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^ it is a general term :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-American_princess

(And I have met some!)

Is it true that wearing a burqa in Mecca in haram?

Get ready chief I'll bombard you...

Redchief wrote:
I cannot agree that Moslem women don't want to be attractive outside home and you achived the main goal of 1984.

who would you wanna be attractive for outside home chief? strangers?
I think it's not the people outside but the immediate family members that one should try to appear as pleasant and well kept as possible..

In the west a lot of men divorce their wifes or cheat becouse wife doesn't care about herself and likeings of husbund at home in their privacy. so much done in public outside that when she arrives home often feels exhausted and hear saying "live me alone" and "do it yourself"- kind of behaviour which is rather unavoidable under pressure. Why don't you admit that society in the west became so materialised and commercial that this puts much burden on women to look and be something other than themselves? Why? is that becouse women are super human machines?

When you are married to one decent and nice woman Why should there be just as many of them hanging around on wild display, readily available to chase and later to convience into illegitimate relationship?.

When you are happily married why should another woman outside feel that if she is capable to seduce you with her beauty to date than you as a husband should one day be able to divorce the wife at home?

Unfortunately this side of life in the west is working in reverse order..
It's only islam that regulates family life and affairs in proper fashion to keep it's welfare and maintenance for everbody's happiness including society!

but anyhow lets come back to the question...why should women have to show her beauties,put up artistic make up and washed with perfumes when going outside?
Is it to show people what class you are or where you belong to? Is it to show how rich you are, making the less fortunate feeling guilty and inferior? Is it the only way to open gates for privileges and acceptance faster in society?
You don't associate and give job to a woman becouse she is attractive?
You don't associate and give job to a woman becouse she is s.exy?
You don't associate and give job to a woman becouse she can be taken to bed?
You don't associate and give job to a woman becouse you can talk horrid,if she has flirty style?

Do you?

so why? can you pls explain? I'd like to know the phyche behind this?

a woman in her islamic dress code can be very elegant,graceful and well kept..I have seen so many... and I kind of admire them and their adherence in this age when it's very diffucult to resist western life style that being pumped all the time.
This is where I find the breaking point to manifest ones belief in the laws of a creator therefore religion..

As a proof I read in media that ME women spent on parfume much more money than everywhere else

If they lived in siberia, I am kind of sure they wouldn't bother with perfumes outside either...

Berrin wrote:Get
It's only islam that regulates family life and affairs in proper fashion to keep it's welfare and maintenance for everbody's happiness including society!

I have already replied on this question. That's what your law IS. I believe that any life, not only family one, should regulate by love and respect only, as one strolling philosopher said long time ago. I personaly don't need any paper for that. It cannot stop anything.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Is it true that wearing a burqa in Mecca in haram?

I presume you meant 'is haram' rather than 'in haram' ('haram sharif' of 'masjid haram' refers to the mosque around the Kaaba - so 'in haram' could mean 'around the Kaaba')

If so, then no - to my knowledge - wearing a burqa in Mecca (either in the Kaaba's area or in the city generally) is not forbidden. (I've not heard of any ruling that says it is banned - so there's a chance there is a ruling somewhere that I'm not aware of).

What you may be thinking of is that during a pilgrimage to Mecca (either the lesser pilgrimage - Umrah - or the annual Haj), the worshippers wear ceremonial white sheets - and when in this state, the face of the lady is uncovered.

Whilst Umrah can be done throughout the year, you can also visit Mecca and the Kaaba and not be on pilgrimage - i.e. you would dress normally. If you do a search for photos of the Kaaba you'll generally see a mixture of people, men and women, some in ihram (white) and others dressed normally, including women in burqas.



Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:If you do a search for photos of the Kaaba you'll generally see a mixture of people, men and women, some in ihram (white) and others dressed normally, including women in burqas.

Interesting. This is one source amongst others saying burqa's are not allowed in Mecca:

Muslim organization urges Ottawa to ban burkas, niqabs in public

The Muslim Canadian Congress called on the federal government to prohibit the two garments in order to prevent women from covering their faces in public - a practice the group said has no place in a society that supports gender equality.

"To cover your face is to conceal your identity," congress spokeswoman Farzana Hassan said in a telephone interview, describing the issue as a matter of public safety, since concealing one's identity is a common practice for criminals

Considering the fact that women are in fact forbidden from wearing burkas in the grand mosque in Mecca, Islam's holiest site, it hardly makes sense that the practice should be permitted in Canada, she said.

Berrin, let's look at it from a westerner's point of view.

