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This story is heartbreaking for many reasons. This is a woman of faith who dresses modestly and wears the hijab, yet she was still preyed upon and s.exually assaulted by her husband's aunt's husband in her own home after her husband went away to work in another part of Turkey. Society's obsession with a woman's se.xual honour made this woman silently endure months of abuse and rape at the hands of this man. No wonder she snapped!

Huffington Post wrote:Witnesses told police they saw Yildirim walk into the village square, carrying Gider's bloody head by his hair.

"Don't talk behind my back, don't play with my honor," Yildirim allegedly told witnesses in the square as she threw Gider's head to the ground. "Here is the head of the man who played with my honor."

Now she is 5 months pregnant with her rapists baby and they are debating whether she can obtain an abortion or not.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/0 ... 61016.html

If they do a DNA test on the child and the rapist and there is a match, what more proof do they need?

I can understand her wanting an abortion, but at 5 months, no way. She should just give the child up for adoption.

I'm guessing since she felt pretty hostile about her rapist that she feels pretty hostile about his baby growing inside of her... I personally think she should view the child as innocent and give birth and give the child up for adoption. Still, easy for me to say without being in her shoes.

kanelli ,

I agree.

Just think, if she wasn't going to be shamed at being raped, she could have told her family and the police after the first rape and she wouldn't have had to endure more. She could also have received the morning after pill and stopped any chance of pregnancy occurring. It takes police to take it seriously, and familiest to not try to cover up and protect their offending family members, and that isn't happening.

Some women are put in jail after being raped because they are told that they must not have fought hard enough against the rapist or the rapist wouldn't have succeeded. Seems men like to play up the physical differences between men and women, and yet it is still a woman's fault if she isn't physically strong enough to prevent her own rape. The resulting implication is that the woman must have been complicit or even enjoyed the se.xual act and so deserve to be punished for adultery or promiscuity. Its sickening.

kanelli wrote: Society's obsession with a woman's se.xual honour made this woman silently endure months of abuse and rape at the hands of this man. No wonder she snapped!

kanelli wrote:Just think, if she wasn't going to be shamed at being raped, she could have told her family and the police after the first rape and she wouldn't have had to endure more.

The article however states that her rapist threatened to kill her children:

Yildirim said Gider threatened to kill her children if she alerted anyone to the crime. The rapes allegedly continued over the course of the next several months and Gider reportedly threatened to publish photos he took of Yildirim's pregnant body if she did not do as he said, Turkish broadcaster DHA reported.
On Aug. 28, Yildirim claims spotted Gider climbing up a wall behind her house and grabbed a rifle that was hanging on the wall.
"I knew he was going to rape me again," Yildirim said at an Aug. 30 preliminary hearing.

After she had killed and beheaded her rapist then:

"Don't talk behind my back, don't play with my honor," Yildirim allegedly told witnesses in the square as she threw Gider's head to the ground. "Here is the head of the man who played with my honor."

The threat to 'tell everyone' is in addition to the threat to kill:

"He kept saying that he would tell everyone [about the rape]," Yildirim told authorities, according to Doğan News Agency. "My daughter will start school this year. Everyone would have insulted my children. Now no one can."

"I saved my honor," she added. "They will now call [her children] 'the kids of the women who saved her honor.'"

But the general point that a society's attitude to rape should not stop a rape victim coming forward is well made. It is jut not that clear that this was the case here.. rather the sense of honour seems to have made her snap and take matters into her own hands, with grotesque consequences. If it was society's issue with rape rather than the threats against the kids and blackmail photos, then that is to be condemned. (Also, playing devil's advocate, we seem to have only her word for the rape after the murder and beheading of the man.. what if it was an affair, or if the murdered man is not the father of the baby?)

The abortion issue is troubling too - but I'm with Bora on this issue.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique ,

I believe it was mentioned that she tried to get an abortion at 14 weeks, but I believe 10 weeks is the maximum (if I recall correctly). DNA will prove if he is the father or not. I can't believe that a woman would go to such an extreme because she was having an affair. What I am curious about is why didn't she tell her husband, or was it a matter of "honor" as well? There obviously is more to the story.

That extreme murderous behaviour sounds like it comes from trauma, not an affair that she wants to break off. The rapist was her husband's aunt's husband, so his family member. Also, as so many examples show, once a woman's vagina has been entered by a man who is not her husband, she is worthless. Perhaps she feared that her husband would want to leave her? There is no mention of the husband's reaction to all of this.

