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From the BBC - the voice of Britain, fair and balanced news:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8141206.stm

'Sober, gloomy and realistic'

By Frank Gardner
Security correspondent, BBC News

Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth has given his first major speech in the job. He said Britain's safe future was dependent on achieving success in Afghanistan - but that would not come without a price in lives lost.

There were no huge surprises in Bob Ainsworth's speech. He has been an understudy for this job for some time, working under John Hutton and has long been immersed in the whole issue of Afghanistan.

Broadly speaking, it was a sober, fairly gloomy and quite realistic speech.

Put simply, Britain is going to take more casualties in Afghanistan and we're going to be there for some time.

The military put these things in terms of operations. Herrick is the codename for Afghanistan - Telic was the codename for Iraq.

Britain is currently on Herrick 10 and every six months that number goes up. They are currently planning for Herrick 15 and there are probably plans for further ahead than that, certainly as far as 2012.

The intention then is to keep thousands of British troops there for a very long time - or at least the foreseeable future - until Afghanistan is stabilised. And that's not going to happen quickly.

+
'Credibility gap'

Mr Ainsworth - and John Hutton before him - have tried to set out clearly why Britain is in Afghanistan in the first place.

But there is a credibility gap here. Most of the country doesn't really understand why we are there.

Indeed, there are holes in the government's argument too. If we are trying to stop al-Qaeda building bases from which to attacking us - well, al-Qaeda doesn't have proper bases in Afghanistan.

Their bases are on the Pakistani side of the border.

The idea that if you have forces in Afghanistan it'll stop al-Qaeda attacking Britain doesn't completely hold water because ministers have said themselves that 75% of the terror plots in this country are linked back to Pakistan.

Really, it would be more accurate to say Nato is trying to keep al-Qaeda out of Afghanistan, while admitting that it has successfully transplanted itself elsewhere.

Moreover, the very fact that there are Western troops in Afghanistan is an incentive, a recruiting agent, for al-Qaeda and other jihadist groups to go and fight the West and drive them out.

It is certainly quite a complicated jigsaw.

+
Bad governance

The priority for Britain and other international troops is to stabilise Afghanistan and to improve people's standard of living.

But it's not just about military success; it's about improving governance too.

Afghanistan is in many provinces quite badly governed with very corrupt policemen who are taking bribes and extorting money from people.

To look at the big picture, Nato and the Brits think they can win pretty much every tactical engagement that they encounter the Taliban in.

Sometimes with difficulty - because they are a very tenacious enemy - but with superior weaponry, training, air support and so on the Taliban can be beaten on the ground.

Crucially, though, that victory is only at a tactical level.

The bigger picture is that fighting is only a small part of the problem in Afghanistan. One of the major problems is bad governance.

Ordinary Afghans are having to decide if life is better in areas contested by Nato or in areas controlled by the Taliban, where they might have to live under draconian rules but at least things are stable.

We should not just be asking ''should Britain be in Afghanistan", we should be asking "do you think ordinary Afghans should be abandoned and thereby forced to just 'give in' to the Taliban"?

Should their women be forced to wear the burqa? Should schools be closed and their daughters denied education and advancement? Should the Afghan people be denied the basic enjoyment of music?

Irrespective, for a moment, of your opinions on 'why the West went into Afghanistan', what about all of this?



http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/2002 ... -burqa.htm
Women tell own stories of Taliban oppression.
No memoirs of world tragedy are more wrenching than those based on the recollections of a nation's young people. (etc.)



http://www.allvoices.com/news/3457792
Cape Times, South Africa: Taliban attacks musicians at Afghan wedding
Source: Androscoggin News
Jalalalbad, Afghanistan

Taliban fighters beat musicians, shaved their heads and left them tied to trees overnight because they performed at an Afghan wedding, a village tribal chief said yesterday, a sign of the fighters' growing influence. While in power from 1996-2001, the Taliban banned music for being un-Islamic.

++

Any views?

It sounds like Russian joke.