The majority of Arabs are very materialistic. I don't know of one westerner here in Dubai who has a parking area at his villa that looks like a car showroom - at least 5 high end cars on display.

Have you ever seen some of the bling that women who cover wear?? Bling, bling, bling.

In Western society many marriages consist of a two-career marriage. But raising the children, keeping home, laundry, seems to fall to the woman. Then you have women who may not actually be following a career but may be working in Walmart because the family needs the income. Men think as long as they get up in the morning and go to work, come home, eat dinner, sit in front of the TV, their day is over and they have fulfilled their duties as a husband and at the end of the day expect their working wives to complete their night time duty.

Western women are not suppressed and are free thinking.

In western culture for every man that steps outside a marriage, there is a woman who does the same thing and in most cases it's for the same reason.

I have seen so so many local married men who take mistresses here. I have seen locals who marry in the heat of the moment, usually to non-Arab women, and wake up one day and decide it wasn't for him. Next!!!! When it is said that the prostitution trade exists because it caters to tourists - sure, blame the need on tourists. That is a joke!!!

Arab women are made to accept a husband having a 2nd, 3rd, 4th wife, and if he divorces one there is a slot for a replacement. At the end of his life he could if fact had 10 ten wives, through marriage and divorce. There are Arab women who are fully aware of their husband's infidelities or having a mistress on the side and they do what is expected - turn a blind eye to it. Western women would never tolerate such arrangements. It seems to me that Arab men don't even feel they need to justify their behavior, where you give westerners, specifically men, an excuse/reason to do it. Arab men do it because they can.

I have seen Arab marriages in trouble due to the newly found wealth that fell into their laps. Trouble generally stems from the husbands who shifted from what they held valuable to another type of value. There has been a very big breakdown in families over the years because the men tend to live a seperate life. But I will say, Friday seems to be "Daddy Day". Granted many of them go home after work, but that's generally to eat and change to go out for the evening. More and more local women are finding a night life as well (going to dinner, stroll the malls, shopping, etc.). I guess it's easy to creat a separate life when you have so-called nannies to raise your children. "Nannies" who contribute actually nothing to the growth and development of children. If they really cared about their children they would hire a proper nanny who would instill values, teach them manners, educate them and provide healthy activity for the children. What they got for their slave wages were baby sitters, nothing more.

Don't knock Western society when Arab society has it's own flaws when it comes to marriage, family, infidelity, multiple marriages and treating women as if they are second class citizens. Suppressing a women is not giving her equal rights.

I can look at my western society and see alot of flaws, what I think has gone wrong. It doesn't mean I have to live those flaws or change or disregard my values. But if you could step back a minute you may just see where there are flaws in Arab/Islamic society. If there was such a thing as a perfect religion, then the world would practice that one perfect religion.

I say "live and let live".

FD - sorry, I'm not sure. The article specifically says burqas are banned in the Grand Mosque - and I can't honestly remember whether I saw women wearing veils in there when I visited. There were certainly women wearing abayas - but to be honest I don't recall whether there were women wearing veils or not.

Certainly, if one is on pilgrimage, then the face should be uncovered - so given this fact I guess women who would normally wear a veil may dispense with it in the mosque, but I'm unaware of a ban. Google only says that the face veil is compulsory (under Saudi law) in Mecca and Medina (but not in Jeddah - and that is noticeable there).

Perhaps others who've been to Mecca recently or who know about a specific law/teaching can spread more light.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I can't honestly remember whether I saw women wearing veils in there when I visited.

Thats quite a back-paddle from:

shafique wrote:If you do a search for photos of the Kaaba you'll generally see a mixture of people, men and women, some in ihram (white) and others dressed normally, including women in burqas.

shafique wrote:Certainly, if one is on pilgrimage, then the face should be uncovered

Why?

Why do people get all emotional about the ban of burqa's in Belgium, while there is actually a ban of it in the holiest of holiest of Islam???

Flying Dutchman wrote:Why do people get all emotional about the ban of burqa's in Belgium, while there is actually a ban of it in the holiest of holiest of Islam???

I personally don't get all emotional about the ban - I said I find the justifications quite amusing. Some people do indeed get quite emotional for the ban, and others get emotional against the ban - I find the former position to be amusing, and believe the latter should just chill.

As to why women and men are allowed to mix freely at Islam's holiest site? Well, that is simply because it is the most holy site and is not restricted to men only. A quick search will explain why. The rites of pilgrimage and that women on pilgrimage don't cover their faces is also explained.

