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Shafique, I don't think that people, who idetify themselves as English, are less "British" than some matollas, who want to introduce Sharia law and Moslem's values on the English soil. For the last "Britishness" is a convinient concept in their attempt to convert the UK to the US-style country of immigrants, where they can live the way, which is the most conviniet for them.

European wrote:Why do you refer to Irish Americans but British Pakistanis?

Because Irish Americans refer to themselves as Irish Americans, and British Pakistanis refer to themselves as British Pakistanis. Pakistani Americans do put the Pakistani bit first though - which is interesting.
(And on wiki, the entries are 'Pakistani Americans' and 'British Pakistanis' respectively, as well as Irish Americans etc)

Thanks for imagining it being difficult walking in my shoes. That is funny - given I have no issues over my identity.

RC - I'm glad you don't have any issues with those who see themselves as less British than the British Pakistanis. Good for you. I just said I found it surprising that white Britons feel less British than the other groups, that is all.

That Muslims are the most British was perhaps the surprising bit of the article for others, but not for me.

Cheers,
Shafique

European wrote:If you have no issues with your identity, why do you feel so threatened by the EDL?

It is fascinating to read about your assumptions and logic.

Why do you think I am threatened by the EDL? I often point out that they are from the shallow end of the gene-pool and are the equivalent of the numpties we have in all communities, including the Muslim one. I speak out against brown numpties and white numpties, but am not threatened by either of them.

I've never denied that the numpties are British - so aren't you just constructing a strawman? The minority of Britons that turn to crime are still British - but British criminals. doh.

Why would speaking out against racist thugs and wannabe terrorists etc be confused by you as a crisis of identity?

The issue with skin colour is clearly one that you have and seem to want to project onto others. Another reason I feel sorry for you.

The facts in the OP must really have bothered you!

Cheers,
Shafique

pappidopoulos wrote:I haven't come across any europeans who claim to be from anywhere else but their home country.


and proud of it!

I haven't come across any Americans or Canadians who would say they are Italian/Swedish/German etc. Only if pushed about thier ethnicity of origin would they tell you where they came from originally.

pappidopoulos wrote:emiratis can only b muslim. emiratis dont let their women marry infidels.

Emirati women do not marry infidels. I agree. And Emiratis do not approve of their men indulging in extra marital hanky panky, but some of the men still do with white infidel women.

pappidopoulos wrote:coming from the resident racist.

So says you. Amen

--- Jul 06, 2012 ---

EDL members that have made the news are numpties, and EDL policies are just peddling old racist tropes that can easily be dismissed by just simple logic. Hence my assessment that they are numpties and from the shallow end of the gene pool. Same goes for the Brits who think blowing up other Brits is somehow a good idea.

You're the one that said I'm somehow threatened by the EDL and am somehow anti-White. I'm certainly anti-white supremacists - and I'm sure you know the difference.

But back to the facts in the OP - the Muslim Britons were the group which felt most British - more so than white Britons. That certainly goes against what you seem to want to believe - calling the British who aren't white 'guests'.

A survey of 40,000 Britons is pretty definitive and credible. It rightly says that the findings challenge the misconceptions about British Pakistanis not willing to integrate etc. You want to believe you are right despite the evidence - fair enough. Its a British trait to be tolerant of other beliefs - such as the earth is flat etc.

However, as I said in the OP - the findings are exactly what I said in earlier threads and exactly matches my personal experience. I am not surprised at the findings at all.

On yesterday's Question Time - Dominic Lawson made the point that his ancestry is Russian - (Nigel Lawson, his father, was the British Chancellor of the Excequer) - so yet another person who would consider themselves British (an so would pretty much everyone else), but whose ancestry is not British. Same could actually be said of the Queen and her German ancestry.

As I said above, it appears that skin colour is a big thing for you when determining whether someone is actually British or is a 'guest' in Britain. That is sad.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:It rightly says that the findings challenge the misconceptions about British Pakistanis not willing to integrate etc.

shafique wrote:EDL members that have made the news are numpties, and EDL policies are just peddling old racist tropes that can easily be dismissed by just simple logic.