- May I help you.
- No, thanks. I will die myself.

Red Chief wrote:It sounds like Russian joke.

- May I help you.
- No, thanks. I will die myself.

Reading your tag, i couldn't figure out who's who. Any help with that RC?

With pleasure.

I am a little bit tired digging your grave but it's almost finnished. "Needle" is fully loaded. I can start right away, Signora.

I will miss you.

Red Chief wrote:With pleasure.

I am a little bit tired digging your grave but it's almost finnished. "Needle" is fully loaded. I can start right away, Signora.

I will miss you.

Once again, you missed the sarcasm!! Like I didn't know who you were referring to!!! You walked right into that one.

You are such an idiot.

Please don't leave, to a degree you do serve a purpose, you're fodder for our entertainment. But then again, we don't entertain you, so maybe your should .

Well that was some choice of characters RC.

This is brilliant. Time to write the first Dubai Forums Play...

To Signora:

Too many words but a long explanation is the main feature of a loser. Swallow it.

Red Chief wrote:It sounds like Russian joke.

- May I help you.
- No, thanks. I will die myself.

True, it's very dark.

Hey I see I am starring in the theatre now. Très amusant Chief, I am enjoying your slightly higher quality of posts nowadays.

I'm sure your appearance is also listed in the programme. Punchinello for sure!

Misery Called Life wrote::lol: Well that was some choice of characters RC.

This is brilliant. Time to write the first Dubai Forums Play...

There is no my copywrite on the characters. With your talent you can easiely write a play. Go ahead! I believe in you!

Red Chief wrote:To Signora:

Too many words but a long explanation is the main feature of a loser. Swallow it.

Well you must be choking on your words Chief. So much so that you are constantly dribbling.

the longer they live there, more and more of british or nato soilders will die. simple as that.

is the british public ready to watch their sons and daughters die in afghanistan for a wasteless war?

Speedhump wrote:We should not just be asking ''should Britain be in Afghanistan", we should be asking "do you think ordinary Afghans should be abandoned and thereby forced to just 'give in' to the Taliban"?

Should their women be forced to wear the burqa? Should schools be closed and their daughters denied education and advancement? Should the Afghan people be denied the basic enjoyment of music?

Irrespective, for a moment, of your opinions on 'why the West went into Afghanistan', what about all of this?



http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/2002 ... -burqa.htm
Women tell own stories of Taliban oppression.
No memoirs of world tragedy are more wrenching than those based on the recollections of a nation's young people. (etc.)



http://www.allvoices.com/news/3457792
Cape Times, South Africa: Taliban attacks musicians at Afghan wedding
Source: Androscoggin News
Jalalalbad, Afghanistan

Taliban fighters beat musicians, shaved their heads and left them tied to trees overnight because they performed at an Afghan wedding, a village tribal chief said yesterday, a sign of the fighters' growing influence. While in power from 1996-2001, the Taliban banned music for being un-Islamic.

++

Any views?

Does any of the above get solved by guns & bombs?


Make them homes and provide them with jobs. Other alternative than joining a fight or planting drugs.


the war is not a bout the music or the burqa or the enjoyment of music. cant you see ?

uaekid wrote:

Speedhump wrote:We should not just be asking ''should Britain be in Afghanistan", we should be asking "do you think ordinary Afghans should be abandoned and thereby forced to just 'give in' to the Taliban"?

Should their women be forced to wear the burqa? Should schools be closed and their daughters denied education and advancement? Should the Afghan people be denied the basic enjoyment of music?

Irrespective, for a moment, of your opinions on 'why the West went into Afghanistan', what about all of this?



http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/2002 ... -burqa.htm
Women tell own stories of Taliban oppression.
No memoirs of world tragedy are more wrenching than those based on the recollections of a nation's young people. (etc.)



http://www.allvoices.com/news/3457792
Cape Times, South Africa: Taliban attacks musicians at Afghan wedding
Source: Androscoggin News
Jalalalbad, Afghanistan

Taliban fighters beat musicians, shaved their heads and left them tied to trees overnight because they performed at an Afghan wedding, a village tribal chief said yesterday, a sign of the fighters' growing influence. While in power from 1996-2001, the Taliban banned music for being un-Islamic.