(FD, you may also want to re-read what I said about the banning of the burqa - especially the part about 'to my knowledge' and the invitation for any reference that said otherwise)

BTW - another titbit of information that I only found out about this week. The earliest record of women covering their faces is actually from ancient Athens (not that women were particularly liberated there, their counterparts in Sparta certainly were, but women in Athens were practically invisible in society - and are recorded to be wearing veils in society)
http://www.amazon.com/Aphrodites-Tortoi ... 0954384539

Greek women routinely wore the veil. That is the unexpected finding of this meticulous study, one with interesting implications for the origins of Western civilisation. `The Greeks', popularly (and rightly) credited with the invention of civic openness, are revealed as also part of a more Eastern tradition of seclusion. Llewellyn-Jones' work proceeds from literary and, notably, from iconographic evidence. In sculpture and vase painting it demonstrates the presence of the veil, often covering the head, but also more unobtrusively folded back onto the shoulders. This discreet fashion not only gave a priviledged view of the face to the ancient art consumer, but also, incidentally, allowed the veil to escape the notice of traditional modern scholarship. From Greek literary sources, the author shows that full veiling of the head and face was commonplace. He analyses the elaborate Greek vocabulary for veiling and explores what the veil meant to achieve. He shows that the veil was a conscious extension of the house and was often referred to as `tegidion', literally `a little roof'. Veiling was thus an ingeneous compromise; it allowed women to circulate in public while mainting the ideal of a house-bound existence. Alert to the different types of veil used, the author uses Greek and more modern evidence (mostly from the Arab world) to show how women could exploit and subvert the veil as a means of eloquent, sometimes emotional, communication.

Cheers,
Shafique

So Bora you got everything off your chest… but hey do feel better cause I enjoyed the glorious slap coming from miss lordess. But you got it all wrong If you remember I was defending women not male and my defence is for all women regardless of where they are situated.
Just thinking you can be good activist Bora why don’t you take part in such things at whereever you think you can make difference?
Do you think this could motivate you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_in_Islam

Berrin, let's look at it from a westerner's point of view.

In this thread we are discussing burqa and western point of view on this issue…I had to write my last post the way it is becouse RC tought it was imposed on women to look least attractive outside.

The majority of Arabs are very materialistic. I don't know of one westerner here in Dubai who has a parking area at his villa that looks like a car showroom - at least 5 high end cars on display.

Westerners are staying on contractual terms on Arap lands. And I assume not many westeners would take joy in permanent life in such Islamic cultures to show off their wealth? If they did I am sure they too would race with Araps. But hey how else you think Araps can host and please their petro millionaire associates or just general westerners coming over to work? bedouin style? Remember araps, well more like Muslims renowned as backward medieval dessert man of the world.. So with the wealth they own, they show the world their potential. You have no excuse to complain. See you already talking about it, just spread the word around faster pls.

Have you ever seen some of the bling that women who cover wear?? Bling, bling, bling.

They can wear them and they are intitled to own and be gifted such blings by their husbands.
However their displays outside- in public is haram.

In Western society many marriages consist of a two-career marriage. But raising the children, keeping home, laundry, seems to fall to the woman. Then you have women who may not actually be following a career but may be working in Walmart because the family needs the income.

In my mind women are made to perform as super machines at home and work is a huge debate to start off in the west? I feel If all married women stayed at home nurturing children, educating, taking part in non-profit civil society activities/work then this would make more industrial jobs available for men to stay in jobs and opportunity to double their income keeping both man and his family happy and well provided. At the moment both men and women race over fewer jobs under declining salaries and conditions…Men living on dole while women working cannot be the best solution for all. So noone should underestimate their gender duties given them from creation. If this continues you’ll see more stressed out women even more mothers to rude drunken, drug addict teenagers while men surrenderes themselves to liberty of women competing on par, doing exactly the same kind of behaviour to one another.

Men think as long as they get up in the morning and go to work, come home, eat dinner, sit in front of the TV, their day is over and they have fulfilled their duties as a husband and at the end of the day expect their working wives to complete their night time duty.

This is the attitude of someone who is utterly lazy and selfish, not necessarily the attitude of a good caring, responsible father/husband figure of Muslim or non-muslim man.
But hey do ladies realize and make sure that their attitude and duties towards husband must be more than service at night?
i.e. I know a lot of men who would dye for a wife who knows how to welcome, who knows how to converse in pleasant, comforting manner or style and is very imaginative or creative to find ways to attract husbands attention and find ways to put themselves into social cycle etc etc.? A lot of the time men divorce or loose interest because woman can’t keep up with it all or don’t do much to furnish themselves to be a good match or partners.

