Interesting Article In KT 6/10/07

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Interesting Article in KT 6/10/07 Oct 09, 2007
mmmmmmmm this is very interesting indeed - hold onto your hats theres gonna be a rough ride ahead for some, i would be seriously worried if i had property due for completion and payment in 2008/2009. :?

06 October 2007
DUBAI -- Investors in the UAE's real estate sector will benefit from a highly probable dirham revaluation, investment consultants said.



A revaluation of the dirham, which is currently estimated to 30 to 35 per cent undervalued against the US currency, could provide investors a nice bonus on a property purchased in the UAE compared to parking that investment in a US dollar deposit account, investment experts said.


Gary Dugan, Chief Investment Officer, Global Wealth Management, Merrill Lynch, told Khaleej Times that the GCC currencies needed to appreciate by around 35 per cent to reduce excessive savings.


"In the shorter term we expect the UAE or Qatar will move to peg versus a basket of currencies this year."


"Apart from the substantial gains resulting from the current boom in property prices, investors will stand to reap benefits from the appreciation of dirham against dollar in the event of a revaluation, the extend of which is variously estimated," another analyst said.


However, real estate investors also face a dilemma. "While revaluation may provide a bonus on a property purchase as opposed to keeping money in a US dollar deposit account, a stronger dirham will make the UAE property prices a little less attractive to foreign investors," they pointed out.


"This, followed by the likely surge in local interest rates could have a negative impact on the real estate market."


Despite UAE Central Bank's insistence that it would neither opt for a revaluation of dirham nor move away from the US dollar peg, currency experts and economists believe that the likelihood of an imminent revaluation of the UAE dirham is 30 per cent.


"An investor who buys a property anywhere in the UAE will see his money getting one-off bonus against the dollar," a market analyst said.


With most economists affirming that an upward adjustment of dirham to the US dollar will be increasingly likely unless inflation begins to slow more noticeably next year, there is an increasing pressure on the UAE monetary authorities to drop dollar peg and switch to a basket of currencies as Kuwait and Syria had done. "Such a move will ward off any further inflationary trends by strengthening the dirham against other currencies," they contend.


However, experts warn that the UAE has to undertake a series of currency realignments to ensure the true value of its currency.


"While most of the UAE's exports (oil and gas) are priced in dollars, the country's biggest share of imports comes from non-dollar zone. A steadily falling US dollar is thus aggravating inflation which last year hovered above 10 per cent due to higher cost of imported goods, a steep surge in rents and other living expenses."


Dugan said the dollar looked set for further weakness. "We believe that dollar weakness comes from both cyclical and structural factors. Cyclically the US economy is set to be one of the weakest in 2008. Structurally the US economy is still facing the twin deficits of a current account and fiscal deficit. Also the weakness of the dollar has gained some momentum that may extend through the fourth quarter of 2007."


Dugan said the dollar's loss of value and influence in the global economy is coincident with the rise of the Asian region and in particular the very strong growth rates of China and India. "The reason that the possibility of more Middle Eastern countries dropping the dollar peg is being discussed more is that the region is facing high inflation and yet interest policy is strongly linked to the Fed. So despite high inflation interest rates are low if not being cut. Normally, with such high inflation the central banks would increase interest rates, instead rates have been kept unsustainably low, increasing the inflation risk."

arniegang
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Oct 16, 2007
There is no evidence they will revalue is there? It may be sensible but that doesn't mean it will happen
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Oct 16, 2007
You need to read the article again - the answers are there, ill' give you a clue "inflation"
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Oct 17, 2007
arniegang wrote:You need to read the article again - the answers are there, ill' give you a clue "inflation"


Whilst anyone working here and sticking UAE Dirhams in the bank account would love for a revaluation to happen, it has been time and time again stated by the powers that be that this will not happen, the primary reason being they believe this to be a short term situation with the $US.

Meanwhile the attractive conversion rate to the Euro (and the lesser quality pound Stirling) is boosting UAE/Dubai's property sales and tourism. So whilst inflation is high, so is the growth in revenue from these areas. Hence, the Sheikhs are happy to wait it out.

The $US will bounce back, and indications are sometime before the end of the year, early next year as soon as the Christmas indicators and quarter results are published... and the US is expecting a decent retail trade this Christmas.

