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shafique · Jul 26, 2011

An oft quoted, but seldom believed, myth by the Israelis who wish to continue the Military Occupation of land captured in 1967 is that the '67 borders' are indefensible.

Whilst this myth is well documented to be nothing more than propaganda, it is refreshing to see this message being clearly given in Washington by Israeli statesmen and Military men. I'm hoping fanbois will pause before they trot out the usual 'oh, but you're anti-Semitic for reporting the bleeding obvious' or 'these are all self-hating Jews' etc.

Perhaps this time we'll get an acknowledgement that the usual Israeli propaganda is threadbare and doesn't stand up to scrutiny?

Former Israeli diplomats in Washington: 1967 borders are defensible

The former ambassadors and decorated soldiers met with U.S. National Security Council in Washington with an appraisal of Israel's security needs significantly different from the prime minister's.
By Natasha Mozgovaya

A group of former Israeli army officials and diplomats visited Washington Monday, claiming that a peace agreement with the Palestinians is urgent in spite of, and because of, regional turmoil, and that contrary to what Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu claims, the 1967 borders are, in fact, defensible.

The group visited the White House on Monday and met with the National Security Council Director for Middle East and North Africa Steven Simon, and were to have meetings later in the evening with acting Middle East envoy David Hale and officials at the Pentagon.

Among the group participants were Major General (Ret.) Natan Sharoni, a battery commander in the Sinai Campaign and a battalion commander during the Six Day War who later became Head of Planning for the IDF and Ambassador Alon Pinkas, who served as Consul General of Israel in New York.

Joining the two was Ambassador Ilan Baruch, who served with the Israeli Foreign Ministry for more than thirty years and stirred a public debate in Israel when, upon his resignation, he penned an open letter critical of Israeli government policies.
...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... e-1.375235

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Jul 26, 2011

shafique wrote:Perhaps this time we'll get an acknowledgement that the usual Israeli propaganda is threadbare and doesn't stand up to scrutiny?

Starting a thread to only expect acknowledgement of your viewpoint and that other arguments donot stand scrutiny is very strange.

“Do we actually need to control the Jordan Valley to confront these threats? To move one or two IDF divisions to seize control of the Valley takes up to 36 hours. With our deterrence and mobility, there is no problem with it. If it will be a demilitarized zone – if something happens, there is enough time to get there.”

So according to him, 67 armictice lines are only defensible if the Palestinian state is demilititarized and Israel is allowed to seize control when it deems necessary.

shafique · Jul 26, 2011

Stating facts isn't strange to me.

I'm aware of the usual Israeli argument - but it is well documented propaganda that has no basis in reality. Other myths are that Golan Heights are being held because of security from missiles -when the reality is they want to control the water on this Syrian land. Golan was captured in 67 too, so is relevant here.

As for the quote - it is talking about the Jordan Valley being a demilitarized zone, not the whole of Palestine. :roll:

You may be aware that there was a similar condition when Sinai was given back to the Egyptians.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Jul 26, 2011

shafique wrote:I'm aware of the usual Israeli argument - but it is well documented propaganda that has no basis in reality.

Its not my argument, its the argument of people you seem to agree with.

shafique · Jul 26, 2011

I think you are perhaps having another one of your bouts of comprehension failure. I suggest you reread and post specifically what you believe is fact and not propaganda.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Jul 26, 2011

shafique wrote:I think you are perhaps having another one of your bouts of comprehension failure. I suggest you reread and post specifically what you believe is fact and not propaganda.

I do believe this is a quote from the atrticle of your OP;

“Do we actually need to control the Jordan Valley to confront these threats? To move one or two IDF divisions to seize control of the Valley takes up to 36 hours. With our deterrence and mobility, there is no problem with it. If it will be a demilitarized zone – if something happens, there is enough time to get there.”

shafique · Jul 26, 2011

Yes, the quote talks about a de-militarized zone - like the Sinai.

This will also protect the Palestinians from Israel as well.

The myth proposed by Israel is that the borders are not defensible. The experts disagree.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Jul 26, 2011

shafique wrote: The experts disagree.

An "expert" does recognize the strategic value of the Jordan Valley and claims 67 armistice lines are defensible if Israel can control the Valley whenever it wants.

shafique · Jul 26, 2011

Well, I guess if you are agreeing with the expert - then that is progress. I too agree with him.. in totality.

The Israeli excuses for not giving back land captured in 1967 on security grounds are exposed for what they are.. a cynical land grab. You can dress it up as you like it, but at least it is clear what they are saying when you read the whole article.

Cheers,
Shafique

capsicum · Aug 16, 2011

shaf keeps nagging, Israel keeps building.
Give up man.
http://news.yahoo.com/israel-oks-277-ho ... 05227.html

shafique · Aug 16, 2011

^What has Israel's illegal colonies got to do with the myth exposed in the OP? :roll:

Even Israelis are losing patience with the colonialists - but fanbois and loons always come out to celebrate Israeli crimes it seems. They are nothing but predictable.

Cheers,
Shafique

Mahmoud04 · Aug 17, 2011

shafique wrote: You may be aware that there was a similar condition when Sinai was given back to the Egyptians.

Cheers,
Shafique

hi Shaf, wish Ramadan is good with you

just a small correction, Sinai wasn't really given back to Egyptians, it was TAKEN back by Egyptians from our cousins

and Sinai isn't fully demilitarized, it is divided in 3 zones A, B, C.. only zone C ( I think 40 km from Israeli boarders) are demilitarized.

PS: no lands were given back to anyone or taken from anyone with power.

shafique · Aug 17, 2011

^Thanks for the correction Mahmoud.

Ramadhan Kareem to you too - may you get the utmost blessings from this month.

Cheers,
Shafique

Mahmoud04 · Aug 17, 2011

Thanks Shafique

just now realized I meant to right Without rather than with

PS: no lands were given back to anyone or taken from anyone withOUT power.

shafique · Dec 20, 2011

This thread about Israel's 1967 borders is relevant to the recent discussions over the historical fact that Palestine was a well defined country before 1948, a country under British rule, but a country with defined borders, immigration controls, a government - and indeed a population of Palestinians of various religions and none.

Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon · Dec 20, 2011

Strangely, before 1967, did the UN ever refer to Jordanian and Egyptian rule of "Palestinian" land as illegal?

If not, the Israelis are negotiating with the wrong people. Jordan seems to be the rightful owners of the the West Bank, not some people referring to themselves as Palestinians.

shafique · Dec 20, 2011

That's an interesting question eh - after all, Egypt occupied Gaza, Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Israel had captured land that wasn't in the UN partition plan as being part of Israel (55% of Palestine was allocated in 1947, at the end of hostilities in 1948 Israel had control over 78% - i.e. it had won 23% in the war).

However, whatever you and I may think the legalities of ownership of the land Israel captured in 1967 are - there is no ambiguity in international law, all these questions have been completely cleared up from a legal perspective:

that all the key legal arguments over Palestinian rights have already been adjudicated in their favour by the International Court of Justice, or World Court. These, of course, stand alongside the multiple UN resolutions clearly condemning Israel's Occupation and aggressions.

dubai-politics-talk/demystifying-the-palestinian-issue-t25254.html

This was from 2008 and the facts haven't changed since then (and FD and I both agreed with the conclusions resulting from these facts).

Some in Israel may wish these facts aren't the case - but in reality they are. The territories aren't disputed under law, they are under Military Occupation/Control.

Cheers,
Shafique

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67 Borders Are Defensible: Israeli Experts Say

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