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Here's an example of a Hindu honour killing carried out by women - this time over a girl eloping with a lower caste boy:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... 340301.ece

eh seems to be blaming religion when it is Sikhs and Muslims who carry out honour crimes, I guess by the same token Christianity is to blame for Nuc's example above then?

But we've been here before with eh - he comes up with his 'anti-muslim blogger-only' theories - is challenged, and then he runs away after making empty boasts:
philosophy-dubai/honour-killings-what-the-experts-say-t48488.html

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:The question still stands - why are men so obsessed with a woman's se.xual honour that she is worth nothing and dishonours her whole family and deserves to be killed/jailed/married off?

Nucleus wrote:I think it is related to income earner, I've seen rich women who are with not a guy with equal status. Guy can't even talk or near another attractive women while they themselves are flirting around with other guys. It is a generalization, I also know nice couples are very respectful and caring of each other. But my point is I've seen women with that kind of behavior too.

I'm puzzled by this comment. Is this your explanation for some people's obsession with a woman's se.xual honour and why if she "dishonours" her family she deserves to be killed/jailed/married off?

It doesn't matter who is wealthy and who isn't, neither partner in a marriage should be flirting with others if they want to be respectful to their spouses. Often women are looked on negatively if they flirt, while men are not - because there is the stereotype that a man is meant to do it, its in his nature, while women should be absent of any se.xual desire or flirtation... if they are good and decent women. It's the reason why women are treated harshly for things regarding their se.xuality or conduct around men.

I don't see EH's posts because he's on my foe list, but I take it he is blaming Islam for honour killings. Clearly there is evidence of honour killings in non-Muslim societies, so there is more to the story. Still, it is true that some families who have engaged in honour killing have used their religion as an excuse. The question is, does the Quran say that women should be killed for dishonouring their family?

kanelli wrote:I'm puzzled by this comment. Is this your explanation for some people's obsession with a woman's se.xual honour and why if she "dishonours" her family she deserves to be killed/jailed/married off?

Discussion is all over the place, the story posted in the OP this is not this case. It happens in some places in Asia, which I'm extremely against. My response was related honor killings related to my last few posts which were mostly from South America and seems like most of them were done by ex/spouses which I'll come to that later.

Now if you have that in mind, in my opinion, which still quite abstract for specific cases. Sexual honor as in unforbidden marriage or sexual relations? Each have their own reasons if it is marriage than it something else, neither of them did any thing dishonored from religious perspective (at least from Islamic perspective if couple is married). If it is related to sex outside marriage it is sinful, and that might be considered unhonorable thing and a woman might be considered loose. If you have a specific case then it is easy to discuss the reasons.

Where women are jailed for getting raped, that is just stupid. I can't think how that came in society, but I know people who have worked on these issues and they did made progress by educating people.

And it is not something limited to sex, honor is a complicated subject although I guess most case involve sex or relations because it is something important to society and families. It happens when somebody from wealthy family wants to marry somebody poor (or from lower status or from different cast as in India) and I've heard about cases involving both men and women and from many parts of the world. Like I said each type has their own specific reasons the only common denominator is when somebody from family does horribly against their family's or societies expectations.

kanelli wrote:It doesn't matter who is wealthy and who isn't, neither partner in a marriage should be flirting with others if they want to be respectful to their spouses. Often women are looked on negatively if they flirt, while men are not - because there is the stereotype that a man is meant to do it, its in his nature, while women should be absent of any se.xual desire or flirtation... if they are good and decent women. It's the reason why women are treated harshly for things regarding their se.xuality or conduct around men.

From my obeservation wealth does seem to matter, but it is different issue than family honor. I've come across couple of women who do treat their husbands or boyfriends like their property and had no disregard for their feelings, and showed gross double standards. All of them were from wealthy families and brought up spoiled, for the lack of better term. But like I said this is generalization, on the other hand, I've met very nice girls from wealthy families too. Now that brings to where that stereotype for men came from, maybe it has something to do with income (since normally men used to earn)? I might be wrong, I'm just thinking.

kanelli wrote:does the Quran say that women should be killed for dishonouring their family?

Nope. But there is punishment for relations outside marriege, but they are same for both men and women.

What does the Quran say is the punishment for women and men for infidelity?

Nucleus, you 've still lost me on this tangent you've gone on. I'll comment anyway. Wealthy women will certainly have a different attitude in a relationship than poor women, because they are able to function independently from a man because they have their own wealth to survive on. Typically men have enjoyed the power of having the wealth and knowing that a wife from a poor background would be willing to put up with much more because she doesn't want to be left destitute. You will find many more men eager to marry a woman from a poor background or a lesser-educated woman or a much younger woman - all for the simple fact that they would hold increased power in the relationship. Nowadays, wealthy and/or well-educated women tend to want to find someone on the same level and they will be more of a challenging spouse to have. Some men like this, some don't. No matter who has the wealth or the higher education, mistreating a spouse simply because you hold some kind of power over them is not fair. There should be equality and team-work.

kanelli wrote:What does the Quran say is the punishment for women and men for infidelity?

Lashes.

kanelli wrote:Nucleus, you 've still lost me on this tangent you've gone on.

It is coming from cases in peru quoted earlier where man sleeps with other women he has no issues but if woman sleeps with other men it becames an issue of honor. I'm saying I noticed that behavior in women too, and it maybe related to income factor, but I could be wrong.

kanelli wrote:Wealthy women will certainly have a different attitude in a relationship than poor women, because they are able to function independently from a man because they have their own wealth to survive on. Typically men have enjoyed the power of having the wealth and knowing that a wife from a poor background would be willing to put up with much more because she doesn't want to be left destitute. You will find many more men eager to marry a woman from a poor background or a lesser-educated woman or a much younger woman - all for the simple fact that they would hold increased power in the relationship.

That's not what I'm talking about. I gave you an example where these women were flirting around with other men, while they wouldn't let their guy near any other women who was slightly beautiful.

kanelli wrote:No matter who has the wealth or the higher education, mistreating a spouse simply because you hold some kind of power over them is not fair. There should be equality and team-work.

That is my opinion too.

A question from me. Would you consider Breivik case honor related? I'll quote relevant part below:

Mr. Breivik, a self-described militant nationalist, blames his bombing of government buildings in Oslo and shooting rampage at Utøya island on the ruling Labor party for promoting multiculturalism with its lenient immigration policies and allowing mass immigration to undermine Norwegian society.

“The curriculum is stripped of knowledge relating to the codes of honor [emphasis mine] that have been so important for Europe for thousands of years,” Breivik told his defense attorney Vibeke Hein Baera on April 20.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2 ... ians-video

Nucleus, I think that when someone is economically dependent on a wealthier spouse and they don't want to be without the benefits of money, they will tolerate more bad behaviour of their spouse. The other spouse knows this. This is what I mean by someone abusing their power over the other. It is the same for both men and women. I'm not disagreeing that there are some women out there who want to flirt with other men while they don't tolerate their husbands doing it. It is unfair.

I don't think Breivik relates to this discussion at all. With a one sentence quote out of context there is no way for me to understand what he would be saying about honour. In any case, he's a nutjob, so it is probably something crazy anyway.