Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship?

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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 14, 2011
Sorry Shaf, the harm has been explicitly stated but you just don't accept it. Quite puzzling.

Maybe you can answer what the harm of students praying after school hours on Fridays (and paying to use the facilities like the ballet people do ;)), or better yet, praying on Saturdays at the mosque is?

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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 14, 2011
Sorry for being slow.

But what was the harm again from schoolchildren praying on Friday lunchtime?

Praying after school hours is what they do every day anyway - Friday prayers take place at Friday lunchtimes. We can debate what the benefits of praying and the attendance of Friday prayers. But surely those wishing to ban these kids from continuing to pray on Fridays should give a good reason for the school to stop offering them the space.

If the kids think it benefits them, isn't that enough? (as long as it doesn't harm anyone else?)

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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 14, 2011
shafique wrote:If I missed the answer to my question 'what is the harm' - please let me know. I didn't think I was THAT thick.

Yes, of course, the children can pray at the their desks etc if they didn't have this option - that's not in dispute.

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Shafique


Who is talking about "harm"?? No one is saying that there is any harm in the students praying, the argument is that there is a separation of church and state. Church would be religion, and in this case, state would be public school. Why do you think there are mosques, churches, and synagogues? Are they not for people who want to celebrate and worship the same religion? Public schools are none of the above as public schools are multi-religious and are NOT religious institutions. The only choice they should have is to pray at their desk, as would a Christian, a Jew, a Hindu, a Protestant, a Jehovah Witness, a Born Again Christian, or any other person who follows a religion that uses prayer.

For years Muslims have been practicing their faith in the Western world without the need for special treatment. Now these children of, more than likely, immigrants require special treatment. To avoid the necessity for special treatment send them to Islamic schools. They are entitled to a free public school education, but if there is such a high value held to practice their faith, they should attend an Islamic school where they can pray as many times a day as required, 5 days a week, the same way Catholics send their children to Catholic schools and Jews send their children to Yeshiva. Why are these Muslim children exposed to "Western" thinking and society considering many Muslims find so much wrong with it? When some of these children fall away from Islam and their practice is not as strong as it once was, and that is bound to happen, who is going to be blamed: Westerners for their corrupt lifestyle and thinking?

America was not founded on the principles of Islam.
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 14, 2011
I don't think you actually understand what a separation between religion and state entails when you want to see public schools being used to promote a certain religion.

Either that, or you're talking from both corners of your mouth just like when you say you support free speech but want speech that insults Muslims / Islam criminalized.

Just a quick reminder, the legal precedent in Canada should forbid this type of activity from taking place in schools since previous legal rulings have prohibited students from praying and churches from distributing Bibles to students who have signed parental consent forms to obtain Bibles.

It's also a matter of violating the school system's own gender equality policy. I could just imagine the uproar if menstruating girls were barred from their math classes. If Muslims don't want to hear criticism of their practices then they should keep it to their Mosques and private homes where under Canadian law it belongs.
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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 14, 2011
Bora Bora wrote:Who is talking about "harm"?? No one is saying that there is any harm in the students praying,


Thanks for the clarification.

Bora Bora wrote: the argument is that there is a separation of church and state.


Ok. I understand that you are therefore arguing that a school allowing children to pray in a school hall on Friday lunch times violates this separation of Church and State.

I personally do not see it as a violation to allow children to pray - on the grounds that it is just providing a venue and not forcing all children in the school to attend. (Hence why I use the analogy of ballet).

We therefore have different viewpoints on whether just allowing children to pray violates the separation of Church and State.

America was not founded on the principles of Islam.


This school is in Canada, btw.

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Shafique
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 14, 2011
Btw, for those who are interested in the facts, this issue involves more than children saying a prayer before they eat their lunch.

Teachers actually have to clear out the cafeteria tables, set up barricades between the boys and girls (as seen in the photograph) and an Imam comes into the school to deliver a sermon and deliver prayer - along with the whole creating a forty minute bubble where all non-Muslims are prohibited from entering the cafeteria, including faculty. The last bit boggles the mind.