You seem like a very confused individual. For starters, you might want to point out the EDL didn't exist until a few years ago.

So it seems they weren't "converted" by the "old racist tropes" but by first hand experience. To deny otherwise is to ignore the statements of EDL members and simple facts when the EDL first formed.

shafique wrote:can easily be dismissed by just simple logic.

Great, I'll test your logic: Those feeling "most British" should logically be least likely to join anti-British terrorist groups.

How many Britons arrested on terrorism charges in the past year have been Muslim (feeling "most British") and non-Muslim (feeling least British)?

How do their arrest numbers compare with their overall general population? Are Muslims *more* or *less* likely to join anti-British terror groups than non-Muslim Britons?

It's a simple test of logic; but I'm guessing you'll be ignoring or playing the race card to avoid answering.

And, lastly, as already pointed out, feeling British does not address actual British values; which is why you never started past threads showing the staggering percentages of Muslims with beliefs the vast majority of Britons would totally reject as barbaric and backward; or the fact the vast majority of British Muslims see themselves as Muslim before being British; completely opposite of non-Muslim Brits.

Thanks for your views about the EDL - there are other threads which deal with them and their recent string of failures eh.

The survey of 40,000 British people had some clear findings -

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to identify with the concept of "Britishness"

and that the findings

rubbish suggestions that ethnic groups are unwilling or unable to integrate into British society and show that fears over the negative impacts of immigration on cultural identity are considerably overstated.

Hence why the title of this thread includes the word 'facts' rather than 'fiction'.

I thank you for your contrarian views - but unfortunately for you the results of the definitive survey agrees with my observations and views, rather than your anti-Muslim viewpoint.

Cheers,
Shafique

PS - and you're labouring under the misconception highlighted:

Pakistanis scored the highest with an average of 7.76 - despite common presumptions that they associate more strongly with their own national identity than to where they are living now.

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to identify with the concept of "Britishness"

rubbish suggestions that ethnic groups are unwilling or unable to integrate into British society and show that fears over the negative impacts of immigration on cultural identity are considerably overstated.

Sorry, there isn't any connection between "feeling Britishness" and integration; otherwise White Britons would be *least* integrated in British society.

Neither you nor the authors of the study thought that one through, did you? But I bet the talking point felt good.

Strange you've avoided my offer to test your logic vis-a-vis people from different ethnic and religious groups joining anti-British terrorist movements.

Why don't you try this statistic:

Religion of prisoners (Table 13)
26. The majority (91%) of terrorist prisoners classified themselves as Muslims. For the 17 domestic extremists/separatists, 3 classified themselves as Church of England, 3 Buddhist and 8 gave no religion or described themselves as agnostic.

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2009/may ... rrests.pdf

Facts vs fiction. Facts win every time.

I can refer you to the statistics about actual terrorist plots and how over 90% are by non-Muslims (including 99 actual, viable bombs by nationlist terrorists in the UK) - but that has been done to death.

The prisons of Britain are indeed full of British criminals - but this does is not what the survey was about.

The survey agrees with my actual experience and backs up my observations and prior posts. Once again your opinions are at odds with the experts and the facts. You choose to disagree with the experts - that's your perogative. I'll stick to the facts and I agree with the experts.

No spin, no hype - just simple facts.

The report's authors say the results rubbish suggestions that ethnic groups are unwilling or unable to integrate into British society and show that fears over the negative impacts of immigration on cultural identity are considerably overstated.

..

Pakistanis scored the highest with an average of 7.76 - despite common presumptions that they associate more strongly with their own national identity than to where they are living now.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The prisons of Britain are indeed full of British criminals - but this does is not what the survey was about.

Indeed, 12% are Muslim from what I gather; which is far higher than their general population.

shafique wrote:I can refer you to the statistics about actual terrorist plots and how over 90% are by non-Muslims (including 99 actual, viable bombs by nationlist terrorists in the UK) - but that has been done to death.

Too bad your figures don't match the reality that most terrorists imprisoned in the UK are Muslim - 91% !

shafique wrote:Once again your opinions are at odds with the experts and the facts.