++

Any views?

Does any of the above get solved by guns & bombs?


Make them homes and provide them with jobs. Other alternative than joining a fight or planting drugs.


the war is not a bout the music or the burqa or the enjoyment of music. cant you see ?

I think your comment just proves that you didn't read and understand the BBC article correctly.

"The bigger picture is that fighting is only a small part of the problem in Afghanistan. One of the major problems is bad governance.

Ordinary Afghans are having to decide if life is better in areas contested by Nato or in areas controlled by the Taliban, where they might have to live under draconian rules but at least things are stable."


Also you ignored my comment "Irrespective, for a moment, of your opinions on 'why the West went into Afghanistan'". I did not want this to turn into another tired old thread about the reasons for the war. I thought we could dicuss something more interesting, like what Afghans really need. Is it Taliban or is it something else? If it's not Taliban rule they need, tell me how to get rid of them without fighting?

Shame you want to keep playing the same old record kid

As you said, they need help to grow legal cash crops, but they DO also need education for their females, and they do need music, we all do. It is one thing that lifts us above the animal and feeds our spirit. Taliban control won't give them these things, will it?

Come on, try again.

I guess you should think how to save your arses there. It's exactly what you do sitting in your harrisons and keeping Kabul and a few big cities. The small casualties (if the inf. is true) show it.

It isn't your land. You cannot bomb vilages by drons and aircrafts and build school and fight for rights of women at the same time. If you don't have security you cannot do anything else. As a result of your hypophetical noble forces you would receive a huge immigration in the end. Afgani is the biggest community in Russia from non-CIS nations.

You continue countining Talliban as a small terrorist organization. It's the biggest mistake. I don't think that you can establish stable peace there without their partisipation.

I'm sorry, Speedy, but all those calls sound like propoganda for domestic (British) use only. It was made to persuade Brits continue this pointless for Brits war which they were involved by their Big Brother.

Speedhump wrote:


















Also you ignored my comment "Irrespective, for a moment, of your opinions on 'why the West went into Afghanistan'". I did not want this to turn into another tired old thread about the reasons for the war. I thought we could dicuss something more interesting, like what Afghans really need. Is it Taliban or is it something else? If it's not Taliban rule they need, tell me how to get rid of them without fighting?

Shame you want to keep playing the same old record kid

I'm playing nothing speedhumps and I can't understand politics

like I said before , lets take a step back and ask ourselves what are Taliban ? they are a bunch of leaders with many followers .... why is it so many of them Afghani youth follow their leads ? because they made them believe the west is the enemy and as you can see you are helping them prove their point ... if you want to get rid of Taliban you have to start deep from the rout and ask your self how did Taliban emerged ? to fight the enemy . well ,who is the enemy ? it's those ppl dropping bombs on us for no reason ? well ok lets fight back and get revenge.

instead , the UN should've taken a diff approach on getting to those followers by sucking them into the more moderated cities by building them homes and providing them jobs ..

now what would Taliban be within a couple of years ? nothing but leaders whom they got no one to recruit .

This is how you get rid of Taliban .

You see maybe you see Taliban as an enemy to the world but to them follower it’s the other way around, Taliban provides all kind if adds to the families out their !! shocking ? yes but the media is only showing the other side of Taliban… but you have to understand that there are ppl who actually want to be with them for their good side !! that’s where you should attack them , provide those adds in a better way, reach your hand not your gun.

We know that the US did not have philanthropic aims when they invaded, but now they are there, my question is 'what good can be made to come of it'?

Unfortunately you can't just walk into a country ruled by Taliban and say 'Hi, we're the U.N., here's five billion dollars, go plant some whatever, let women get an education, re-open a few schools, etc. IT WON'T HAPPEN. The Taliban have a vested interest (as you said) in making the West and the UN look like devils. They won't hand out money given by the West like that.