I should also say that If husbands are boring and don’t know their responsibilites then I blame it on mothers doing too little to mould and shape their little boys to prepare for their future wifes? Children must have father/mother figures as role models to resemble in marriage.

I have seen so many local married men who take mistresses here. I have seen locals who marry in the heat of the moment, usually to non-Arab women, and wake up one day and decide it wasn't for him. Next!!!! When it is said that the prostitution trade exists because it caters to tourists - sure, blame the need on tourists.

So it’s no different than elsewhere in the world. Again it’s parents duty to teach children right and wrong from childhood, the purpose of life, family values, personal traits, how to survive and lead a life in social/business environment, how to poise and self restrain etc etc. Being a father isn’t all about making money, being a mother isn’t all about coking and washing.
Raising and enriching a childs character is no different than an art object that is worth millions of dollars. A beautiful piece of pottery sculpture sitting on a window shelf was a mud first, had to be moulded, coloured and fired before it came to that stage of its beauty and price.

Arab women are made to accept a husband having a 2nd, 3rd, 4th wife, and if he divorces one there is a slot for a replacement.

This is no different than having one wife to show on display while continuing to have many mistresses, one night stands, illegitimate relationship outside- away from every bodies eyes? Seems like a common problem of all male, and it’s not particular to one society.. Muslim way is only different in that later wifes can also become legal with maintenance/hereditary rights and so on. But you do know that in islam more than one wife is not encouraged or allowed without the consent of first wife.

It seems to me that Arab men don't even feel they need to justify their behavior, where you give westerners, specifically men, an excuse/reason to do it. Arab men do it because they can.

When man sets his mind to cheat, no where on earth you can stop him from doing this, its regardless of his race, religion, nationality…There are certain groups of men I find never suitable for marriage, and they shouldn’t marry. But there are a lot of men who do it because no one told them they cannot, nor they are thought to ask/take advice when they are adults, men simply follow the suit… be it right or wrong in this case..
Somebody has to teach them the right way around. If not mother, it must be father, if not father, it’s state and social services or religious scholars or what have you.

I have seen Arab marriages in trouble due to the newly found wealth that fell into their laps. Trouble generally stems from the husbands who shifted from what they held valuable to another type of value. There has been a very big breakdown in families over the years because the men tend to live a seperate life.

I relate and sympathize. As I said modern extravagant life style continuously being pumped in the Muslim world. If you allow more than what one/society can handle then the situation you describe becomes the end result.

I can look at my western society and see a lot of flaws, what I think has gone wrong. It doesn't mean I have to live those flaws or change or disregard my values.

I tell you one thing, if those values you can’t disregard were values to be regarded than we would never fall into the trap and flaws in western world. So it must be either those values or the people that doing wrong?
If people are doing wrong then what do you think can save them?
I agree that there is not enough work or activity done to raise consciousness in the muslim world, not many opportunities to learn and apply knowledge for the benefit of less able. But I don’t see how too much freedom doing any good to western societies either.

But if you could step back a minute you may just see where there are flaws in Arab/Islamic society. If there was such a thing as a perfect religion, then the world would practice that one perfect religion.

In any case, if you read quran i.e the second surah straight after the first chapter Fatiha which is called Al-Baqara you would indeed be left with this bitter feeling that there was/is a strong abuse/violation of Muslim Women's rights, due to a) an outdated, limited interpretation of the text, or some mullahs who seem to collectively fear women or should we say the Feminine c) by Muslim men themselves and the societies they rule and d) last but not least by the women themselves...

What comes out from overall reading of this Surah are the concepts of

- sincerity
- honesty/truthfulness
- equity
- goodness
- fairness
- justice
- kindness
- generosity
- compassion
- charity
- humility
- purity/cleanliness
- protection/self-defense

And what is clearly admonished against are

- concealment
- untruthfulness/lies/dishonesty
- inequity
- arrogance/haughtiness
- gratuitous aggression
- transgression

If you yourself care to read you would realize that the context has not changed much since that first revelation... either in the west or the east...

But then that same Surah tackles that too...when God says to the effect -- and many say that they are believers but they believe not.......

I find it fascinating that the mode of female attire, particularly in the UAE, that is designed to cover, and therefore hide the feminine attractions of a woman, has been taken and modified and adapted by those ladies to appear more attractive to men?

A short time in any mall will show you many a young local lady with an abaya that is cut and tailored to highlight her shapeliness, decorated and adorned with jewels and topped off with a sheila woven with a designer brand such as Luis Vuitton or Burberry. She may also be wearing a diamond encrusted watch by Rolex, a selection of rings and earrings liberally splattered with carats, carrying a handbag from Chanel and teetering on footwear from Jimmy Choo or Ferragamo. She wafts expensive perfume as she passes and her make-up is as perfect as any Vogue cover shot.