This is an issue of a school promoting a religion. And Canadian schools would not allow Christian children to pray at school, something no one has argued against in this thread. Despite this, the usual smear attacks are leveled that everyone hates Islam despite no one objecting to the double standard employed by the Toronto school district, just merely pointing it out.

The bottom line is that Canadians have drawn up laws which reflect their cultural sensitivities and I for one respect that. It would be hypocritical to say they are ok to ban Christian prayer or Bible distribution but not ban turning a public school into a Mosque, for example.
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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 14, 2011
I would certainly join you in condemning any move to get all Canadian school children to read Quranic prayers, or to have Qurans distributed to all. This would be the equivalent of the ban on Christian prayer and Bible distribution.

I would similarly NOT object to any school allowing Christian children to pray for 40 minutes at lunch time once a week. Ergo - no hypocrisy is saying I don't see the harm in the school allowing 40 minutes once a week for Muslim children to attend a service and pray collectively.

That said, at least we've established that the act of worship of the children causes no harm.


Arguments over whether allowing children to pray violates Canadian laws and regulations are for the lawyers to argue - from my lay perspective, I understand the objections, but I don't agree with them - on the grounds that it is not being forced on all children.

If it is only a 40 min period once a week - what is the fuss really about?

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Shafique
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
@ shaf : do you see any harm from a cartoon showing muhammed with a bomb up his a$$?
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
shafique wrote:or to have Qurans distributed to all.


Of course, that's not what I said:

the legal precedent in Canada should forbid this type of activity from taking place in schools since previous legal rulings have prohibited students from praying and churches from distributing Bibles to students who have signed parental consent forms to obtain Bibles.


The Bibles were never distributed to all children and I never said or implied they were. I was pretty clear that Bibles were only given out to children with permission slips to pick them up. I'll leave it to the reader to decide if you purposely chose to misread my comment.

shafique wrote:I would similarly NOT object to any school allowing Christian children to pray for 40 minutes at lunch time once a week. Ergo - no hypocrisy is saying I don't see the harm in the school allowing 40 minutes once a week for Muslim children to attend a service and pray collectively.


Public schools are not funded by the tax payer so they can be turned into houses of worship. You once again ignore much of the issue that this cafeteria is turned into a mosque (the faculty actually takes part) and the rituals which take place regarding equality are certainly raising eyebrows. Saying that you are for the separation of church and state rings hollow when you don't take issue with the state promoting religion. This is what is occurring and is opposed by most Canadian citizens, it seems.

Speaking of hypocrisy, what's your stance on excluding menstruating girls from taking part in math class? Is that something you would support?
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
shafique the taliban man brings up ballet? :lol: jooooooke of the day why? because dancing in front of men is not allowed for women in islam

and music is haram, music and dancing are allowed only to appreciate allah

Shaykh Amjad Rasheed : If dancing comprises folding the limbs [h: such as the waist] as corrupt and effeminate men and women do, then it is forbidden for both men and women.

The Hanafis, Malikis, and Hambalis...are of the opinion that dancing is of prohibitively disliked nature because doing it is degrading, an act of stupidity, and because it is from the detractors of dignity, and it's from (reprehensible) amusement.
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
So, let's summarise.

Some posters just hate Islam and Muslims. We can laugh at these guys - nothing to debate there. (You know who you are).

Others believe that the School is violating the separation of Church and State when it allows a collective prayer and sermon for Muslims to take place in a school hall - for a grand total of 40 min each Friday lunch time. I think this is a valid argument, but one I don't agree with - on the grounds that the school is not imposing religious values etc on the whole school, only providing a place for Muslims to pray for that 40 minutes.

I would similarly not object if Buddhists, Christians etc were also given 40 min a week for their prayers or services - this too would not violate Church and State separation, IMO.