It is true the Dirham is undervalued by 30%, but then, so is the $US. Any attempt to move the peg would only be more harmful in the long term, as when the dollar returned to normal, the dirham would in fact be overvalued in terms of world currencies.

This is the problem with a pegged currency vs. a floated one.

My own thoughts are, the peg will remain until the end of Q1 next year, wherein if the dollar hasn't picked up, then perhaps a long term re-evaluation will occur.

Nothing before.
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Oct 17, 2007
i understand your reasoning Ian but i disagree. No Country can rely on keeping their currency fixed because of tourism and property sales.

Sterling is only strong againt the Dirham because the pound is strong against the Dollar. It is therefore still directly linked to the peg between the dirham and dollar.

The christmas sales will go no way to solve or affect the strength of the dollar and if it did it would only be a mometary "sticky plaster" that will fall off. The reason why the dollar is so weak and will remain so is that their interest rates are high and the financial institutes are running cold and scared esp the "hedge funds". This is not forcast to change.

The USi s going through a stage that we in the UK experienced in 1992/1993,when inflation was high. interest rates were high and property had only one way to go - downwards. It lasted here until a recovery started in 1996/1997.

The current situation is not a short term blip, and i believe the UAE and economists know this.

As the report correctly states the majority of imports/exports with the exception of oil is not linked to the dollar. As the UAE has approx only 7/8 years of oil left, then it would be prudent within the next year or 2 to seriously reconsider a revaluation
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Oct 17, 2007
arniegang wrote:i understand your reasoning Ian but i disagree. No Country can rely on keeping their currency fixed because of tourism and property sales.


Can you please tell me what other mystery form of income (besides Oil which is all in $US anyway) is bringing funds into the UAE, I would dearly love to know.

Any shift in the value of the Dirham would cause these funds to decline... I am sure the UAE Economists are well aware of this. Well, since this is exactly what they have said in the papers, they are well aware.

As has been discussed in the Gulf News many times this year already, there is no current plan to revalue the Dirham. This has come straight from the top, and despite much talk about Kuwait's actions, the message has been steadfast to date.

Even the analyst in the above article states the chance is '30%' which to me is less than even money.

I know every single person who gets paid in Dirhams would love a repegging of the Dirham, but revaluing a currency is a very big thing, and could have quite big ripples. In this case, I would be happy to be wrong... more than happy.

As for the $US, it will pick up again, 300 million consumers is a heck of a buying power, and I wouldn't begin to compare it to the fraction of the size economy of the UK.

Edit: and I will reiterate my stance from above... nothing to happen before the end of Q1 next year, and if the dollar is still in the doldrums then, perhaps a 'long term' (i.e. small) repegging will be in order to provide some relief.
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Oct 17, 2007
arniegang wrote:Sterling is only strong againt the Dirham because the pound is strong against the Dollar. It is therefore still directly linked to the peg between the dirham and dollar.


By the way, this is what a 'peg' is. It's a bit of Captain Obvious statement you even felt the need to point this out. Is there a person in the UAE who doesn't understand the concept that the pound is strong against the dirham because it's strong against the dollar?

Perhaps in school, somewhere, in Ajman....
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Oct 17, 2007
On what i thought was a serious debate Ian you seem to feel the need to interject it with your usual brand of sarcasm. No matter........

Ian, if you contact the Dubai Chamber of Commerce and Industry (DCCI) they will confirm that in 2006 Dubai contributed 42.7 % of the UAE's "non - oil GDP". In addition oil contributed 37.5 per cent of UAE's GDP in 2006, while for Dubai this figure is only 5.1 per cent.

So to summerize these figures, Dubai contributes a total 47.8% to the UAE's GDP, with only 5.1% of this being oil relatated exports.

If you need to know what Dubai is good at, in terms of imports and exports then i am sure you have the means to find this out, then hopefully this wont be such a "mystery to you" Ian

GDP does not include factors such as property sales, likewise the spending power of a nation at Chrismas time has no bearing upon GDP/inflation/currency.