Taliban very clearly have to be removed first, I guess the only options are either by war or revolution.

Your line that Taliban are good and kind to Afghans sounds so lovely, except when you consider their beliefs, like 'a women should either be in the home or the graveyard'. Compare it to the very modern attitude towards women which is starting to become accepted in the UAE, and you must see that you can't treat all countries the same.

Please read this very interesting article in today's The National for treatment of women in many Muslim countries (the journalist confims in the article that she wears modest and respectable clothes when in Muslim countries):

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090 ... 80/OPINION


Hamida Ghafour

July 10. 2009 9:52PM UAE / July 10. 2009 5:52PM GMT

Hey, woman, wash my clothes!”

“How much do you cost?”

When I heard men shout these insults on two separate occasions as I walked down the street in Kabul and Abu Dhabi, respectively, I was stung.

Being stared or yelled at is just part of the experience of working and living in this region. But I never get used to it. Indeed women all over Asia and the Middle East are harassed constantly.

Western women are targets, but so are our Arab, Indian, Nepali, Bangladeshi and Pakistani sisters. We are stared at, called names and sometimes assaulted by men. Which is why part of me cheered when Al Bawadi Mall in Al Ain announced earlier this week that labourers had been banned on weekday evenings and weekends following a litany of complaints about harassment.

The Emirates is the most female-friendly country in the Middle East. The Government’s efforts to encourage women to use public spaces is admirable. The Abu Dhabi beach was quickly divided into two sections last year after women expressed their discomfort at gangs of labourers roaming about and leering. Emirati men are courteous. They never stare.

By contrast, sexual harassment levels in Egypt are endemic. In the Punjab and Karachi, images of women on billboards are defaced or just banned."

Also:

"Many women wear a hijab to prevent unwanted attention but it doesn’t always work. In Egypt , harassment is part of daily life. In 2006, women in Cairo organised a demonstration with the slogan “the street is ours” to protest about the groping and taunting. In the 1990s, Moroccan women went on strike for the same reason.

Afghan women wear a burqa for safety: it is a barrier between them and the abuse. I sometimes wished I had one to slip over my head."

Etc...read the whole article. It does also say that Emirati men generally are polite and well behaved towards women. My wife also would echo this. Younger men of course can misbehave, just like any country in the world

afghanistan is a dirty country with dirty politics.

taliban or no taliban, the person who owns many tanks, weapons and men rules the afghans. they take their black turbans off and put on the white ones for the Americans. They have 2 faces and they can switch over whenever it is convienant to them.

its a BLOODY mess. Only thing thats making USA stay there is because of natural gas, oil and minerals in that Country. They dont care about the development in that country, because it is a failed country. they know if they invest there, tommorow some warlord will come and bomb it up unless he gets his share of money or if he gets his share of money for the road that runs through his land. yep its true. seen it and witnessed it myself.

AS for OBL, why do you think he was able to escape Tora Bora? I guess he was able to give loads of money to his enemy i.e the northern alliance and just walk off into the Hindu Kush or other parts of Afghanistan. Money talks. And if your enemy is poor and you offer them $100,000.00 do you think they will not take it? So can the Americans really trust the Northern Alliance or other warlords? I guess they cant.

What USA doesnt understand is that Afghans are revengeful bunch of ppl. its in their blood. its in the phushtun blood. if usa bombs an innocent family by mistake or whatever, if their is a survivor there is 99% chance that survivor will take arms against USA. I mean who wouldnt?

if you dont have a job, your country is in a mess, your country has been taken over by an un-islamic force and your family has just been killed by USA, would you just sit there and do nothing?