You mean my opinion was at odds with the previous surveys and experts I introduced to this thread on page 1?

shafique wrote:You choose to disagree with the experts - that's your perogative. I'll stick to the facts and I agree with the experts.

That's quite a boastful claim when the only evidence to support your opinion is ONE survey asking a pointed question.

So far, your opinion is at odds with multiple surveys and facts providing a comprehensive view of ethnic and religious groups in the UK. You've avoided any experiments in logic testing your belief, showing your views are based on faith rather than logic.

shafique wrote:No spin, no hype - just simple facts.

Being stuck in repeat mode is your signal you've lost the debate.

Pakistanis scored the highest with an average of 7.76 - despite common presumptions that they associate more strongly with their own national identity than to where they are living now.

I wonder, how many viewed themselves primarily on religious identity rather than nationality?

81% to 7%, if I recall.

Thank you for your opinion that by stating facts I have somehow lost the debate.

1. Over 90% of actual terrorist attacks in the UK, including 99 viable bombs, are by non-Muslims.

2. This definitive and credible survey is not about criminality but about the fact that your opinions of British Muslims is based on prejudice rather than any real evidence, and I was right to call you out on this belief in previous threads.

No spin, no hype and no strawmen required.

“Many people seem to manage dual identities, and it’s interesting to note that in all the ethnic groups we looked at British identity increases from generation to generation, while within the majority white population many maintain strong non-British identities, such as Scots or Welsh.”

Interesting facts that, I thought.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:blah...blah...blah...

No, you can't address 91% of terrorists imprisoned in the UK are Muslim, 12% of UK prisoners are Muslim or the half dozen surveys you'd rather ignore.

Btw, you need to look up the word "prejudice"..I'll give you a hint, it means to prejudge. My arguments are based on numerous surveys and cold hard facts.

shafique wrote:This definitive and credible survey is not about criminality

You wouldn't conduct a survey on criminality when there are statistics showing the % of terrorists who are Muslim and general prison population that is Muslim.

How can I reconcile this:

The report's authors say the results rubbish suggestions that ethnic groups are unwilling or unable to integrate into British society and show that fears over the negative impacts of immigration on cultural identity are considerably overstated.

With reality?

As pointed out, feeling "British" is not an indicator of how well a group is willing or able to integrate; otherwise White Britons would be least integrated in Britain and 91% of terrorist convictions would be of people of Chinese ancestry.

shafique wrote:No spin, no hype and no strawmen required.

What "strawman" of mine would that be?

Thanks.

So you're not disputing the fact that over 90% of actual terror attacks are by non-Muslims. That about 100 prisoners are Muslim is indeed a fact - no disputing that. (And I note that there 4 Buddhist prisoners on terrorist charges in the latest stats!) We can certainly look at why those committing the majority of terror attacks aren't being arrested and convicted - but that can be done in a separate thread.

This thread is about a survey where 40,000 Britons were surveyed and the findings quoted a few times now.

Cheers,

Shafique

So you're not disputing 91% of convicted terrorists and 12% of the general prison population are Muslim; 78% of Muslims oppose the freedom of speech, 33% support killing apostates, 40% want Britain turned into a theocracy and 81% identify themselves as Muslims rather than British?

In other words, numerous polls and actual markers of integration are ignored for one survey where "Britishness" is never qualified.

Let me know when you convince anyone else who knows these facts of your argument.

I'm not disputing that there about 100 terrorist prisoners who happen to be Muslim in British prison. This really has little to do with the findings of the survey - unless you are saying that the British Muslilms amongst these 100 somehow overturn the findings. I can't see the link myself. You're just trying your usual anti-Muslim trick of hyping the crimes of a few.

(And the fact remains, over 90% of actual terror attacks are not carried out by Muslims)

40,000 people surveyed, including 1000 British Pakistanis - and you're bringing up 2009 statistics about 100 or so prisoners.

Can we stick to facts rather than spin?

Cheers,
Shafique

It's the number of non-Muslim imprisoned terrorists compared to Muslim that speaks volumes - there are far fewer non-Muslim imprisoned terrorists than Muslims.

