Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai General Chat

canuckbid wrote:Hello everyone. There is more than one side to the news. The media does have far to much control I think. It brain wash's people into their way of thinking what is right or wrong. Of course we never get to see both sides reported accurately. Well, seldom anyway.

Any views that come from outside the controlled media is ridiculed or rabidly attacked.

And considering most of the world's established media is in the hands of six or seven companies, it's little wonder they all parrot the same copy and stories.

What happened to great investigative journalists such as John Pilger, Greg Palast and Barry Chamish? They're sidelined to feature only in 'conspiracy' publications.

Del wrote:

Speedhump wrote:

Del wrote:

Speedhump wrote:

Del wrote:

Speedhump wrote:"Toxic waste was first dumped in Somalia in the late 1980s, but accelerated sharply during the civil war which followed the 1991 overthrow of the late dictator Mohamed Siad Barre.

Local warlords, many of them former ministers in Siad Barre’s last government, received large payments from Swiss and Italian firms for access to their respective fiefdoms."

Who's to blame then? Somali's prostituting their own country.

I doubt if you bothered to read the article, but the amount of dumpers has increased over the years.

OK what point are you making here? I just said that Somalis took money for allowing waste to be dumped and started a precedent. Reply?

My point is obvious.
The dumping has reached such levels that locals (NOT 'government' officials lining their pockets) decided to take action.

What a disingenous reply. You are ignoring the obvious point that the action should have been taken against the corrupt nationals (EX government actually). This situation is in fact repeated throughout Africa.
Now it's so easy for the to blame 'foreigners' for their situation, which they just love to do.

OK take your pick.

a) The article is nothing but lies designed blame 'foreigners' for their situation, which they just love to do.
b) The article is true but the dumping of toxic waste is ALL the fault of the Somalians

Floundering and twisting my words; I didn't say ALL.

However you said 'As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean'

You ignored context just like the pseudo-journalist. You did most definitely imply that it is ALL the fault of Europeans. I hope you're happy with Chocoholic on your side, it would worry me!

I have to work now and I can see this discussion is purely circular.

Bora Bora wrote:
You don't know sarcasm when it smacks you in the face.

Neither do you. When I wrote Borer Borer - you questioned my geography.
How red is your neck?

Speedhump wrote:However you said 'As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean'

I DIDN'T write it - it is taken from the article which, after three pages of a thread, I was hoping you might have actually read by now.

Del wrote:

Speedhump wrote:However you said 'As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean'

I DIDN'T write it - it is taken from the article which, after three pages of a thread, I was hoping you might have actually read by now.

You're good with the sarcasm (that's easy of course), not too hot on logic.

I read it, strange eh? It contains no more meat than the words you quoted.

17-19 year olds with guns are not a Coastguard, they are just lawless individuals. Blacks with knives run riot on tube trains in London 'taxing' the law abiding, that's what they call their theft. Your argument is idiotic and swallows pirates' attempts to give their theft respect.

Now I'm done.

Speed, you're looking at it as a black or white situation. The article itself states that some are just plain old bandits and some form some kind of "volunteer coastguard". Hardly anything in life is as simple as black or white.

It would be unwise to ignore these allegations especially considering there appears to be a large grain of truth to them. It would go a long way in understanding the situation that we're in and perhaps, just maybe, we can figure a way out.

gamercowboy wrote:Speed, you're looking at it as a black or white situation. The article itself states that some are just plain old bandits and some form some kind of "volunteer coastguard". Hardly anything in life is as simple as black or white.

It would be unwise to ignore these allegations especially considering there appears to be a large grain of truth to them. It would go a long way in understanding the situation that we're in and perhaps, just maybe, we can figure a way out.

Yes truth is actually always subjective (even in science), one man's truth is not another's, and there's no black and white. But Somalia is such a lawless place after it gained its independent 'democratic' status that local clans now are the effective law again, if you can call it that, and anyone can set themselves up as either a bandit, war lord, pirate or 'tax official', in complete contempt of the true government. It is WRONG however you look at it, black, white or grey.

and that's my subjective opinion, of course

It's rather convinient possition, Speedy, - corrupting a few chiefs of tribes who sometimes don't even control all territory and dump toxic crap/have mineral resources at next to nothing.

corrupt already, this is Africa.