What would violate this separation would be acts which have been banned - eg. all Students to say prayers or all students to be given scripture of one religion.


As for girls having their period sitting out the congregational prayer after the sermon - I don't see what the issue is really. They attended the sermon - and they would attend classes normally. When it comes to the congregational prayer, they sit it out. Where's the beef? It's not like they've been excluded from the room or anything.

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Shafique
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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 15, 2011
So having multiple religions holding religious services during school hours on public school premises is not infringing on the rule of separation of religion and state? Maybe there shouldn't be any churches, mosques, synagogues or temples - everyone can just use their local public school for free :)
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
shafique wrote:Others believe that the School is violating the separation of Church and State when it allows a collective prayer and sermon for Muslims to take place in a school hall - for a grand total of 40 min each Friday lunch time. I think this is a valid argument, but one I don't agree with - on the grounds that the school is not imposing religious values etc on the whole school, only providing a place for Muslims to pray for that 40 minutes.


You have strange definitions floating around in that mind of yours. A public school providing religious services is a violation of church and state. Not even conservative Christians seek to turn public schools into churches that I'm aware of.

It's a pretty clear cut example to boot. How is having public schools deliver sermons and prayers not violating the promotion of religion by the government?

shafique wrote:What would violate this separation would be acts which have been banned - eg. all Students to say prayers or all students to be given scripture of one religion.


Sorry, you're once again choosing not to read what's actually been said. Canadian school policy to ban the distribution of Bibles at school wasn't prompted by Bibles being given to all students. I see you're once again changing the details of which you were informed. But go ahead, claim you're not thick headed.

shafique wrote:As for girls having their period sitting out the congregational prayer after the sermon - I don't see what the issue is really. They attended the sermon - and they would attend classes normally. When it comes to the congregational prayer, they sit it out. Where's the beef? It's not like they've been excluded from the room or anything.


A disturbed mind is worrisome. My jaw just dropped to the floor reading this. While you don't see any problem with viewing menstruating girls as dirty - and this view being promoted at public school - millions of Canadians, and the parents of these girls, see such views as backwards and deeply se.xist. This is exactly one of the reasons why having religious services at public schools should never have been allowed - even the Toronto school board seemed to agree that they were against this practice.

And I doubt very much that this would fly with the school board if this were done with ballerina lessons, math class or anything else.

Edit: Just came across information that Ahmadiyya students are prohibited from attending the prayers as they're not Muslims:

"There is no reason for children not being Muslim to be forced to sit outside," she said. The Congress noted that Ismailis and Ahmadiyyas were also excluded as they are not recognized as Muslims by mainstream groups.


http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-prayers-to ... 23941.html
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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 15, 2011
kanelli wrote:So having multiple religions holding religious services during school hours on public school premises is not infringing on the rule of separation of religion and state?


Now, what did I say about 'mountains and molehills'. :D

We are talking about 40 min at lunch time, once a week for an activity which everyone now seems to agree causes no harm (either to those in the hall or those who in the rest of the school).


'Everyone else will want to hold a service once a week' is hardly a strong reason to wish for the school to stop allowing these students 40 min once a week, IMO.

But in answer to your question - no, allowing a ballet class, film club, Jedi appreciation society, Christian, Jewish, or any other group, to hold elective 40 min sessions once a week would not be a violation of the rule, IMO - why not hold them concurrently? Rather than taking away the right from one group - why not open it up to all? Great idea to me. ;)

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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
Oh, and where would they have the room to do that? Perhaps the gymnasium? That would fit one group.

Hopefully there aren't any Ahmadiyya students at that school, otherwise they'd have to compete for room with other non-Muslims for where they could pray.

And why would the non-Muslim students want to pray on Fridays? What about Wednesday mass? Why can't Muslims accommodate with the Catholics?

Interesting comment from the last link I posted:

passerby
9:18 PM on July 5, 2011
1) All extra-curricular activities for all (muslim and non-muslim) students in the gym/cafeteria are cancelled for Fridays, as is use of the cafeteria by any teacher who wants to work on a performance with a large group of students on curricular topic.