I think I've already explained the logic in mentioning imprisoned terrorists with regards to your poll and integration in a previous post:

rayznack wrote:Great, I'll test your logic: Those feeling "most British" should logically be least likely to join anti-British terrorist groups.

How many Britons arrested on terrorism charges in the past year have been Muslim (feeling "most British") and non-Muslim (feeling least British)?

How do their arrest numbers compare with their overall general population? Are Muslims *more* or *less* likely to join anti-British terror groups than non-Muslim Britons?

It's a simple test of logic; but I'm guessing you'll be ignoring or playing the race card to avoid answering.

And the number of Muslim prisoners - 12% - is more than 100; though, that too, you persistently ignore or spin.

shafique wrote:(And the fact remains, over 90% of actual terror attacks are not carried out by Muslims)

The facts show Muslims are far more likely to join anti-British terrorist movements than their non-Muslim country-men (perhaps you should also be reminded the % of Muslims in the general population is less than 10%). How does this indisputable fact compare with your claim Muslims are integrated and feel themselves "British" (whatever that means) when they more likely to take part in anti-British activities?

shafique wrote:40,000 people surveyed, including 1000 British Pakistanis - and you're bringing up 2009 statistics about 100 or so prisoners.

It isn't that 107 imprisoned terrorists are Muslim but that they account for 91% of imprisoned terrorists.

If 107 is low, then 17 non-Muslim imprisoned terrorists - out of a much larger general population - is even lower.

shafique wrote:Can we stick to facts rather than spin?

Ok, I'll wait for you to address 107 imprisoned Muslim terrorists to 17 imprisoned non-Muslim terrorists and why Muslims are far more likely to join anti-British terrorist groups if they feel more "British" and integrated.

Real analysis vs talking points.

The facts don't support your beliefs.

Yes, I'm happy to discuss in another thread the signficance of about 100 prisoners in British jails (out of a total of more than 90k). I can't see what that has to do with the survey of 40,000 Britons though. In this thread, it is just a strawman. There are more Paedophile prisoners in British jails - and we know the racial make up of those British prisoners.. but again that's not what this thread is about.

We can certainly have a look at why the majority of terror acts are carried out by non-Muslims and why the 100 or so prisoners don't reflect this.

This thread is about the fact that the definitive survey shows that your views of British Muslims does not fit reality. So please stop trolling this thread now- you've made your statistically irrelevant point.

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to identify with the concept of "Britishness"

Simple, clear and factual.

Cheers,
Shafique

I thought my point was completely relevant. What part don't you understand or disagree with:

rayznack wrote:Those feeling "most British" should logically be least likely to join anti-British terrorist groups.

Are you saying those feeling most British are actually more likely to take part in anti-British activity?

I would have thought those feeling MOST British would be LEAST likely to take part in anti-British activity.

Where is the logic in your belief that those feeling most British would most likely want to harm Britain?

Also, my argument is not a strawman. It would appear you're accusing others of fallacious argumentation you don't properly understand.

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to identify with the concept of "Britishness"

Strange, I would have thought:

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to take part in anti-British activity

is a countervailing fact you would have to address to be taken seriously.

I'm saying that 100 or so prisoners imprisoned over a number of years has little to nothing to do with this survey of 40,000 Britons.

At best you're saying that 100 Muslims (and not all of them are British) are terrorist criminals. That's out of a prison population of 90,000. You could have looked at the numbers of Paedophiles in UK prisons - and the fact that the majority are not Muslim - that is as relevant as looking at the few terror prisoners.

This thread is about a survey of 40,000 Britons and shows that your views of British Muslims is not backed up by reality. You're not seriously trying to hype the fewer than 100 British Muslim terror prisoners are you? Even if you are, this has nothing to do with the 40,000 interviewed.

In short: Fail.

Start a new thread for your theories and extrapolations. You're now just trolling.

Fact remains:

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to identify with the concept of "Britishness"

Your hatred of Muslims is leading you to hype the actions of fewer than 100 criminals in jail. Sad that you try to pass off this weak attempt at a strawman to counter a definitive survey. But that's the best you've got.