Good luck to the Americans. More bombings, more suicide bombings will create more and more bin ladins. not today, not tommorow but yes down 20 to 30 years these ppl will re-surface and create another 9/11 (if it really was carried out by AQ).

whats really puzzling is that nearly all the ppl who carried out 9/11 were either arabs or pakistanis. Yet i didnt see any arab countries or pakistan been attacked. but afghanistan was? why? because al qaeda has training camps there? ok fair enough. but why put afghanistan in a civil war when no afghan took part in 9/11?

what the americans didnt do was to stop the funding and yet they still havent. AQ is still being funded. by who? thats what USA needs to adress.

i guess they wont cos they attacked Afghanistan not for OBL or AQ but for minerals, natural gas and oil.

Speedhump wrote:We know that the US did not have philanthropic aims when they invaded, but now they are there, my question is 'what good can be made to come of it'?

Unfortunately you can't just walk into a country ruled by Taliban and say 'Hi, we're the U.N., here's five billion dollars, go plant some whatever, let women get an education, re-open a few schools, etc. IT WON'T HAPPEN. The Taliban have a vested interest (as you said) in making the West and the UN look like devils. They won't hand out money given by the West like that.

Taliban very clearly have to be removed first, I guess the only options are either by war or revolution.

Your line that Taliban are good and kind to Afghans sounds so lovely, except when you consider their beliefs, like 'a women should either be in the home or the graveyard'. Compare it to the very modern attitude towards women which is starting to become accepted in the UAE, and you must see that you can't treat all countries the same.

Please read this very interesting article in today's The National for treatment of women in many Muslim countries (the journalist confims in the article that she wears modest and respectable clothes when in Muslim countries):

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090 ... 80/OPINION


Hamida Ghafour

July 10. 2009 9:52PM UAE / July 10. 2009 5:52PM GMT

Hey, woman, wash my clothes!”

“How much do you cost?”

When I heard men shout these insults on two separate occasions as I walked down the street in Kabul and Abu Dhabi, respectively, I was stung.

Being stared or yelled at is just part of the experience of working and living in this region. But I never get used to it. Indeed women all over Asia and the Middle East are harassed constantly.

Western women are targets, but so are our Arab, Indian, Nepali, Bangladeshi and Pakistani sisters. We are stared at, called names and sometimes assaulted by men. Which is why part of me cheered when Al Bawadi Mall in Al Ain announced earlier this week that labourers had been banned on weekday evenings and weekends following a litany of complaints about harassment.

The Emirates is the most female-friendly country in the Middle East. The Government’s efforts to encourage women to use public spaces is admirable. The Abu Dhabi beach was quickly divided into two sections last year after women expressed their discomfort at gangs of labourers roaming about and leering. Emirati men are courteous. They never stare.

By contrast, sexual harassment levels in Egypt are endemic. In the Punjab and Karachi, images of women on billboards are defaced or just banned."

Also:

"Many women wear a hijab to prevent unwanted attention but it doesn’t always work. In Egypt , harassment is part of daily life. In 2006, women in Cairo organised a demonstration with the slogan “the street is ours” to protest about the groping and taunting. In the 1990s, Moroccan women went on strike for the same reason.

Afghan women wear a burqa for safety: it is a barrier between them and the abuse. I sometimes wished I had one to slip over my head."

Etc...read the whole article. It does also say that Emirati men generally are polite and well behaved towards women. My wife also would echo this. Younger men of course can misbehave, just like any country in the world

but in the civilized world sexual harassment is way higher than any place else !! why are you abusing your women speedhumps ? I don't get it, whats this has to with the issue ? women are home bcz they are house wives !! don't you have this back home ? Isn’t there a possibility that they choose to stay home bcz there is not much to do in the mountings areas?

what is it with you ppl and the burqa now a days , can't you see it is just a custom wear ppl ?

It's rather hypocratic to bring up women's rights, which most people in Afganistan don't know about, in time when Afghans are killed in thousands.

Sitting in home is probably safer.

Red Chief wrote:It's rather hypocratic to bring up women's rights, which most people in Afganistan don't know about, in time when Afghans are killed in thousands.

Sitting in home is probably safer.

Who is doing the killing? Not me, how am I a hypocrite?