2) The heating and maintenance of the cafeteria are paid for by the board. This means, essentially, the board is still paying for religious instruction exclusively for one ethnic group attending the school

3) The superintendant is quoted as saying he can't guarantee any imam coming in to the school won't be making objectionable remarks about gays, women, other ethnic groups as he can't interfere with a group's religious instruction (See the Toronto Sun for his remarks). And all this will take place in a public school during the school day. (Get ready for a lot of homophobic, anti-Jew, pro-traditional women talks.) Extremist views will, of course, be understood to be condoned by the school, as this is taking place on school property when school officials are present in the building.

4) The school board has now recruited public school teachers - and not the parents - to make sure Muslim children attend mosque on Fridays

5) Teachers (many of them women like myself) working in that school will be directing girl children to a room where they will be made to sit at the back of the room - in the fear of inciting boy children into thinking promiscuous thoughts. This, to me, is the most objectionable part of how a public school teacher will spend her day.

6) Get ready for the future war waged on a school's timetable and classrooms as other ethnic groups insist on inviting their religious leaders into the schools to conduct their own prayers and education.


I'm just wondering, what would happen to any female student who refuses to sit at the back of the cafeteria during worship services?

Is the school going to suspend her? I can imagine the uproar if a female student is suspended for refusing to follow the segregationist policies of the worship service at a public school.
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
I don't understand why fanatastical scenarios have to be resorted to - could it be because we're only talking about some school children taking 40 min once a week at Friday lunch time to worship God?

I thought my analogy of an elective ballet class was stretching things a bit - but to impose a loon understanding of Islam on these kids is taking things a bit far, IMO. Let's stick with reality, shall we?

40 min. At lunch time. Once a week.

This is not a Moooslim take-over. :D

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Shafique
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
What fantastical scenario are you talking about? The school would have to accommodate Muslims, Ismailis, Ahmadis, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, Bahais, etc.

You claimed this could be done all at the same time. How? Where is the school going to find enough empty rooms - all separate from each differing faith and denomination - to allow students to have their *OWN* worship service? It doesn't seem like you actually have pondered the logistical nightmare of all this.

And what if worshiping on a Wednesday is just as if not more essential to members of a faith as it is for Muslims to worship on Friday? Why can't they have their Wednesday worship service?

As for girls refusing to sit at the back of the service, I suppose if all women were as docile as the ones you are used to we wouldn't have to consider that possibility. But of course, there are girls who will oppose the segregationist policies being practiced at a public school. Are school officials going to suspend girls for refusing to sit at the back of the class?
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
shafique wrote: This is not a Moooslim take-over. :D

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes it is... step by step
Here is a very good presentation how they do it. look at 2 30 about how mooslims use US and Canadian laws to influence and impose islam in public schools against separation church / state regulations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV9AxXv18NU&NR=1

And manual : how to establish a prayer room on campus
http://www.msanational.org/MSA_Content/ ... campus.pdf
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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 15, 2011
Shaf, you just don't get it. Again, if you want to compare ballet and Islamic religious service see the other thread. They aren't the same.

OK, how about if all schools were supposed to be dance-free places. The schools evolved to remove all dance from school practices and curricula. Then one group says they would like to have ballet for 40 minutes every Friday during lunch hour for those who are interested in attending. The tap, hip hop, and jazz dance people felt a bit upset that they always practiced in their respective dance schools outside of the school premises and outside of school hours using no school resources because they understood that public school was a dance-free place. If the ballet dance people can dance at school during school hours, why can't the tap, hip and jazz dance people? I mean, it isn't harming anyone, right?