So tell me, is this an expression of covering up her feminine attractions? Why go to all this trouble if she is not trying to show off her attributes?

No.

This is human nature and transcends any religious wrote or ideals. Whether the Imam or the Kora'an or anyone else likes it or not, we are 'animals' and conditioned by nature. Any attempt to suppress that nature will always be circumvented by plain and simple mammalian instinct. Male and female are driven to make themselves appear more attractive to the opposite s.ex no matter how hard you try to contain it. Guys try to appear more handsome and have their khandura tailored to accentuate their broad shoulders, go to the male spa for grooming treatments and drive expensive machinery to show how successful they are and therefore ideal breeding material to propagate the species and follow the Darwinian principle of 'survival of the fittest'. There is no difference between these symbolic adornments and the pouting, ritualised, formalised mating dances of musk oxen, birds of paradise or parrot fish.

Having spent a considerable time in the outlying regions of Saudi Arabia, where women are strictly suppressed and virtual prisoners in the home, unable to venture outside unless covered from head to foot in untailored black, I encountered a situation where, when putting on a regional festival, I was told that the sizable car parking area must be completely floodlit to 'avoid any chance of women finding somewhere to fornicate' taught me that this suppression leads to 'nature finding a way'. No matter how plain and ordinary Arabic men try to make their women, they will always find a way to get around the rules as they are driven by forces far stronger than the niquab or the burkha can contain.

Getting on a flight from Jeddah to London, I was pleasantly surprised to see that, as soon as the flight left the ground, many women went to the bathroom covered from head to foot in black and emerged wearing the finest of fashionable clothes and many of them were extremely attractive! Why hide these objects of beauty? They want to be seen and appreciated for what they are: beautiful women and beautiful human beings.

I would ban the burkha simply for this reason!



Knight

Shafique, why are not you tired to make up lame excuses and dig fossilized $hit? Vase painting - LOL.

How about Hellenistic statues which shows beaty of (NAKED !!!) woman's body? I don't see anything even close in Moslem World.

Continue trying. Next atempt could be in prehistoric period. Apes with veil?

Dubai Knight wrote:So tell me, is this an expression of covering up her feminine attractions? Why go to all this trouble if she is not trying to show off her attributes?

No.

That is why Islam firstly emphasises 'modesty of the mind' and 'modesty of the eyes' - the intention should be pure and the onlookers should avert their eyes.

To answer your question - of course these ladies are being hypocritical and are pushing the boundaries of the dress code and making a mockery of the reason for covering up the 'normal' clothes when one goes out in public.

To my mind, it is as pointless as the Jewish orthodox women who wear elaborately permed/made-up wigs because the religious laws say that married women can't show their hair. It's another case of the letter of the law being followed rather than the spirit (it seems obvious that the injunction was to cover up, not to draw attention by wearing lifelike wigs)

The enjoyment you received by feasting your eyes on the ladies who uncloaked is what their husbands enjoy at home. Islam merely presents a way of life which reserves these delights for the home rather than for general consumption. It's a value judgement whether one agrees with this view or takes the view that women's beauty should be enjoyed by all and sundry. As a man, you are quite right to point out that our biology means that we are eager onlookers.

Islam just chooses to draw the line at the home and bedroom, the victorians agreed with this line (more or less) but soon turned hypocritical in what they did behind closed doors (and there are parallels here too in the Mid East, if the stories we hear are true) - and in 20th century there was a 'revolution' that set women free to dress scantily in public as a sign of their liberation. I've often expressed my admiration for the men who convinced women that this was a liberating move - genius!

Cheers,
Shafique

Red Chief wrote:Shafique, why are not you tired to make up lame excuses and dig fossilized $hit? Vase painting - LOL.

How about Hellenistic statues which shows beaty of (NAKED !!!) woman's body? I don't see anything even close in Moslem World.

Continue trying. Next atempt could be in prehistoric period. Apes with veil?

Hey, I made the specific point that it was Athenian women who were the first in history recorded to wear the veil. I also made the point that at the same time, the Spartan women were more liberal - the women wrestled naked breasted, exercised naked, could take toy boys to procreate etc.

Don't shoot the messenger - just look up how women were viewed and dressed in Athens and show me the information is wrong.

Pre-Islam, women in Arabia were treated just like the Athenian women - and probably showed more flesh than their Athenian counterparts!