Everyone should know the size of a country and the number of its inhabitants has no direct relation to its wealth. I am surprised Ian you made this comparison, and i dont really understand why you think this is the case with the US or how it realates directly to the revaluation of the Dirham.
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Oct 17, 2007
Ok Ian to help you out i have posted this from an article in the Gulf News you must have missed this.



22/08/07
UAE Vice President makes China new focus for trade boost

Bilateral trade worth US$14.2 billion (Dh52bn) will be on the table when His Highness Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, Vice President and Prime Minister of the UAE and Ruler of Dubai arrives in the People's Republic of China on September 6 for a two-day visit.
UAE's trade with China has grown six-fold since 2000, registering an increase of 31.8 per cent in 2006 over the previous year.
The UAE Foreign Ministry on Monday discussed with the Chinese Ambassador special arrangements for Sheikh Mohammed's visit. Sheikh Mohammed will attend the World Economic Forum (WEF) where more than 1,500 global political and economic leaders will meet in the coastal city of Dalian, northeast China.
A recent report by Emirates Industrial Bank has highlighted the increasing role of countries such as China, India and Malaysia in the 18.6 per cent growth of UAE's non-oil foreign trade during 2006. The amount reached Dh340.1bn, compared with Dh286.8bn registered in 2005.
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Oct 18, 2007
Something you guys need to keep in mind is that the GCC is trying to make monetary decisions in unison as part of the unified currency plan in 2010. What Kuwait did earlier to revalue its currency made everyone upset, and the UAE will most probably stick to a GCC move in unison to revalue the currencies (if they ever do), as they dont have a history of doing things alone. (unlike Oman and Bahrain on FTA with the US)


BTW, ian you said the US$ is 30% undervalued ? are you for real ? its 30% *over valued*. Take a look at the US government public debt :) or just read the latest IMF report on that:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87f070e-7c96 ... ck_check=1
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Oct 18, 2007
good point Maad

If the US were a PLC they would be half way to liquidation by now or further.
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Oct 18, 2007
arniegang wrote:On what i thought was a serious debate Ian you seem to feel the need to interject it with your usual brand of sarcasm. No matter........


What simply because I didn't agree with you? How childish on your part. Take your blinkers off man.

Ian, if you contact the Dubai Chamber of Commerce and Industry (DCCI) they will confirm that in 2006 Dubai contributed 42.7 % of the UAE's "non - oil GDP". In addition oil contributed 37.5 per cent of UAE's GDP in 2006, while for Dubai this figure is only 5.1 per cent.


These are old and well known stats... you can find them on the internet, no need to contact any chamber of commerce.

So to summerize these figures, Dubai contributes a total 47.8% to the UAE's GDP, with only 5.1% of this being oil relatated exports.


Ahhh... yeah, and where do you think the 'other' comes from? Tourism and Property. Or as I questioned earlier... is there some other mystery source of money?

Which is my point entirely... the current growth is being fuelled by these two sectors, and the current influx for these sectors is heavily biased towards Euro currencies... hence any revaluation will have an adverse effect.

I'm not sure if you get my point at all but it's simple economics, blazingly simple. A revaluation will see the value of these currencies slide against the Dirham and therefore shift the pricing equilibrium, leading to a downturn in these two crucial sectors... something *nobody* in the UAE wants.

If you need to know what Dubai is good at, in terms of imports and exports then i am sure you have the means to find this out, then hopefully this wont be such a "mystery to you" Ian


Well my point is simple... if it's not property, tourism or oil... what is it? I put forward that anything outside these 3 sectors is marginal at best. Now take into account oil is in $US and the other two are currently heavily dependent on Euro trade... what possible positive effect could a revaluation have on this?

GDP does not include factors such as property sales, likewise the spending power of a nation at
Chrismas time has no bearing upon GDP/inflation/currency.


GDP is certainly effected by these factors, it is not ceribus paribus. Whilst there is no direct correlation, there is of course residual effect. This country is heavily dependent on foreign investment in property, it is what keeps the wheels of industry turning here... to say anything different would be staggeringly naive.

Everyone should know the size of a country and the number of its inhabitants has no direct relation to its wealth. I am surprised Ian you made this comparison, and i dont really understand why you think this is the case with the US or how it realates directly to the revaluation of the Dirham.