No one (except the resident Islamophobes) are claiming that this is about a Muslim take-over, its about religion being brought back into schools after all the effort to remove it. But to play devil's advocate, having 40 minutes of Islamic prayer in a school may make other students curious, and they may decide to attend and after a while convert! Perhaps that's why people of other religions in Islamic countries aren't allowed as much freedom to practice, because it is seen as a threat to Islam. A public school that is completely free of religion pleases everyone from multiple religions because it is not a place for instigating the conversion of others. Religion remains an outside of school issue, which parents have more control over. Just saying :)

In summary, there should be no religious services offered using public school property, time and resources. It was a mistake for the Toronto District School Board to even let this happen in the first place. EVERYONE is free to practice their religion in their homes, churches, mosques, synagogues and temples. Very sad if that just isn't good enough for some people.
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
kanelli - thanks for the detailed post explaining your argument.

I understand it. You view a religious service during school time to be a violation of the separation of Church and State, and don't agree with me that the fact it is elective and only for those of that faith makes it ok and not a violation.

I understand that this view is based on a desire to leave religious practices totally outside of state control - and it is a desire I actually not only understand, but have a lot of sympathy for too.

From my perspective, we are just drawing the line between what is violating this separation and what isn't at different places.

For me - prosletysing, having everyone say a prayer, giving everyone a Bible/Quran/Gita etc are definitely over the line and do violate the separation. For me, allowing a 40 min congregational prayer on Friday lunchtime is not crossing the line.

I fully understand you disagree with me.

Whether it is violating Canadian laws/guidelines - let's see what the lawyers say.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
event horizon wrote:
shafique wrote:or to have Qurans distributed to all.


Of course, that's not what I said:

the legal precedent in Canada should forbid this type of activity from taking place in schools since previous legal rulings have prohibited students from praying and churches from distributing Bibles to students who have signed parental consent forms to obtain Bibles.


The Bibles were never distributed to all children and I never said or implied they were. I was pretty clear that Bibles were only given out to children with permission slips to pick them up. I'll leave it to the reader to decide if you purposely chose to misread my comment.


One reader finds this behaviour, which is exhibited quite often by poster Shafique, trolling and very passive aggresive.
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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 15, 2011
I definitely look forward to seeing what the lawyers have to say.
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
Flying Dutchman wrote:
event horizon wrote:
shafique wrote:or to have Qurans distributed to all.


Of course, that's not what I said:

the legal precedent in Canada should forbid this type of activity from taking place in schools since previous legal rulings have prohibited students from praying and churches from distributing Bibles to students who have signed parental consent forms to obtain Bibles.


The Bibles were never distributed to all children and I never said or implied they were. I was pretty clear that Bibles were only given out to children with permission slips to pick them up. I'll leave it to the reader to decide if you purposely chose to misread my comment.


One reader finds this behaviour, which is exhibited quite often by poster Shafique, trolling and very passive aggresive.


No doubt about it. This thread's a good reminder of it too. I've always said shafique is a natural troll.

He has to twist arguments and make obtuse comments (and repeat himself without any new material until people don't bother to reply) because his platform is inherently weak. I think by now it's obvious he's more interested in silencing opposing views than addressing viewpoints.

His comparison between religious services and ballet was quite dumb and shouldn't have needed a response by anyone in possession of basic critical thinking skills. The analogy between menstruating girls voluntarily sitting out during PE - which is a physical activity - to the school requiring that these same girls not take part in a school event for superstitious reasons (menstruating girls seen as ritualistically impure seems as superstitious as one can get to me) was absurd. It should be pointed out here that he claims his views are all grounded in logic, I kid you not.

I'm still waiting for any explanation from anyone how a public school is going to cater to individual and secluded worship services from at least half a dozen separate faiths.

Or why these worship services should cater to Islam and take place on Fridays as opposed to Wednesdays or any other day and time of the week.

Shafique's argument that he doesn't see a conflict in separation between church and state when the state is used to promote a religion by actually holding religious services on their time and property is baffling. How is that not a breech in the secular character of the state? And if that isn't a violation, then what is?