Cheers,
Shafique

Red Chief - see the highlighted references from Homer:

The use of the veil is often seen either as an Islamic invention and tradition, thus dating from the period after Mohammed's death in 632 or an Eastern tradition stemming from Syria, Palestine and Byzantium which, through the Arab conquests and the spread of Islam, became common in Arab and neighbouring countries. However, the tradition is "western" as well. In Homer's world the veil, kredemnon, relates to a chaste woman. When Penelope descends from her room to the court-yard, which is dominated by suitors, she does not go alone and she always ensures that she covers her face:

And from her upper chamber the daughter of Icarius, wise Penelope, heard his wondrous song, and she went down the high stairway from her chamber, not alone, for two handmaids attended her. Now when the fair lady had come to the wooers, she stood by the doorpost of the well-built hall, holding before her face her shining veil; and a faithful handmaid stood on either side of her (Od. 1.328-336).

Of course, Penelope, as an attractive "widow", has to attend carefully to the correct moral stance, but that applies to Nausicaa and her handmaidens, too, when they go to the river to wash the laundry and afterwards enjoy a leisurely time:

Then when they had had their joy of food, she and her handmaids, they threw off their headgear and fell to playing at ball, and white-armed Nausicaa was leader in the song. (Od 6, 99-100).

http://www.hist.uib.no/antikk/antres/Womens%20life.htm
(Worth reading in full for the details of women in classical times)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:To answer your question - of course these ladies are being hypocritical and are pushing the boundaries of the dress code and making a mockery of the reason for covering up the 'normal' clothes when one goes out in public.

I don't think so. Hypocrat is definitely another person. The women were supressed and have no choice or opportunity to change their belief. Burgka is Ok, but nice dress - no! It's the men's world. Right?

As for Penelopa she waited her beloved husband and lived without protection in faces of seekers, who acted very aggressively. That's why she weared veil. It's ocasional dress.

Anyway it's XXI century now, when women achived a lot. Why do you dig 3000 years back? It has only academic value now. Do you write thesis?

Hey, I'm just a firm believer that if we don't know our history, we are bound to repeat mistakes.

I thought it was an intersting fact that the veil pre-dates Islam and was worn by Athenian women - it surprised me to uncover this fact. (I was aware that the Athenians waged wars - almost annually, kept slaves etc- but not that the women wore veils)

I agree it has academic value today - but would not not characterise it as 'only academic value'!

In a thread about the banning of veils, it does have a delicious irony though - doesn't it? Your initial reaction that it wasn't true spoke volumes

Cheers,
Shafique

Dubai Knight wrote:
So tell me, is this an expression of covering up her feminine attractions? Why go to all this trouble if she is not trying to show off her attributes?

No.

Blame it on the male chauvinist founders of capitalism. Nicely managed to put women into the centre point of consumption. So much so that core values of religion and modesty had to be ceased in favor of darwinist/atheist/feminist propaganda to nourish it.
They exploited enough women in the west and now it's the turn of muslim ladies on muslim lands or whereever they live.

The Debauchery of American Womanhood

On my wall, I have a picture of a Muslim woman shrouded in a burka[1].

Beside it is a picture of an American beauty contestant, wearing nothing but a bikini.

One woman is totally hidden from the public; the other is totally exposed. These two extremes say a great deal about the clash of so-called “civilizations.”

The role of woman is at the heart of any culture. Apart from stealing Arab oil, the impending war in the Middle East is about stripping Arabs of their religion and culture, exchanging the burka for a bikini.

I am not an expert on the condition of Muslim women and I love feminine beauty too much to advocate the burka here. But I am defending some of the values that the burka represents for me.

For me, the burka represents a woman’s consecration to her husband and family. Only they see her.

It affirms the privacy, exclusivity and importance of the domestic sphere.

The Muslim woman’s focus is her home, the “nest” where her children are born and reared. She is the “home” maker, the taproot that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training her children, providing refuge and support to her husband.

In contrast, the bikinied American beauty queen struts practically naked in front of millions on TV. A feminist, she belongs to herself. In practice, paradoxically, she is public property. She belongs to no one and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is auctioning herself all of the time.

In America, the cultural measure of a woman’s value is her sex appeal. (As this asset depreciates quickly, she is neurotically obsessed with appearance and plagued by weight problems.)

As an adolescent, her role model is Britney Spears, a singer whose act approximates a strip tease. From Britney, she learns that she will be loved only if she gives sex. Thus, she learns to “hook up” rather than to demand patient courtship and true love. As a result, dozens of males know her before her husband does. She loses her innocence, which is a part of her charm. She becomes hardened and calculating. Unable to love, she is unfit to receive her husband’s seed.