^I said I was 'playing devil's advocate' when raising the possibility that it was an affair - or even whether the dead man is the father of the baby.

I agree that there are questions - especially around what the husband's views are.

From the article - Husband was not around, wife was pregnant, tried to get a late abortion, then kills and beheads a man and claims at that point he raped her, and that this murder is to save her honour. There are clearly questions to be answered - and the local society's view of honour is one of the factors to be looked at.

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli wrote:This is a woman of faith who dresses modestly and wears the hijab, yet she was still preyed upon and s.exually assaulted

Modest dress might help in certain in places but not every. This guy wasn't a God fearing person.

kanelli wrote:Society's obsession with a woman's se.xual honour made this woman silently endure months of abuse and rape at the hands of this man.

That is not my experience with Turkey. Turkey is quite liberal. I sense the assumption is if she was not muslim and she was in western society, she wouldn't have hesitated to tell.

But stigma related to rape is in the west too: http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2012/0 ... a-of-rape/

I hope, Turkish media and society do something to make it easy for the victims to come out and get help after this incident; rather then some people taking this to advance their own bias and stereotypes.

You're right Nucleus, many women don't report rape even in the West for various reasons. But women in the West aren't jailed for being raped, or considered unmarriable, or even married off to their rapists. And women who kill their rapists don't bring their heads to the town square and tell the men not to play with their honour, or say they are "saving" their honour.

Nucleus, I'm sorry you are so sensitive to these feminist topics I am bringing up. You really need to face the facts that too many countries are trampling on the human rights of their women. On this forum I have men telling me that the way a woman dresses will protect her from rape, and no one wants to discuss why there is an obsession with a woman's se.xual honour in some cultures. This example shows how a woman wearing a hijab and modest dress was still raped, and this rapist family member took advantage of the fact that she would stay silent to try to hide the desecration of her honour.

What bias and stereotypes do you think I am promoting here?

kanelli wrote: But women in the West aren't jailed for being raped, or considered unmarriable, or even married off to their rapists.

That doesn't happen in Turkey either.

kanelli wrote:And women who kill their rapists don't bring their heads to the town square and tell the men not to play with their honour, or say they are "saving" their honour.

That is isolated incident and point being? Not sure why somebody want to take 1 or few extreme cases frame it in to something general. It is like taking school shooting incidents in west and saying this is caused by materialistic society of the west. I hope you can see the flaws in these types of reasoning.

The way I see it is for society to work on removing the stigma for rape victims.

What steps do you think need to be taken to help remove the stigma?

kanelli wrote:You really need to face the facts that too many countries are trampling on the human rights of their women.

Fact like this:

kanelli wrote:On this forum I have men telling me that the way a woman dresses will protect her from rape

Not seen that on this forum. You are telling me to look at facts, but you are just misrepresting and taking thing out of context.

kanelli wrote:You really need to face the facts that too many countries are trampling on the human rights of their women.

What facts I've denied when I said society needs to work on removing the stigma from rape victims?

kanelli wrote:no one wants to discuss why there is an obsession with a woman's se.xual honour in some cultures. This example shows how a woman wearing a hijab and modest dress was still raped, and this rapist family member took advantage of the fact that she would stay silent to try to hide the desecration of her honour.

Lot of facts are missing from above. He also threatend to harm her children. She was worried it will bad for her daughter if people find out her mother is raped. But that kind of stigma is there in west too. We are talking about Turkey here not Afghanistan. And I'm not looking up the facts and being sensitive about it? wow, just wow!

I've been to Turkey - and I agree with Nucs that they are quite liberal there - and I agree that I don't think that women wouldn't come forward to report rapes any less frequently than in other parts of Europe.

Indeed, by coincidence, I was watching an interesting documentary today about women in religion called 'Divine Women' (recommended) - and in the third installment there was a scene where the presenter was interviewing a historian in a erotic dancing bar in Istanbul !! (They were discussing Theodora who was a Byzantine 'Emperor' - she insisted on being called an Emperor and Empress - who was a prostitute early on in her life).

In this case, the logic and actions do raise questions - I mean the lady talks about safeguarding her honour by killing and beheading the man, but didn't report the rape because he threatened to kill her children (and also to tell people about the rape??)

I think it would be wrong to generalise too much from this one case - it doesn't need sensationalising.

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli wrote:What steps do you think need to be taken to help remove the stigma?

Educate the society about rape victims, and causes of rape; remove the stigma like Prophet (pbuh) did in early society for similar issues like birth of daughters, marriying widows, etc...