Shafique saying that he doesn't see a problem with public school breaking its own gender equality policy to discriminate against menstruating girls by requiring that they don't take part in prayers and sit farthest in the back because Islam views menstruating females as ritualistically unclean (and normal women are unclean, otherwise the boys and girls wouldn't need to enter at different locations of the cafeteria before prayer even begins or for girls to remain segregated during the sermon) was the most revealing example that shafique does not base his views on logic and reason but on religious fundamentalism. He seriously has no problem with public schools endorsing the belief that males and females need to be segregated and that females are dirtier than males.
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
Here's what the Toronto District School Board has to say on this:

"While the TDSB is part of a secular public school system, we exist within a broader context of law and public policy that protects and defends human rights. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects freedom of religion. The Ontario Human Rights Code protects an individual's freedom from discriminatory or harassing behaviour based on religion. The Toronto District School Board recognizes and is committed to the values of freedom of religion and freedom from discriminatory or harassing behaviour based on religion.

"The Toronto District School Board takes reasonable steps to provide accommodation to members of religious groups who state that the Board's operations or requirements interfere with their ability to exercise their religious beliefs and practices.

"Where religious accommodation is concerned, the law is quite clear: freedom of religion in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms supersedes the Education Act.

"Here are some facts regarding the law: Indoctrinating religious instruction is prohibited in public boards; non-indoctrinating instruction about religion is allowed; and scriptural readings from a variety of religions and beliefs, and moments of silence, are permitted during opening or closing exercises.

"A primary goal is always to maximize instructional time for our students. We do this entirely within the context of instruction rather than indoctrination in any religion. In this way, we strive to achieve the respectful separation of religious devotion and education within our schools.

"In the case of Valley Park, the school is not teaching 'religious practice'. Rather it is accommodating for the religious and spiritual needs of the students like other schools do around the country different faith communities.

"There have been concerns expressed that the practice of Islam separates individuals by gender. We do not have the authority to tell faith groups how to pray. Students who participate in the prayer services do so voluntarily and with parental permission, no one is obligated to participate.

"We understand this is a very sensitive issue for many, and that there will continue to be differing opinions among members of our communities. However, we believe it is the willingness to have courageous conversations like these that has made Canada the diverse yet cohesive society (it is)."

http://www.tdsb.on.ca/about_us/media_ro ... self=30364

I expect some loon rants (what else is new) from the resident loons - but for the ladies of conscience, doesn't it appear that my logic is line with the School Board's? (I'm not saying you should agree with my logic - just asking whether you agree with what I stated is in line with the above?)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
It’s the scene every Friday at the cafeteria of Valley Park Middle School in Toronto. That’s not a private academy, it’s a public school funded by taxpayers. And yet, oddly enough, what’s going on is a prayer service – oh, relax, it’s not Anglican or anything improper like that; it’s Muslim Friday prayers, and the Toronto District School Board says don’t worry, it’s just for convenience: They put the cafeteria at the local imams’ disposal because otherwise the kids would have to troop off to the local mosque and then they’d be late for Lesbian History class or whatever subject is scheduled for Friday afternoon.

The picture is taken from the back of the cafeteria. In the distance are the boys. They’re male, so they get to sit up front at prayers. Behind them are the girls. They’re female, so they have to sit behind the boys because they’re second-class citizens – not in the whole of Canada, not formally, not yet, but in the cafeteria of a middle school run by the Toronto District School Board they most certainly are.

And the third row? The ones with their backs to us in the foreground of the picture? Well, let the Star’s caption writer explain:

At Valley Park Middle School, Muslim students participate in the Friday prayer service. Menstruating girls, at the very back, do not take part.

Oh. As Kathy Shaidle says:

Yep, that’s part of the caption of the Toronto Star photo.

Yes, the country is Canada and the year is 2011.

Just so. Not some exotic photojournalism essay from an upcountry village in Krappistan. But a typical Friday at a middle school in the largest city in Canada. I forget which brand of tampon used to advertise itself with the pitch "Now with new [whatever] you can go horse-riding, water-ski-ing, ballet dancing, whatever you want to do", but perhaps they can just add the tag: "But not participate in Friday prayers at an Ontario public school."