The feminine personality is founded on the emotional relationship between mother and baby. It is based on nurturing and self-sacrifice. Masculine nature is founded on the relationship between hunter and prey. It is based on aggression and reason.

Feminism teaches woman that feminine nature has resulted in “oppression” and that she should convert to male behavior instead. The result: a confused and aggressive woman with a large chip on her shoulder, unfit to become a wife or mother.

This, of course, is the goal of the social engineers at the NWO: undermine sexual identity and destroy the family, create social and personal dysfunction, and reduce population. In the “brave new world,” women are not supposed to be “nest” makers, or progenitors of the race. They are meant to be neutered autonomous creatures that indulge in sex for physical pleasure, not for love or procreation.

At his press conference on Sunday, Donald Rumsfeld said that Iranian women and youth were restive under the rule of the Mullahs. He implied that the US would soon liberate them. To Britney Spears? To low-rise “see-my-thong” pants? To the mutual masturbation that passes for sexuality in America?

Parenthood is the pinnacle of human development. It is the stage when we finally graduate from self-indulgence and become God’s surrogates: creating and nurturing new life. The New World Order does not want us to reach this level of maturity. Pornography is the substitute for marriage. We are to remain stunted: single, sex-starved and self-obsessed.

We are not meant to have a permanent “private” life. We are to remain lonely and isolated, dependent on consumer products for our identity, in a state of perpetual courtship.

This is especially destructive for woman. Her sexual attraction is a function of her fertility. As fertility declines, so does her sex appeal. If a woman devotes her prime years to becoming “independent,” she is not likely to find a permanent mate.

Her long-term personal fulfillment and happiness lies in making marriage and family her first priority.

Feminism is another cruel New World Order hoax that has debauched American women and despoiled Western civilization. It has ruined millions of lives and represents a lethal threat to Islam.

I am not advocating the burka but rather some of the values that it represents, specifically a woman’s consecration to her future husband and family, and the modesty and dignity this entails...[2]

About the author:
Henry Makow, is the inventor of the board game Scruples, and the author of A Long Way to go for a Date. He received his Ph.D. in English Literature from the University of Toronto.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/532/

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Berrin wrote:Blame it on the male chauvinist founders of capitalism. Nicely managed to put women into the centre point of consumption. So much so that core values of religion and modesty had to be ceased in favor of darwinist/atheist/feminist propaganda to nourish it.
They exploited enough women in the west and now it's the turn of muslim ladies on muslim lands or whereever they live.

Actually it was women themselves, who struggled for equal rights against "the male chauvinist founders of capitalism". In the middle of XIX century they have less rights than blacks in US. So it was a long fight in US and UK.

Berrin wrote:

Dubai Knight wrote:
So tell me, is this an expression of covering up her feminine attractions? Why go to all this trouble if she is not trying to show off her attributes?

No.

Blame it on the male chauvinist founders of capitalism. Nicely managed to put women into the centre point of consumption. So much so that core values of religion and modesty had to be ceased in favor of darwinist/atheist/feminist propaganda to nourish it.
They exploited enough women in the west and now it's the turn of muslim ladies on muslim lands or whereever they live.

This has nothing to do with Western capitalism! Thats just dogma. This is the women's own choice to express themselves in this way (see it as their cry for freedom) something they are sadly lacking.

If they truly didn't want to bling themselves up and go out on parade, they would either stay at home or cover completely. Females enjoy being admired, they need it on an animal level and they also are driven to it by Darwinian principles.

Men are exactly the same. They are driven to do things that enhance their masculinity in the eyes of potential mates, which here tends to be the acquisition and abuse of a fast car or the wearing of a valuable watch and carrying of a Mont Blanc pen. They are visible status symbols that tell a potential partner that 'I am successful and therefore higher genetic material'. Would they be seen as the victims of male chauvinist propaganda?

Nature will always find a way and anything 'people' do to try and stop it will fail eventually. This constriction of human nature is unnatural and is why those nations that have evolved beyond it, see the wearing of the veil as archaiic and an infringement on the rights of the individual.



Knight

shafique wrote:Hey, I'm just a firm believer that if we don't know our history, we are bound to repeat mistakes.

Not so easy, Shafique. It is not YOUR history but OUR history. So it looks rather like a throwing stone than the lesson.

Dubai Knight wrote:

Berrin wrote:

Dubai Knight wrote:
So tell me, is this an expression of covering up her feminine attractions? Why go to all this trouble if she is not trying to show off her attributes?

No.