I think from your general comments in these forums that women count for little in your world. You are a huge mysoginist I think, therefore this comment of yours should come as no surprise.

uaekid wrote:

Speedhump wrote:We know that the US did not have philanthropic aims when they invaded, but now they are there, my question is 'what good can be made to come of it'?

Unfortunately you can't just walk into a country ruled by Taliban and say 'Hi, we're the U.N., here's five billion dollars, go plant some whatever, let women get an education, re-open a few schools, etc. IT WON'T HAPPEN. The Taliban have a vested interest (as you said) in making the West and the UN look like devils. They won't hand out money given by the West like that.

Taliban very clearly have to be removed first, I guess the only options are either by war or revolution.

Your line that Taliban are good and kind to Afghans sounds so lovely, except when you consider their beliefs, like 'a women should either be in the home or the graveyard'. Compare it to the very modern attitude towards women which is starting to become accepted in the UAE, and you must see that you can't treat all countries the same.

Please read this very interesting article in today's The National for treatment of women in many Muslim countries (the journalist confims in the article that she wears modest and respectable clothes when in Muslim countries):

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090 ... 80/OPINION


Hamida Ghafour

July 10. 2009 9:52PM UAE / July 10. 2009 5:52PM GMT

Hey, woman, wash my clothes!”

“How much do you cost?”

When I heard men shout these insults on two separate occasions as I walked down the street in Kabul and Abu Dhabi, respectively, I was stung.

Being stared or yelled at is just part of the experience of working and living in this region. But I never get used to it. Indeed women all over Asia and the Middle East are harassed constantly.

Western women are targets, but so are our Arab, Indian, Nepali, Bangladeshi and Pakistani sisters. We are stared at, called names and sometimes assaulted by men. Which is why part of me cheered when Al Bawadi Mall in Al Ain announced earlier this week that labourers had been banned on weekday evenings and weekends following a litany of complaints about harassment.

The Emirates is the most female-friendly country in the Middle East. The Government’s efforts to encourage women to use public spaces is admirable. The Abu Dhabi beach was quickly divided into two sections last year after women expressed their discomfort at gangs of labourers roaming about and leering. Emirati men are courteous. They never stare.

By contrast, sexual harassment levels in Egypt are endemic. In the Punjab and Karachi, images of women on billboards are defaced or just banned."

Also:

"Many women wear a hijab to prevent unwanted attention but it doesn’t always work. In Egypt , harassment is part of daily life. In 2006, women in Cairo organised a demonstration with the slogan “the street is ours” to protest about the groping and taunting. In the 1990s, Moroccan women went on strike for the same reason.

Afghan women wear a burqa for safety: it is a barrier between them and the abuse. I sometimes wished I had one to slip over my head."

Etc...read the whole article. It does also say that Emirati men generally are polite and well behaved towards women. My wife also would echo this. Younger men of course can misbehave, just like any country in the world

but in the civilized world sexual harassment is way higher than any place else !! why are you abusing your women speedhumps ? I don't get it, whats this has to with the issue ? women are home bcz they are house wives !! don't you have this back home ? Isn’t there a possibility that they choose to stay home bcz there is not much to do in the mountings areas?

what is it with you ppl and the burqa now a days , can't you see it is just a custom wear ppl ?

Here's how it goes. Sexual harassment is reported in the west, so you know all about it. How much of it goes unreported in the Muslim world? You really have no idea and you know that the secrecy is the worst crime and you also know that it is normal to hush these things up for Arabs, just like you do with all other things you are ashamed of.

You are truly blind. This article was written by a woman. Did you even bother to read it? I am 100 percent certain you didn't. And look at her name. Does it look Western to you?

Did I mention the burqa? No, but you trot out the same boring old comments over and over again. It was the writer that mentioned it. As I said to you, you are unable to change the record you play. This woman is crying about the treatment that women receive in Kabul, Saudi, Egypt, etc. and all you can do is say that women are happy and should stay as housewives.

Shame on you.

Speedhump wrote:Who is doing the killing? Not me, how am I a hypocrite?