Del wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:

Del wrote:

Speedhump wrote:

Del wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:If this is true, then it's terrible and I can't really blame them.

What struck me was, two days ago, Sky News stated that the pirates had sworn revenge on America for killing three of their colleagues.
What Sky failed to mention was, the pirates has already agreed to hand over the hostages, but were still shot.
(This isn't in that article.)

I read that today in 7 Days. Do you actually have any credible sources for that?

I haven't read 7Days.

Can't get past reading The Independent.

Borer Borer.
You couldn't have chosen a more relevant user name, and you can't even spell it.

What is it your are questioning that I can't spell? Borer is not a word.

There is bore, boring, bores - all of which describe you.

Get back on the Help Forum and try to get some help.

Bora Bora wrote:

Del wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:

Del wrote:

Speedhump wrote:

Del wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:If this is true, then it's terrible and I can't really blame them.

What struck me was, two days ago, Sky News stated that the pirates had sworn revenge on America for killing three of their colleagues.
What Sky failed to mention was, the pirates has already agreed to hand over the hostages, but were still shot.
(This isn't in that article.)

I read that today in 7 Days. Do you actually have any credible sources for that?

I haven't read 7Days.

Can't get past reading The Independent.

Borer Borer.
You couldn't have chosen a more relevant user name, and you can't even spell it.

What is it your are questioning that I can't spell? Borer is not a word.

There is bore, boring, bores - all of which describe you.

Get back on the Help Forum and try to get some help.

borer is a word...lol!
Amazing how some people are so sure of themselves

Right honey, as in TOOL. Did you figure that out while you were in the bath with your rubber duckie?

I was focusing on BORE as HE IS A BORE.

Do you carry a borer in your toolbelt? I am not familiar with such items. So I admit to not being aware of it. There would be no reason for me as I am not in construction, or wherever you use that thing.

Before I get 'all excited' on this topic. I would like to point out that I did not yet read the article presented by Del, but I will after having said this;

This week I saw a documentary on Dutch television about the Pirates talking about why they attack merchant ships for ransom. The sole reason they projected was in order to have an income since the Somali government had signed into law an agreement with the European Union to start allowing EU companies to fish in Somali waters.

This in return caused these huge crawler to fish empty a large portion of the Somali waters and so the Somali's weren't able to fish in front of their coastline anylonger. The fish wasn't there anymore. Thats when they blamed the government who hasn't got the reach to act in all regions, especially in the fisherman villages who got on their own and started piracy as a way to earn income and get food.

Now I'm going to read the article to reply about Harimann.

RobbyG wrote:Before I get 'all excited' on this topic. I would like to point out that I did not yet read the article presented by Del, but I will after having said this;

This week I saw a documentary on Dutch television about the Pirates talking about why they attack merchant ships for ransom. The sole reason they projected was in order to have an income since the Somali government had signed into law an agreement with the European Union to start allowing EU companies to fish in Somali waters.

This in return caused these huge crawler to fish empty a large portion of the Somali waters and so the Somali's weren't able to fish in front of their coastline anylonger. The fish wasn't there anymore. Thats when they blamed the government who hasn't got the reach to act in all regions, especially in the fisherman villages who got on their own and started piracy as a way to earn income and get food.

Now I'm going to read the article to reply about Harimann.

I'll be interested to hear your view. Just remember that two wrongs have never made a right. There is a legally constituted government in Somalia. The reason why it 'cannot reach to act' in all regions of Somalia is because the population ignore it. The main reason I believe is that like most post-colonial governments in Africa, this one show staggering levels of hypocrisy and corruption.

RobbyG wrote:The sole reason they projected was in order to have an income since the Somali government had signed into law an agreement with the European Union to start allowing EU companies to fish in Somali waters.

This in return caused these huge crawler to fish empty a large portion of the Somali waters and so the Somali's weren't able to fish in front of their coastline anylonger. The fish wasn't there anymore. Thats when they blamed the government who hasn't got the reach to act in all regions, especially in the fisherman villages who got on their own and started piracy as a way to earn income and get food.

How it's familiar...

Just read it and once again I find this (rather short) article an article that has the facts right. I myself didn't know shit about toxic waste being dumped in front of the coastline of somalia, but after an hour of research just yet, I must say we Europeans (companies etc) are some set of dirtbags by dumping in their waters.

