 7 and you need to bring my underestimate down.

Nice try, but no cigar.

What is your count?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 06, 2009

As they are Christian, and as they all converted since the 90's (just see the first two pages of this thread, where you agree to this) - I really don't understand your flip-flop.

Your article didn't say that all of the members of the NLFT are converts to Christianity since the nineties, it said that the number of adherents to Christianity grew by 90% between 1991 and 2000.

Today, according to official figures, there are 120,000 Christians in Tripura, a 90% increase since 1991. ...

I've yet to see proof that the secular NLFT is comprised of converts, let alone that the entire organization is a Christian fundamentalist movement, rather than a group seeking to create a 'workers state'.

shafique · Dec 07, 2009

Terrorists who converted from other religions is the only criterion we both agreed on. Point has been proven - and agreed upon by you. I really can't help you if you are now doubting yourself, the evidence is still there on the first and second pages of this thread.

But, more to the point, where is your updated count?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 07, 2009

event horizon wrote:Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity.

It's unfortunate that some Christians have been corrupted by the teachings found in other religious books which say to attack unbelievers and those who attack unbelievers will become martyrs for killing being killed whilst fighting unbelievers.

I can't help you if you keep flip-flopping.

NLFT kill civilians, they are Christian converts. My numbers are underestimates.

All facts not in dispute.

So, what is your count?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 07, 2009

So now you're claiming that an increase in the percentage of a Christian populations means that all the members of a secular terrorist group are converts.

Fascinating.....

shafique · Dec 07, 2009

I just quoted you saying

Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity

Enough of the flip-flopping - what is your latest count, or have you conceded defeat?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 07, 2009

shafique wrote:
Enough of the flip-flopping - what is your latest count, or have you conceded defeat?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 08, 2009

shafique wrote:I just quoted you saying
Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity

Enough of the flip-flopping - what is your latest count, or have you conceded defeat?

Cheers,
Shafique

I misread your selective quoting tactics.

Do you have evidence that the NLFT are converts and, more importantly, the group is actually fighting for the establishment of a theocracy?

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Christian Vs Muslim Convert Terror Counts - The Results

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