I think from your general comments in these forums that women count for little in your world. You are a huge mysoginist I think, therefore this comment of yours should come as no surprise.

Don't take it personal. We discussed article, right? I expressed my opinion about article, not you. It's not necessary to be so defensive.
I've always respected you.

I am just a little sad that you feel that because Afghanistan has other problems, then the Talibani oppression of women is insignificant.

It was you who mentioned the word hypocritical, concerning the highlighting of this evil. As I am putting forward the cause, then by extension you must be calling me a hypocrite, there is no way around that!

Your witness! (legal phrase)

I said what I said that security is the main problem. Nobody can decide any other problem if there is the permanent threat for the life in Afghanistan.

All those articles remind me British propoganda about raping Belgian women by German soldiers at the beginning of WWI. The Kingdom has always been very strong in that.

All sides use propaganda in war. All.

'The first casualty of war is truth' .

Besides, just because something is used as propaganda, it doesn't mean that it isn't true.

Dr. Samuel Johnson (English 18th century author and lexicographer) said it first: 'Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages.' (from The Idler, 1758).

Speedhump wrote:

uaekid wrote:

Speedhump wrote:We know that the US did not have philanthropic aims when they invaded, but now they are there, my question is 'what good can be made to come of it'?

Unfortunately you can't just walk into a country ruled by Taliban and say 'Hi, we're the U.N., here's five billion dollars, go plant some whatever, let women get an education, re-open a few schools, etc. IT WON'T HAPPEN. The Taliban have a vested interest (as you said) in making the West and the UN look like devils. They won't hand out money given by the West like that.

Taliban very clearly have to be removed first, I guess the only options are either by war or revolution.

Your line that Taliban are good and kind to Afghans sounds so lovely, except when you consider their beliefs, like 'a women should either be in the home or the graveyard'. Compare it to the very modern attitude towards women which is starting to become accepted in the UAE, and you must see that you can't treat all countries the same.

Please read this very interesting article in today's The National for treatment of women in many Muslim countries (the journalist confims in the article that she wears modest and respectable clothes when in Muslim countries):

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090 ... 80/OPINION


Hamida Ghafour

July 10. 2009 9:52PM UAE / July 10. 2009 5:52PM GMT

Hey, woman, wash my clothes!”

“How much do you cost?”

When I heard men shout these insults on two separate occasions as I walked down the street in Kabul and Abu Dhabi, respectively, I was stung.

Being stared or yelled at is just part of the experience of working and living in this region. But I never get used to it. Indeed women all over Asia and the Middle East are harassed constantly.

Western women are targets, but so are our Arab, Indian, Nepali, Bangladeshi and Pakistani sisters. We are stared at, called names and sometimes assaulted by men. Which is why part of me cheered when Al Bawadi Mall in Al Ain announced earlier this week that labourers had been banned on weekday evenings and weekends following a litany of complaints about harassment.

The Emirates is the most female-friendly country in the Middle East. The Government’s efforts to encourage women to use public spaces is admirable. The Abu Dhabi beach was quickly divided into two sections last year after women expressed their discomfort at gangs of labourers roaming about and leering. Emirati men are courteous. They never stare.

By contrast, sexual harassment levels in Egypt are endemic. In the Punjab and Karachi, images of women on billboards are defaced or just banned."

Also:

"Many women wear a hijab to prevent unwanted attention but it doesn’t always work. In Egypt , harassment is part of daily life. In 2006, women in Cairo organised a demonstration with the slogan “the street is ours” to protest about the groping and taunting. In the 1990s, Moroccan women went on strike for the same reason.

Afghan women wear a burqa for safety: it is a barrier between them and the abuse. I sometimes wished I had one to slip over my head."

Etc...read the whole article. It does also say that Emirati men generally are polite and well behaved towards women. My wife also would echo this. Younger men of course can misbehave, just like any country in the world

but in the civilized world sexual harassment is way higher than any place else !! why are you abusing your women speedhumps ? I don't get it, whats this has to with the issue ? women are home bcz they are house wives !! don't you have this back home ? Isn’t there a possibility that they choose to stay home bcz there is not much to do in the mountings areas?

what is it with you ppl and the burqa now a days , can't you see it is just a custom wear ppl ?