You guys got me! I've made it all up! There is no such thing as "honour" or "virtue" for women, which is based on them remaining virgins until married and staying faithful to their husband from a glance at another man to intercourse and even forced intercourse. Girls are not married off young in order to prevent them from having se.x with someone who isn't their husband upon reaching puberty. Women aren't raised to dress covering most of their skin so that they can protect themselves from harassment and assault and stop tempting men who are not their husbands. I made that up too! Women don't get arrested at political rallies and have their hymens checked to check their "honour" and punish them for being out and doing what women should not be doing - speaking up in a public square alongside their menfolk. The term "honour killing" where women in a family are killed by male family members for not accepting a marriage/trying to divorce/having a boyfriend/suspected of having a boyfriend is a term that was coined by me and I made up all of those stories about "honour killings" around the world. That stuff doesn't happen (especially to the male family members who commit the same "offenses" ). Of course, the news stories about women being jailed for infidelity after being raped, or married off to their rapists were also fabricated by me. I'm so sorry for sensationalizing what isn't the plight of women in some countries. The women are really doing quite fine in those countries and are treated 100% fairly and respectfully. Sorry to have disturbed you gentlemen.

And please note that I've said nothing about religion above. But I'm wondering if even the Muslims here can tell what is a cultural practice and what is religious? As we can see in the off-track Obama thread, it seems the niqab and burka are somehow religious and not cultural after all... The niqab and burka were supposedly first worn to protect women from harsh sandy climates and at some point took on a religious significance, though there is no basis for it in the Quran. Even Mona El Tahawy's article highlighted the fact that it is difficult to tease apart what is cultural and what is religious. It makes for good thinking and good discussion... at least for some who actually care about women's issues. If you don't care, don't give it a second thought

^Are you talking generally or about this one case in Turkey?

As Nucs and I have said, our experience of Turkey is that it is quite a liberal society - at least in Istanbul where I've been. Kanelli, you seem to either have more information about this case, or about Turkey in general, in terms of how rape is viewed in Turkey. You therefore have us at a disadvantage OR you are making some assumptions about Turkey which may or may not be true.

In this case, the murder and beheading are facts. The rape is the reason given by the lady, and no one here has condoned rape in any form and indeed everyone is agreed that women should not be reticent to report any se.xual abuse at all. I'll have to look back, but I don't recall anyone talking about religion, burqa or niqab in relation to this case at all (so not sure why the need to bring it up) (ETA - all I can see is Nucleus mentioning the Prophet in the post above removing misogynistic pre-Islamic stigmas)

I'm not sure who you think doesn't 'actually care about women's issues' - it can't be Nucleus or myself based on what we've written on this thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

Was honour not mentioned in the article many times? Is it your opinion after visiting Turkey and reading articles like this that there is no concept of se.xual honour for women in some elements of Turkish society, or other societies for that matter?

You're right that there is the possibility that this woman seduced her husband's aunt's husband as soon as her husband left to work elsewhere in Turkey. Then she let him take nude pictures of her. And she chose not to use any birth control because she didn't mind getting pregnant while her husband is away - it wouldn't raise any questions Then when she wanted to break off with him she thought she'd try to get an abortion, and then shoot her lover and cut his head off and chuck it into the town square and tell everyone she was raped in order to reclaim her honour and cover up her sneaky affair.

In several threads I've brought up the topic of se.xual honour and getting to the heart of what is cultural and what is religious (in cases where religion is controversially being blamed) and none of the male posters here want to touch the subject with a barge pole. What we have seen is attempts to discredit me because of my skin colour and lack of religious belief, discrediting of examples as being exreme or one-offs, discrediting a Muslim feminist author and implying that her words are dangerous and can give further cause for Western governments to invade the Middle East etc. I've seen doublespeak about how the niqab/burka are cultural but religious, and about how women don't deserve to be raped, but women need to cover up to protect themselves from harassment and s.exual assault. I've seen it said that men must also dress conservatively, but can't find any discussion on how indecent it is that men go to the beach in swimming trunks, or walk around in pubilc in tank tops and shorts or t-shirts and shorts. The focus is always on how short, tight, see-through etc. the women's clothing is. Unless a woman is wearing a nun's habit or the hijab or burka or niqab, she is basically saying that she is se.xually available, right? I really think that some people's views on the differences between men and women as human beings needs deeper consideration, as does the differences in treatment between women and men in many societies, because the double standards are glaring.