I don't understand why Del thinks that we are lied upon, since the fact that piracy is not something that must be allowed and can be adressed as a sole item on itself.
Other way around, its good for those pirates to make their point and get their country back in the media, since all of this would otherwise be ignored, and now its TOP news around the globe. Talking about the good use of media, again!!!

Johann Hari set out his views and facts about this issue once again. I don't see any fantasy from Hari. I don't know what Bora meant by cornering the guy like that. But I think he gets more credit for his honest, yet amusing style of reporting. Companies across the globe have been taking on toxic waste on these shipping lanes and dumping it in Somali waters since this stretch of coast in the longest piece of land left that has not been controlled by coast guard or law enforcement.
Companies that offer their services and take on this toxic load and dump it here, are never going to disappear entirely. This is the bad side of doing business. The companies see cheap disposal costs = more profits $$$

The US now responds by showing force and shooting two/three pirates after one pirate alledgedly pointed a shooter at the captain at dusk. So they took em out. Its questionable, but unavoidable. Extortion and threat doesn't solve problems either.

It would be wise if the International community sent some food there. But the problems of Somalia aren't to be solved in one flip of a coin. More bloodshed will probably come from this as the pirates are getting nasty now after a few of them were killed recently. This will continue until the government of Somalia will get more means and ground to do something for its people. Corruption should be eliminated first before the International community can supply means of finance. They have there own issues in finance today. Sad story for Somalia.

Did I just turn sour now?

I was wondering how long before G came to the defense of the honrable Hari

LizaMarie wrote:I was wondering how long before G came to the defense of the honrable Hari

There is nothing honorable to Mr. Hari dear. Its his fine piece of honest unbiased reporting that attracts me.

If it ain't based on facts, I would say that too. Dare to discuss some? Then let me hear ya.

I didn't know of Hari since recently. I just like honest reporting without a bias. As you can obviously see, Hari's opinion is critical against the Europeans governments/shippers that help dump this toxic crap. I didn't even know that and I read myself into it today. Its sick!

Thats honest reporting. What is wrong with that?

Or would you rather like me saying, that Europe is all good and doesn't do a thing wrong since we are the best??? I think NOT.

Ideal situations don't exist in this world. Only in my dreams

'Toxic waste' behind Somali piracy
By Najad Abdullahi

Somali pirates have accused European firms of dumping toxic waste off the Somali coast and are demanding an $8m ransom for the return of a Ukranian ship they captured, saying the money will go towards cleaning up the waste.

The ransom demand is a means of "reacting to the toxic waste that has been continually dumped on the shores of our country for nearly 20 years", Januna Ali Jama, a spokesman for the pirates, based in the semi-autonomous region of Puntland, said.

"The Somali coastline has been destroyed, and we believe this money is nothing compared to the devastation that we have seen on the seas."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/afric ... 18644.html

Speedhump wrote:

Del wrote:

Speedhump wrote:However you said 'As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean'

I DIDN'T write it - it is taken from the article which, after three pages of a thread, I was hoping you might have actually read by now.

You're good with the sarcasm (that's easy of course), not too hot on logic.

I read it, strange eh? It contains no more meat than the words you quoted.

17-19 year olds with guns are not a Coastguard, they are just lawless individuals. Blacks with knives run riot on tube trains in London 'taxing' the law abiding, that's what they call their theft. Your argument is idiotic and swallows pirates' attempts to give their theft respect.

Now I'm done.

The article mentions that SOME of them are nothing but gangsters.

What's blacks on the tube got to do with anything? Are foreign companies dumping toxic waste in the back gardens of young black kids in London?
Don't use words such as logic mate.

Snow wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:

Del wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:

Del wrote:

Speedhump wrote:

Del wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:If this is true, then it's terrible and I can't really blame them.

What struck me was, two days ago, Sky News stated that the pirates had sworn revenge on America for killing three of their colleagues.
What Sky failed to mention was, the pirates has already agreed to hand over the hostages, but were still shot.
(This isn't in that article.)

I read that today in 7 Days. Do you actually have any credible sources for that?

I haven't read 7Days.

Can't get past reading The Independent.

Borer Borer.
You couldn't have chosen a more relevant user name, and you can't even spell it.

What is it your are questioning that I can't spell? Borer is not a word.

There is bore, boring, bores - all of which describe you.