Stop hating so much eh. You'll get an ulcer.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:At best you're saying that 100 Muslims (and not all of them are British) are terrorist criminals. That's out of a prison population of 90,000.

Yes, out of a general prison population, narrowing the field down to anti-British offenders seems logical. What other criminal activity is a better marker for anti-British sentiment than terrorism convictions? Is being imprisoned for...road rage a better indicator for anti-British sentiment than anti-British terrorist activity?

91% of terrorist prisoners being Muslim speaks volumes to me, especially when logically there should be an inverse relationship between feeling most British and anti-British activity.

It's a simple question: Do you agree or disagree with the above logic?

That there are "only" 107 imprisoned Muslim terrorists ignores there are far fewer imprisoned non-Muslim terrorists when non-Muslims supposedly feel less British than their more-likely-to-be-convicted-for-terrorism Muslim counterparts.

shafique wrote:You could have looked at the numbers of Paedophiles in UK prisons - and the fact that the majority are not Muslim - that is as relevant as looking at the few terror prisoners.

Right, because paedophilia is as relevant to anti-British views as anti-British terrorist activity.

shafique wrote:This thread is about a survey of 40,000 Britons and shows that your views of British Muslims is not backed up by reality.

You mean the reality that 91% imprisoned for anti-British activity are Muslim or the half dozen polls with rather unpleasant results you've been persistently avoiding?

shafique wrote:You're not seriously trying to hype the fewer than 100 British Muslim terror prisoners are you?

Is it logical to assume that those most "pro-British" are least likely to engage in anti-British terrorist activity?

Answer the question: Yes or No?

If not, then why are 91% of imprisoned anti-British terrorists Muslim?

I totally disagree with your logic that fewer than 100 British Muslim prisoners reflects on the findings of the survey. By your logic, the fact that most convicted paedophiles are white males should reflect on the white male British population. It is a silly argument to make.

This thread is about the findings of a survey, not your wild extrapolations of the crimes of fewer than 100 British Muslims.

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to identify with the concept of "Britishness"

Stop the hate, eh. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I totally disagree with your logic that fewer than 100 British Muslim prisoners reflects on the findings of the survey. By your logic, the fact that most convicted paedophiles are white males should reflect on the white male British population. It is a silly argument to make.

I honestly don't even know where to begin with this poor excuse for an argument.

Why does the British Muslim community produce the majority of anti-British terrorist convictions if a) they feel themselves most British and b) make up 5% of the national population?

shafique wrote:By your logic, the fact that most convicted paedophiles are white males should reflect on the white male British population.

So a majority population accounts for a majority of convictions? That is unlike terrorist convictions where a small minority account for an overwhelming majority of convictions.

I also see you're not thinking very clearly. A poll claiming men are less inclined toward rape would have to stack up against the reality the vast majority of rapists are male.

This poll claims Muslims feel most British but the reality is they take part in the vast majority of anti-British terrorism activity where they make up a barely noticeable 5% of the general population.

Are you this blind/incapable of basic common sense?

shafique wrote:I totally disagree with your logic that fewer than 100 British Muslim prisoners reflects on the findings of the survey

Thanks, but I didn't ask that. That would be a *strawman*. I've asked you numerous times if "feeling British" is inversely proportional to anti-British terrorist activity.

So why does 5% of the population account for 91% of convicted anti-British terrorists when I'm to believe they feel the most British?

Why is it that over 90% of terrorist acts are carried out by non-Muslims? Can we infer that non-Muslims are less British than the Muslims who carry out less than 10% of terrorist acts?

Or put another way, Muslims carry out fewer than 10% of terror attacks in the UK - so yes, it appears that feeling British is inversely proportional to carrying out terrorist attacks. But it would be a silly argument to try and make about the minority who are criminals amongst the Muslims and non-Muslim British population.

Or, why do the white male population produce the majority of paedophiles and s.ex offenders? Isn't this a un-British crime - or is it a British crime? If it is un-British, then why is it that the majority (over 90%?) of Paedophiles and s.ex offenders are white - is this why they consider themselves less British than the British Muslims?