You're right DDS, it is like flogging a dead horse. I'm not going to bang my head on a wall trying to discuss this topic again. I'd find it more satisfying discussing with other feminists.

I asked in my last post whether you were talking in general terms or about this specific case. In this specific case, all posters here are unanimous that rape victims shouldn't be stigmatised etc. There are indeed societies where there is extreme paternalism and rape victims are criminalised - it is just that we don't recognise Turkey as one of these societies (and would not generalise based on this incident). Parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan, definitely, come to mind.

In this thread, kanelli, you have to be fair and make a distinction between posters challenging assumptions you have made and equating this with not being pro-feminism etc.

For example you said:

kanelli wrote: The resulting implication is that the woman must have been complicit or even enjoyed the se.xual act and so deserve to be punished for adultery or promiscuity. Its sickening.

This is indeed a situation which offends morals, logic and just common decency. Nothing Nucs or I have written says we advocate this reasoning towards rape victims or women facing any type of s.exual abuse.

What we have challenged is whether this is the case here - as Bora has pointed out, there are questions raised with the account, not least the threat to kill the children if the rape was reported.

Perhaps your assumption is right and that the culture of her village in Turkey did contribute to her not reporting the rape, rather than the threat against her children.

I have been to Turkey and was agreeing with Nucs observation that women in Turkey (and the laws/society generally) is liberal and not the oppressive, patriarchal anti-rape victim you are assuming. We aren't blaming the victim, but questioning your assumption about cultural (and religious?) attitudes in Turkey/her village playing a major part in this tragic crime.

Cheers,
Shafique

Turkey grapples with spike in 'honor' killings

Recent government figures suggest the murders of women – including so-called honor killings – increased 14-fold in seven years, hitting nearly 1,000 in the first seven months of 2009.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2011/041 ... r-killings

“If our prime minister says men and women aren’t equal, it affects men. There’s no positive example for them. They are now thinking that they can do anything they want,” says Gulsun Kanat, a volunteer social worker for the women’s charity Mor Cati.

Though it is impossible to substantiate such claims, Turkey’s statistics on gender equality remain abysmal by almost any standard. While in recent years the country has made tremendous strides economically, improved the situation of its ethnic and religious minorities, and is increasingly enjoying greater political clout on the global stage, it has languished near the bottom of the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap reports since the index was created in 2005. It is currently ranked 126 out of 134 countries – lower even than Iran.

[...]

Meanwhile, a growing number of women activists like those who buried Hatice Firat are intensifying their own fight against the killings and the patriarchal system that still grips Turkish family life....

It's interesting that once again, shafique's observations bear no resemblance with reality. Turkey is actually at the bottom (126 out of 134) of countries that were listed based on gender equality - and actual activists say Turkey is still a patriarchal society (and have condemned the Prime Minister's misogynistic comments on women shafique has repeated in this thread).

Honor was mentioned but word honor doesn't really imply much. How it should have been according to you?

And arn't we missing the guy from this discussion that guy might have been very bad person, who blackmailed her?

The article was probably referring to this example in the article:

The funeral Ms. Yag attended was for 19-year-old Hatice Firat, who was killed Feb. 28 after running away to live with her boyfriend – an offense her relatives saw as staining the family's honor. Local media said her brother was the prime suspect.

No worry, there are plenty of stories that come up when you search "Turkey+honor killings":

Honor Killings Target Turkey's LGBT Citizens

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/1 ... 07335.html

'Honor Killings' Have Morphed Into 'Honor Suicides' in Turkey

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/2 ... 79928.html

You can also blame non-muslim honor killings on Islam

"in Brazil until 1991 wife killings were considered to be non-criminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly 800 husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Columbia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery".
Professor Julie Mertus,
School International Service.


"The mountainous southeastern state of Minas Gerais is commonly known as the terra dos machoes, or land of the machos. 'Here, if a man sleeps around with other women it's a sign of masculinity," says Elaine Matozinho, a policewoman in Belo Horizonte. "But if a woman is an adulteress, it's a different story: she pays with her life."
TIME MAGAZINE, 11/08/1990
"Brazil: Crimes of Passion".