Some Canadians will look at this picture and react as Miss Shaidle did, or Tasha Kheiriddin in The National Post:

Is this the Middle Ages? Have I stumbled into a time warp, where “unclean” women must be prevented from “defiling” other persons? It’s bad enough that the girls at Valley Park have to enter the cafeteria from the back, while the boys enter from the front, but does the entire school have the right to know they are menstruating?

But a lot of Canadians will glance at the picture and think, “Aw, diversity, ain’t it a beautiful thing?” – no different from the Sikh Mountie in Prince William’s escort. And even if they read the caption and get to the bit about a Toronto public school separating menstruating girls from the rest of the student body and feel their multiculti pieties wobbling just a bit, they can no longer quite articulate on what basis they’re supposed to object to it. Indeed, thanks to the likes of Ontario “Human Rights” Commission chief commissar Barbara Hall, the very words in which they might object to it have been all but criminalized....


http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/4259/28/

And of course the school board saying they can't tell people how to pray is ridiculous. If prayers breach the TSB's own policy on gender equality then the prayers should not be done on campus during their school hours involving students.

Simple as that.
event horizon
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 15, 2011
The School Board does not seem to understand what the mooslim's ultimate goal is.....
First moozlims ask to have rights where they should not have, then when they get them they ask us to conform to their standards
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herve
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 16, 2011
"We understand this is a very sensitive issue for many, and that there will continue to be differing opinions among members of our communities. However, we believe it is the willingness to have courageous conversations like these that has made Canada the diverse yet cohesive society (it is)."

http://www.tdsb.on.ca/about_us/media_ro ... self=30364


I'm definitely one of those members of the community who has a differing opinion! I don't have a problem with an Islamic service when the congregation rents the space, after school hours, not using any teachers for supervision unless they are also part of the congregation, with the activities not under the rule of the school board. I'm sure the school board would want to change their view if every lunch hour slot during the week was taken up with religious services for all the other groups of religions in the school.
kanelli
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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 16, 2011
kanelli - I'm glad that we've managed to get to the point where we understand each other's opinion. I don't consider you an Islamophobe for your views, and I don't think you'd call me (or the school board) 'Taliban' or an 'stealth jihadist' for our views. At least the school board has mentioned that it is following the law - freedom of religion superseding the education act, it says.

In my first post, I mentioned mountains and molehills. herve's post illustrate this extremely well, don't you think? ;)


Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Canadian public school turned into house of worship? Jul 16, 2011
Two points of view.

Interesting the view from Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress. He and his members seem to be progressive enough to know that Islam needs to make adjustments in order to be part of society and the 21st century.

Apparently at one time the school was accommodating Muslims to leave the school and attend a mosque for prayer, but students either didn't make it to the mosque :o or didn't return to the school after the prayer. :o to continue their studies. It also appears that the school in question is allowing for the prayers to be conducted AFTER lunch, during a learning session.

Toronto School Board runs afoul of Education Act with prayer services

Kristin Rushowy,
Louise Brown and John Goddard
The Toronto Star

Public schools that allow formal prayer services during the day are breaching Ontario’s Education Act, say critics and education experts.

The Toronto District School Board has been embroiled in controversy for allowing an imam to conduct Friday prayer services for Muslim students in the cafeteria at Valley Park Middle School. It argues freedom of religion under the Charter of Rights trumps the Education Act.

“As a public school board, we have a responsibility and an obligation to accommodate faith needs,” education director Chris Spence said Friday.

But one prominent constitutional lawyer said Charter cases have found just the opposite — that religion has no place in public schools.

Meanwhile, others have said if compliance with the act is an issue at Valley Park, that’s easy to address.