Here's how it goes. Sexual harassment is reported in the west, so you know all about it. How much of it goes unreported in the Muslim world? You really have no idea and you know that the secrecy is the worst crime and you also know that it is normal to hush these things up for Arabs, just like you do with all other things you are ashamed of.

You are truly blind. This article was written by a woman. Did you even bother to read it? I am 100 percent certain you didn't. And look at her name. Does it look Western to you?

Did I mention the burqa? No, but you trot out the same boring old comments over and over again. It was the writer that mentioned it. As I said to you, you are unable to change the record you play. This woman is crying about the treatment that women receive in Kabul, Saudi, Egypt, etc. and all you can do is say that women are happy and should stay as housewives.

Shame on you.

you seems upset speedhumps, I'm not taking a personal attack on you !!

now, Sexual harassment is what it is and it does not matter if it's being reported or not, it accrue and that's the point , you brought it to justify the issue in hand, didn't you ?

No one is blind of anything speedhumps and I'm not denying anything, it's just that you brought a general issue to the subject and I'm trying to tell you that it is not one of the top 100 reason why Taliban should be changed.

But if the west including you in this matter speedhumps really cares , answer me this and let me believe in you, since when Tliban was in the region? who created and supported them ? where were you since that date ?

I bit you don't have an answer to all of the above , so lets just drop it.

regarding the women in Taliban speedhumps, you have to understand the culture , believes and the life style, what do you expect uneducated women in mountain areas and in WAR ZONE to do , will you be realistic ? look at the hall picture there ! because of years of conflict between western countries that part of the world did not evolve and get developed... they were caught in the middle of cross fire, the west used them for their dirty interests and needs. So to me it's the west world cause not Taliban to begin with. .

women issues are global, and women are still fighting their rights world wide and being abused, if you don't wana believe it and only see the other part of the world that has this problem then I'm sorry you are the one with a problems here.

I don't have a problem and women's problems in the Middle East ad the Subcontinent as a whole are far greater than in Europe, North America, Civilised Asia, you name it.

I'm not attacking you personally either, but I am so disappointed you can't have one of these conversations without over and over and over asking about why Taliban are there, why the UN are there, etc, etc. That absolutely did not have to cloud the issue that I tried to talk about of what needs to be done in Afghanistan NOW to help it. Afghanistan has been a battleground long before Europe took a hand either. Stop trying to lay all the blame at one door.

There is nothing to 'drop' as you say, because that was not even a subject of my thread.

And who is blaming 'mountain' women for anything? Not me. I am saying Afghan women (in cities as much as 'mountains') want to be educated, they want their daughters to go to schools and universities. Ther being provincial has nothing whatever to do with it, they still want better lives for their daughters, and the Taliban kill them for it. That's not a 'global' occurrence, now is it? You are just laying smokescreens again.

It is a very big reason why the Taliban should go, it is part of their generally debased view of Islam. I believe that your low opinion of women does not allow you to accept that.

Speedhump wrote:Besides, just because something is used as propaganda, it doesn't mean that it isn't true.

It COULD be truth. I'm not sure, because at first you copied and pasted the articles writthen by BBC, the agency I blindly trust. There were nothing about "horrror of Talliban".
Then you chose American and S. African source, which based on story of one or two witnesses. I can't trust in these blindly.

Anyway any propaganda has the goal. For me this propaganda sounds like - "We have to shed blood like water to protect some educated women".

The BBB article didn't mention women. I did. My whole point in this thread has not been to discuss why the invasion, there have been enough thread devoted almost totally to that. I wanted to ask, for a change, what needs to be done and how can it be done to help Afghanistan now. That includes treatment of women, but is not limited to it.

No BBC propaganda here, read the first (BBC) article again, it is very 'warts and all'.