Blame it on the male chauvinist founders of capitalism. Nicely managed to put women into the centre point of consumption. So much so that core values of religion and modesty had to be ceased in favor of darwinist/atheist/feminist propaganda to nourish it.
They exploited enough women in the west and now it's the turn of muslim ladies on muslim lands or whereever they live.

This has nothing to do with Western capitalism! Thats just dogma. This is the women's own choice to express themselves in this way (see it as their cry for freedom) something they are sadly lacking.

If they truly didn't want to bling themselves up and go out on parade, they would either stay at home or cover completely. Females enjoy being admired, they need it on an animal level and they also are driven to it by Darwinian principles.

Men are exactly the same. They are driven to do things that enhance their masculinity in the eyes of potential mates, which here tends to be the acquisition and abuse of a fast car or the wearing of a valuable watch and carrying of a Mont Blanc pen. They are visible status symbols that tell a potential partner that 'I am successful and therefore higher genetic material'. Would they be seen as the victims of male chauvinist propaganda?

Nature will always find a way and anything 'people' do to try and stop it will fail eventually. This constriction of human nature is unnatural and is why those nations that have evolved beyond it, see the wearing of the veil as archaiic and an infringement on the rights of the individual.



Knight

^^^^^ ^^^

Red Chief wrote:
In the middle of XIX century they have less rights than blacks in US. So it was a long fight in US and UK.

Islam didn't arrive for no reason. Blame it on corrupt jewish/christian popes and monks lied and cheated women continously to keep their male chauvinist status to last. No wonder why women had to fight for their rights that islam gave them 1400 years ago that they didn't know.
And they still lie to this date to keep church status in the name of the nations of christianhood while turning blind eye to the destroyed lifes of christian women in the hands of brutal capital holders.

The Church’s founding fathers, men who formulated Christian belief and canonized the Bible, supported this view: ‘Don’t you know that you are each an Eve?’ God’s sentence on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil wasn’t valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. (St. Tertullian)

“Woman is a daughter of falsehood, a sentinel of Hell, the enemy of peace; through her Adam lost paradise.” (St. John Damascene)

‘God created Adam Lord of all living creatures, but Eve spoiled it all. Women should remain at home, sit still, keep house and bear children. And if they (women) grow tired or, even, die (from giving birth), it does not matter. Let her die from in childbirth; that’s why they are there.’ (Martin Luther).

The Veil Unveiled: The True Status of Women in Islam
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/287/viewall/
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I don't no the reason as well as don't care about the religion of Paul but common sence tells me that nobody gives rights without fights from the seeker. Probably it's too Marxist approach...

Red Chief wrote:

shafique wrote:Hey, I'm just a firm believer that if we don't know our history, we are bound to repeat mistakes.

Not so easy, Shafique. It is not YOUR history but OUR history. So it looks rather like a throwing stone than the lesson.

'My' history is that of the human race - hence why I said 'our' and 'we' in the quote above.

Cheers,
Shafique

Dubai knight wrote:
This has nothing to do with Western capitalism! Thats just dogma.

It seems that the popes had failed to teach you the purpose of life...maybe they didn't know in the first place..

The The Judeo-Christian Answer
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/186/

Islam and the aim of life
http://www.saaid.net/islam/2.htm

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Berrin wrote:

Dubai knight wrote:
This has nothing to do with Western capitalism! Thats just dogma.

It seems that the popes had failed to teach you the purpose of life...maybe they didn't know in the first place..

The The Judeo-Christian Answer
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/186/

Islam and the aim of life
http://www.saaid.net/islam/2.htm

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HAHA!

MAybe some people doesnt need the pope or Islam to teach them the purpose of life, how to live, what to eat, what to wear etc etc

Red Chief wrote:
common sence tells me that nobody gives rights without fights from the seeker.

Why shouldn't you give the rights without fights if you have faith and a true BELIEVER ..hence importance of religion..
Men were introduced to these values 1400 years ago at least.
They are:
- sincerity
- honesty/truthfulness
- equity
- goodness
- fairness
- justice
- kindness
- generosity
- compassion
- charity
- humility
- purity/cleanliness
- protection/self-defense

And what is clearly admonished against are

- concealment
- untruthfulness/lies/dishonesty
- inequity
- arrogance/haughtiness
- gratuitous aggression
- transgression

-- Fri May 07, 2010 11:35 am --

MAybe some people doesnt need the pope or Islam to teach them the purpose of life, how to live, what to eat, what to wear etc etc

Right..So noone should equally give a toss as to how others see the islamic dress code and what some may think about islam and muslim men etc etc.

The only concept, I cannot see in this long list, is freedom. It reveals a lot.