How silly an argument your strawman is.

Fact still remains:

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to identify with the concept of "Britishness"

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Can we infer that non-Muslims are less British than the Muslims who carry out less than 10% of terrorist acts?

Be sure to use this evidence when a poll comes out making an opposite claim. It speaks quite a bit more when 5% of a population account for 91% of a particular crime.

shafique wrote:Or put another way, Muslims carry out fewer than 10% of terror attacks in the UK

Last I knew Muslims were fewer than 10% of the general population. I see you're not great with stats.

shafique wrote:But it would be a silly argument to try and make about the minority who are criminals amongst the Muslims and non-Muslim British population.

Jee, this was already explained to you last time. What don't you understand, exactly?

We're looking at ratios of Muslim and non-Muslim. This same comparison would be used when responding to an article claiming women are more inclined to commit rape than men. We would look at the reality that men are far more likely to be rapists. The fact that rape is committed by a minority of the population isn't relevant; it's the ratio of male and female rape that is.

This was already explained to you. What don't you understand? (You may not catch on quickly, so take a few minutes to pause on the above scenario)

shafique wrote:Or, why do the white male population produce the majority of paedophiles and s.ex offenders?

Because males are more likely to be pedophiles and whites are the majority.

Are you repeating this poor excuse for an argument? Again?!

Now, if a poll came out claiming women were more inclined to be pedophiles, would you cite pedophilia conviction statistics showing men are far more likely to be pedophiles than women?

shafique wrote:Isn't this a un-British crime - or is it a British crime? If it is un-British, then why is it that the majority (over 90%?) of Paedophiles and s.ex offenders are white

Go ahead and quote actual statistics showing 90% of pedophiles are white. Whites are under represented in committing sex crimes and rape; so I'd be be very surprised to find out you were right.

Even if true, it's a small deviation from the white population: 88% to 90% vs 5% to 91%

But this is neither here nor there. If a poll came out tomorrow saying Pakistani Muslims were most inclined toward pedophilia, you would be the first claiming whites are more likely in the real world to be pedophiles.

This is the amazing part that boggles the mind.

shafique wrote:How silly an argument your strawman is.

Wow. You don't even know what a strawman is *after* I've repeatedly told you none of my arguments have been strawmen. Look up the definition before you throw around a term you don't know its meaning.

Please just give me two statistics to show that you're not engaging in your usual hype:

1. How many of the 100 or so Muslim terrorist prisoners are British Muslims?

2. How many non-Muslim terrorists who committed 90+% of the terrorist attacks in the UK in the past 10 years have been caught and jailed (and for which of the hundreds of terrorist acts were they convicted of)?

It appears that you wish to hype a small number of Muslim criminals to deny the results of a definitive survey of 40,000 Britons. It is a silly strawman argument - but let's see whether you can answer the 2 simple questions or whether you just try to divert attention with more strawmen.

Cheers,
Shafique

A definitive survey of Britons that shows that Muslim Britons are more likely to consider themselves British may be so but,

Did the survey ask the Indigenous British think of them their alien ways living off christian government subsidiaries the terrorist & criminal newspaper headlining s

shafique wrote:1. How many of the 100 or so Muslim terrorist prisoners are British Muslims?

It's still more than the number of non-Muslim terrorist prisoners.

Just like the ratio of male/female rapists is what's important to consider in discussing a survey claiming women are more inclined to commit rape than men: compare the number of male:female rapists to test such a survey.

Thought that was pretty much common sense.

shafique wrote:It appears that you wish to hype a small number of Muslim criminals to deny the results of a definitive survey of 40,000 Britons

You must take the cake for daftness.

The same argument would be used to compare any survey claiming females are more inclined to commit rape/murder/tax evasion to statistics for any of the crimes actually committed.

If a poll claimed females were more inclined than men to commit tax evasion, actual statistics would be cited showing the exact opposite is true.

Why do I need to repeat this for you? What did I tell about taking a few moments to ponder what is being written?

2 questions, no answers. Hmm.

Cheers,
Shafique