"Peru... the pattern of murders of women detected by the study in the 2003-2005 period (revealed) three-quarters of the killers were cohabiting partners, boyfriends, husbands, ex-partners or ex-boyfriends of the victims.
In 2005, 58 percent of men accused of murdering women claimed infidelity or jealousy as their motive."
International Press Service, 6 June 2006.

http://www.safety-security-crazy.com/cr ... ssion.html

Of course, those aren't actual honor killings. But why not change the subject/argument when you're behind?

shafique wrote:I've been to Turkey - and I agree with Nucs that they are quite liberal there - and I agree that I don't think that women wouldn't come forward to report rapes any less frequently than in other parts of Europe.

vs

reality wrote:Turkey grapples with spike in 'honor' killings

Recent government figures suggest the murders of women – including so-called honor killings – increased 14-fold in seven years, hitting nearly 1,000 in the first seven months of 2009.

Nucleus, like I said, culture and religion need to be teased apart to get to the root of what is being used as an excuse to condone how women are treated. Of course there are "honour" killings in other cultures where Islam is not present. The question still stands - why are men so obsessed with a woman's se.xual honour that she is worth nothing and dishonours her whole family and deserves to be killed/jailed/married off?

kanelli wrote:The question still stands - why are men so obsessed with a woman's se.xual honour that she is worth nothing and dishonours her whole family and deserves to be killed/jailed/married off?

The sad point is that there are honour killings by women against other women too - so it is not just a male issue. There was a case in the UK a few years back where a Sikh lady killed her daughter-in-law in an honour killing (took place in 2007).

The issue of honour and honour killings is indeed a phenomenon that I agree completely with you on the need to tackle, educate and not least condemn. I also would join you in condemning and urging measures to tackle any society where women are reluctant to report rapes or worse where rape victims are themselves victimised.

What is it about these societies that cause men and women to have this distorted view of honour is indeed a valid question. The experts say it is not down to religion but down to culture. Certainly the Sikh lady can't be said to be influenced by Islam!

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli wrote:Nucleus, like I said, culture and religion need to be teased apart to get to the root of what is being used as an excuse to condone how women are treated.

It is too absract, I can't figure out what you mean as solution in there.

kanelli wrote:The question still stands - why are men so obsessed with a woman's se.xual honour that she is worth nothing and dishonours her whole family and deserves to be killed/jailed/married off?

I think it is related to income earner, I've seen rich women who are with not a guy with equal status. Guy can't even talk or near another attractive women while they themselves are flirting around with other guys. It is a generalization, I also know nice couples are very respectful and caring of each other. But my point is I've seen women with that kind of behavior too.

What is it about these societies that cause men and women to have this distorted view of honour is indeed a valid question. The experts say it is not down to religion but down to culture. Certainly the Sikh lady can't be said to be influenced by Islam!

One of the dumbest arguments easily refuted. Secularist Sikhs and Muslims aren't honor killing their family members last I knew. Sikhs and Muslims do not pray because of culture but religious beliefs. That Secular adherents to a religion do not carry out "crimes" (not in Iran) their religious counterparts carry out indicates a religious component our weak minded professional spinsters would rather not address. That Sikhs pray just like Muslims but not because of Islam does not mean prayer in both religions is cultural; that's something our weak minded professional spinsters can not refute.

I guess I'll bring one more story leave the discussion to Shaf with EH:

Faten Habash's murder was unusual because she came from the Christian minority in the Palestinian territories. Her desire to marry a young Muslim, Samer Hamis, so infuriated her family that the couple decided to elope to Jordan.

Faten's father enlisted the family priest to stop his daughter on the grounds that, even though she was 22, all women are legally regarded as minors under the authority of their male relatives. The Palestinian authorities returned Faten to her home where she was beaten and her pelvis broken as she was either thrown from a window or jumped trying to escape. She spent six weeks in hospital. She sought protection under an ancient Bedouin formula for resolving disputes, known as Tanebeh. Abu Dahouq, a lawyer for the Dawakuk tribe, negotiated with the Habash family.

Mr Dahouq said: "Faten believed she had received a guarantee of security." Two days later she was murdered. "This family had no honour, no manners, no ethics," he said. "And the girl was as honourable as could be. All she wanted to do was marry this man she loved. I think the people in her church also have responsibility for this killing. They told this family that their daughter brought shame, so that makes them part of the crime."

The family priest, Father Ibrahim Hijazin, declined to talk about Faten's killing other than to say he called the Palestinian authorities to prevent her from reaching Jordan. But he says other families would have reacted as hers did. "There is no interfaith marriage among Arabs. Catholics here are Christian by faith and Muslim by culture, and in this community it is forbidden for Christians to marry Muslims. It's not good. It's a tribal mentality. I don't accept it, but it is the culture," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/23/israel