“I trained students from Lester Pearson Collegiate near our centre in Scarborough to do that and they’ve been running their own Friday service for years,” said Shaikh Yusuf Badat, imam of the Islamic Foundation of Toronto and director of religious affairs.

“They’ll write sermons about things like honesty and I provide the readings for them from the Qu’ran. There are no hard and fast rules about it having to be led by an imam, and if there are concerns about an outside person coming in, even a Grade 8 student can be trained to deliver a sermon,” he said, adding it would have to be a male.

Valley Park’s prayer services, which until recently operated without complaint, have raised a debate about the place of religion in an increasingly diverse public system. One Hindu group plans protests, and the progressive Muslim Canadian Congress is contemplating legal action to force the board to comply with the Education Act.

“Charter cases have said . . . you cannot accommodate the desire for prayers or religious instruction in a public school,” said constitutional lawyer Ed Morgan, of the University of Toronto.

Something after school, or on weekends, would be fine, he added.


But Muslims must pray at a certain time on Fridays so “we have the duty to accommodate,” said board superintendent Jim Spyropoulos.

The prayer services have also raised the issue of gender rights. One Toronto trustee is concerned about girls being forced to sit at the back of the room, adding the board’s gender equity policy “should be respected.”

Trustee Michael Coteau doesn’t oppose the services but believes the board needs a transparent, consistent policy about what’s allowed given the “mixed messages” of the Education Act, the Charter and human rights code.

Ontario’s Education Act states that “a board shall not permit any person to conduct religious exercises or to provide instruction that includes indoctrination in a particular religion or religious belief in a school.” An exemption is allowed if conducted outside of school hours.

Education Minister Leona Dombrowsky was unavailable for comment despite repeated requests from the Star.

On Friday, her spokesperson said while boards must be “sensitive to religious beliefs . . . it is also important for them to continue the conversation with all parties involved to ensure the accommodations continue to work for both the school and the community.”

Earlier this year, the Star visited Valley Park to observe the prayer service, which runs every Friday from November to March for 30 to 40 minutes during class time after lunch.

Volunteers erected barriers dividing the cafeteria. Boys entered at the front, removed their shoes, forming rows four deep. Girls entered at the back, removed their shoes, donned head scarves and shawls to cover their heads and arms, and assembled behind the barrier.

Menstruating girls sat at the back, permitted to listen but not take part. The service is conducted in Arabic and the school does not monitor what is said.

About 300 to 400 of Valley Park’s 1,200 students take part in the Friday ritual, which parents requested three years ago. Prior, students left school to go to a nearby mosque, but some didn’t make it there and many never returned to class.

The school service was seen as a way to save the lost instructional time and address safety concerns.

“We have people asking what accommodation we provide for Christian students, but the system is set up to accommodate Christian students; Christmas and Easter are already holidays,” said local trustee Gerri Gershon. “Whatever we can do to accommodate the needs of students of other religions, we should do.”

But Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, said students praying on their own would be fine.

“We believe Islam does not make (Friday prayers) compulsory” because they can be postponed until later in the day, Fatah said, adding his group is also opposed to the treatment of the girls.


Education lawyer Stephen Birman said the school could easily comply with the Education Act by having students who want attend the service do so [color=#BF0000]during lunch or spare period.[/color]

The Peel public board, which also serves a significant Muslim population, allows students to miss class for private or small group prayer, but does not permit religious leaders to conduct services.

At least six York Region schools allow students to attend Friday prayers on school property during lunch period so they don’t have to leave to worship and maybe not return.
Bora Bora
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Re: Canadian Public School Turned Into House Of Worship? Jul 16, 2011
Thanks Bora - it is interesting to see the two different points of view.

The school board says the religious freedom act takes precedence in law, so there's a legal case to be made (one way or the other).

Interesting that it is not only one school that allows the service over lunch time - and that their reasons seem to be to maximise student teaching time - which I think IS a good thing.

In my mind, accomodating the religious needs is a good thing - as Gerri Gershon says.

Cheers,
Shafique
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