There is a big difference between 'wealth' of a country and total combined consumer spending power. The fact remains that the US economy, even in its currently weakened state, still represents one of the single biggest buying forces on this planet.

A further collapse in the US economy would spell disaster for the likes of China and India who still see the USA as it's major trading partners and draw a substantial amount of revenue from consumer goods and trade.

You can't say that about any other single country.

You can have a wealthy country, but this is irrelevant if they're worthless as a trading partner in macro-economical terms.

To cut to the chase, and remove the confuddling you seem to be adding to the discussion, let us get back to the main points:

(1) There will be no re-evaluation of the dirham as stated by the UAE Central Bank many times this year, at least for this year.

(2) It will persist at its current value until at least 1st Quarter 2008, where depending on the current state of the $US, it may be revalued, but we're talking mere cents, not much at all, and this is for the long term.

Revaluing a currency isn't something you decide to wake up in the morning and do. It's is a very big thing and it has to be done carefully.
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Oct 18, 2007
MaaaD wrote:BTW, ian you said the US$ is 30% undervalued ? are you for real ? its 30% *over valued*. Take a look at the US government public debt :) or just read the latest IMF report on that:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87f070e-7c96 ... ck_check=1


There's a lot of speculation of the 'value' of the $US, but I can tell you now, any further slide will see a worldwide disaster.

The problem mainly stems from the US having overspent considerably in the wrong areas for the current buffoons last terms, and this has had widespread impact across the board for it in monetary value terms... this is something I do not disagree with... but when evaluating a currency you also need to take into account the future potential of the currency, and well, I wouldn't be writing off the $US yet, by any means.

I do believe in terms of potential, it is undervalued, of course, like anything, this is just an opinion. It has the potential to bounce back by 25 to 30% in the next 12 months.

In world scale the reduced buying power, leading to reduced spend of the $US doesn't service any countries needs at all. As much as many dislike the US and the greenback, the world needs a stronger dollar, because a weak dollar means reduced global spend.

But we've gone waaaayyy off track. The discussion is about the revaluing of the Dirham, and the point has been made time and time again it will not be happening in the short term.

From the final perspective, and that is of the ruling class in the UAE, the current situation suits their needs, as the weak dirham is sustaining growth and investment in the country. A change in the value of the dirham will mean reduced influx of funds, which none of the powers that be want.

You also make the salient point of the move towards a combined currency, which is now a little up in the air, but it also forces the point that any revaluation must be done in unison with the other GCC states. Kuwait's move was not at all welcome by the other states as we have read many times in the press, and the UAE won't be rocking the boat with anything rash.
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Oct 18, 2007
As somebody who owns property in the UAE, I'd love for the Dirham to be revalued but it I tend to agree that this wont happen any time soon if at all, I agree with Maad and Ian on this.

Arnie you need to read between the lines.

An article coming out of a state controlled newspaper saying any property owner is looking at a nice 30% bonus and specifically highlighting property owners in an article just before the regions largest real estate show in a country not world renowned for its transparency? C’mon are people that keep their many in UAE dirham savings accounts not entitled to the same perk why not mention that? Why would they specifically mention property except that is a nice thing to highlight just before you try and market a bunch?

Anyway my 2 fils.
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Oct 18, 2007
Fayz

I sorta see your point, but the property thing for me was really of little interest as owners like you and me it really makes no difference what the value of our homes are, well for me anyway. I dont intend to sale my place it is our 3rd home and therefore its value whether up or down has no relevance because it wont be sold.

With respect to the property show, the report actually damages prospective purchasers, because like i pointed out in my initial post, if there is a revaluation, the people that will loose out the biggest will be those "intending to purchase" not those who already own, it is this group that stand to gain and not new investors.
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Oct 18, 2007
Ian

- i repeat for the second time GDP does not include property sales, it includes rent but not Sales, i will explain

The components of GDP consist of of the variables C, I, G and NE

C is private consumption in the economy. This includes most personal expenditures of households such as food, rent, medical expenses and so on but does not include new housing.

Therefore Ian, each nation in calculating their GDP exclude "new housing". The criteria for calculating GDP is laid down by the World Bank/IMF.

Also as a caveat on your last post giving the impression that the figures i quoted for Dubai's GDP calculation "were old".

Well yes i suppose they were old being that i quoted the last published figures for 2006 (ie last year). Sadly we will have to wait until the end of this year for the 2007 figures as GDP calulations are produced annually in arrears.

If there is anything you dont understand Ian, let me know and i wil be happy to explain.
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Oct 18, 2007
arniegang wrote:Ian

- i repeat for the second time GDP does not include property sales, it includes rent but not Sales, i will explain


* sigh * if you're not even going to bother to read what I wrote, I'm hardly going to waste my time reading what you wrote. Read the sentence with Cerebus Parbus in it.

Seems fair.

As for needing to explain things Arnie, it might pay for you to know I hold a couple of degrees both with distinction averages, and I have 13 years experience in Sales and Marketing, the last couple of years for one of the largest property developers in UAE, which you know.

Everyday I have fiscal and economic reports pass my desk regarding the state of affairs regarding Dubai, the property market and the supply conditions. Furthermore I am part of the sales planning committee and price setting committee for this company.

It is for this reason alone I generally avoid talking about property at all. The amount of rubbish I see people write and speak about it oft leaves me wondering if anyone knows anything about it at all.

But you know, since you own 3 properties, I guess that does put you in a better position to 'see' the future.

Me, I'll save the predictions on what is going to happen to the peg to the economists. I am just echoing what they have written.
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Oct 18, 2007
well besides the heckling this has actually been quite an interesting read!

would you mind if i asked, perhaps a stupid question at this point.

does the GDP of the country, the UAE in this case take into account foriegn holdings, by which I mean expatriate owned properties? or is it only calculated on 100% national owned propeties?
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Oct 18, 2007
oops, before i get my head chewed off, let me rephrase ...

not new properties.... or are all property sales excluded from the caclulations?
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Oct 18, 2007
By the way, this from Wikipedia:

C is private consumption in the economy. This includes most personal expenditures of households such as food, rent, medical expenses and so on but does not include new housing.


So Arnie, either you plagiarised Wikipedia without crediting your source, or... you wrote the article.

I think I know which.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdp
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Oct 18, 2007
Soul

all property sales values are excluded when calculating GDP. The reason being it wouldnt give a true figure of the actual GDP.

For example take Dubai, yes it is an emerging market for new property sales, but if these figure were included in the GDP then it would not give a true indication of the actual trade figures for the UAE/Dubai.

The GDP is more concerned with the economies associated with the housing sector and the influence of the population that uses that housing. For example more imports are generated by more housing, more people buy more food, furniture etc etc, this in turn increase the countries imports and "value".

Hope this explains ok for you.
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Oct 18, 2007
A note on property sales and GDP.

As has been correctly stated (and I think everyone is in general agreement) the sale value does not contribute to the GDP. However, there is residual influence on new property sales for the accompany product and services that are related to the emergence of new residential space.

The list could be endless, but includes furniture, fixtures, services etc. and not to mention the ensuing rent from said property if rented (which many are) is also taken into account.

Thus whilst property sales are not included in GDP, they do have an effect on the GDP of a country.

Note, GDP is also not an absolute measurement, it is but one of many indexes one should refer to the ascertain the health of an economy. If GDP were the be all and end all, then given the USA makes up a massive chunk of world GDP, then you'd understand my faith in the $US ability to bounce back.
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Oct 18, 2007
^ian^ wrote:By the way, this from Wikipedia:

C is private consumption in the economy. This includes most personal expenditures of households such as food, rent, medical expenses and so on but does not include new housing.


So Arnie, either you plagiarised Wikipedia without crediting your source, or... you wrote the article.

I think I know which.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdp


Ian works for the Copyright Interpol - Dubai Branch.
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Oct 18, 2007
it does. i read through the link above as well, a little confusing for a non-economist such as me.

an i correct in assuming that the current GDP is really artificial at this stage, all the construction materials (fixtures/ fittings etc) are imported; these are measured in the GDP under imports, but not counted counted twice as the property value/ sales value of the completed project is excluded from the calculation. so, what happens with the building stops, or slows down.
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Oct 18, 2007
dbxsoul wrote:it does. i read through the link above as well, a little confusing for a non-economist such as me.

an i correct in assuming that the current GDP is really artificial at this stage, all the construction materials (fixtures/ fittings etc) are imported; these are measured in the GDP under imports, but not counted counted twice as the property value/ sales value of the completed project is excluded from the calculation. so, what happens with the building stops, or slows down.


Ahh, it's hard to say it's 'artificial' since it is not an awfully accurate measurement to begin with (the lack of proper taxation and accounting in the UAE makes this difficult as has been noted on many reports I read), but I would say that the value is currently sitting where it should.

An expense is an expense is an expense... unless it's a deduction. Since we don't have a proper taxation system here to accurately track this... the accuracy is questionable, but usable.
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Oct 18, 2007
gtmash wrote:
^ian^ wrote:By the way, this from Wikipedia:

C is private consumption in the economy. This includes most personal expenditures of households such as food, rent, medical expenses and so on but does not include new housing.


So Arnie, either you plagiarised Wikipedia without crediting your source, or... you wrote the article.

I think I know which.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdp


Ian works for the Copyright Interpol - Dubai Branch.


Amongst many things....
^ian^
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Oct 18, 2007
Ahh, it's hard to say it's 'artificial' since it is not an awfully accurate measurement to begin with (the lack of proper taxation and accounting in the UAE makes this difficult as has been noted on many reports I read), but I would say that the value is currently sitting where it should.

An expense is an expense is an expense... unless it's a deduction. Since we don't have a proper taxation system here to accurately track this... the accuracy is questionable, but usable.


True, hadn't thought about the tax angle. I actually find economics quiet interesting, but don't really understand it :D a bit like life! :lol:
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Oct 18, 2007
dbxsoul wrote:
Ahh, it's hard to say it's 'artificial' since it is not an awfully accurate measurement to begin with (the lack of proper taxation and accounting in the UAE makes this difficult as has been noted on many reports I read), but I would say that the value is currently sitting where it should.

An expense is an expense is an expense... unless it's a deduction. Since we don't have a proper taxation system here to accurately track this... the accuracy is questionable, but usable.


True, hadn't thought about the tax angle. I actually find economics quiet interesting, but don't really understand it :D a bit like life! :lol:


Economists are rarely right though. I have seen quite a few analysis that says the lay person can be just as accurate as economists with Phds.

It's like theoretical physics, but with money.
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Oct 18, 2007
soul

ian's post basically mirrored mine. However i would not conclude the same as you both in terms of a temporary glitch/hike in the GDP.

Taking out the building material for new developments, which is probably a very small proportion of the overall Dubai and UAE GDP the figures have nowhere to go but up over a longer period.

I say this because like we pointed out the economies are linked to the products the inhabitants and business's generate that measure the balance between imports/exports etc.

The theory is, that as the previous years GDP would consist of say imports of steel/cement etc etc for the construction, then the following year it would be offset by the "new inhabitants" contribution to the GDP.

This is how some elements of the GDP is used to calculate the "pro capita" income within a country. But like Ian correctly states, this is not an exact science within the UAE because of the lack of taxation. Taxation is generally the best way to measure/calculate a nations Per Capita Income, in terms of the individual Governments income and expenditure. Governments and the IMF can easilly calculate through taxation what earnings are generated etc

Countries like UK/US/CAN/AUS Europe etc etc etc this is fairly easy for ecomomists to work out, but getting a more exact figure for the UAE is not quite so easy and accurate.
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Oct 18, 2007
I’ll be honest I just skimmed the last little bit and and have no experience in the fields of macro economics or marketing but okay let’s say that the prices of homes don’t get included in GDP all the companies supporting that industry do?

I.e. 1 have one friend who owns a pool installation company and another whose main business is importing outdoor furniture, both of these guys companies sales would be factored in with the GDP? Is that correct? If so I’d venture that if you look at the amount of people that work in the housing after sales supports/marketing both of homes, vacations retreats and the ‘dream of dubai’ make up a big chunk of the workforce and cash influx into Dubai. I know you both but doesn’t this in itself prove Ian’s point?

I also remember reading in a government published report that Oil is not the main source of income but rather tourism is.

Anyway I’ll have to get motivated and read this thread in detail, seems pretty interesting.
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Location: take a left at the Bebsi interchange, that is the Bebsi interchange

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