Get back on the Help Forum and try to get some help.

borer is a word...lol!
Amazing how some people are so sure of themselves

The guy is a clown.

RobbyG wrote:

LizaMarie wrote:I was wondering how long before G came to the defense of the honrable Hari

There is nothing honorable to Mr. Hari dear. Its his fine piece of honest unbiased reporting that attracts me.

If it ain't based on facts, I would say that too. Dare to discuss some? Then let me hear ya.

I didn't know of Hari since recently. I just like honest reporting without a bias. As you can obviously see, Hari's opinion is critical against the Europeans governments/shippers that help dump this toxic crap. I didn't even know that and I read myself into it today. Its sick!

Thats honest reporting. What is wrong with that?

Or would you rather like me saying, that Europe is all good and doesn't do a thing wrong since we are the best??? I think NOT.

Ideal situations don't exist in this world. Only in my dreams

I'm really ed that you think his reporting is honest and unbiased. You should be embarrassed by that statement which you have made purely on the basis of reading two of his poisonous articles. It says something about you, think about that .

You have done nothing to look into his background despite being told by others here that he is not a fair man. He takes facts (which undoubtedly exist) and then distorts them, even resorting to lies to magnify his point. Also he often leaves out very salient points which contradict his viewpoint to make his article appear stronger. This is NOT journalism, rather it is sensationalist writing that many people of today prefer to honest examination of facts. He is in no way honest because he only tells half the story DELIBERATELY. Nothing that this sensationalist egomaniac says should be taken at face value.

+++

Robby, if it's Europeans these 16 year olds with guns are trying to 'tax' then why are ships of all flags being stolen? It's IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL in International law. You and Del are defending thieves.

SMALL example:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009- ... 184581.htm
About 20 percent of Chinese merchant ships passing through the waters off Somalia were attacked by pirates from January to November in 2008, before the task force was deployed.

+++

More of Hari's lies and mangled truths:

(READ THIS ONE)
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=603
I don’t know about you, but I’m unwilling to give much credence to anything Johann Hari has to “report”. Hari, lest we forget, invented a story. Private Eye (No. 1076 21 March - 3 April 2003, page 5, HACKWATCH Hari’s Game) had the low down: (etc.)

+++
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/ ... -fool.html
(on the Iraq invasion)
So there we have it. Hari was right all along and he knows it because of "two crucial facts" which were neither crucial nor facts.

+++

http://skyrock.in/news/2009/02/15/johan ... du-phobia/
Your selective under-researched journalism is stark (etc.)

+++

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_conte ... ticle=1497

None of this factual information underscoring the role of the Palestinians themselves in failing to address water and sewage issues interests Johann Hari whose prejudicial assaults on Israel have been characterized in other independent commentary as well by extreme rhetoric and false charges. Moreover, given the newspaper's (The Independent) record in refusing to correct any of Hari's errors, readers should simply assume there is little or no factual merit in anything carried by the publication.

+++
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles ... _Op-Ed.asp

Using a falsified quote and revisionist history, Hari compares Israel to excrement.

The following communique was released by HonestReporting UK earlier this week in response to an appalling op-ed by Johann Hari published in The Independent. (etc.)

+++

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles ... orting.asp
(Hari doing exactly what he vilifies in another of his articles, not replying to facts but saying 'oh no, what about 'this'....' to deflect criticism):

HonestReporting critiqued Johann Hari's op-ed in the Independent, systematically exposing the many distortions, omissions and Hari's reliance on fringe revisionist sources and individuals. We even caught Hari employing a quote that he had previously been warned was false. Despite this, he has responded not by addressing the issues raised but by attacking us.

+++
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephill ... away.thtml
He cites as authorities for his views those paradigms of reason and decency Norman Finkelstein and Jimmy Carter. Finkelstein calls Holocaust survivors ‘frauds and hucksters’, says American Jews are ‘parasites’ and supports Hezbollah.

Hari claims his critics have not rebutted what he wrote in his article about sewage in Gaza. But Honest Reporting analysed here the many distortions, selective omissions and misrepresentations in the whole piece.

+++
http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=602228
(on the Dubai article)
He actually met with Roger and Elle of Helping Hands and they gave him a lot of information, but how odd that he forgot to mention that there are people here trying to make things better... (etc.)

+++

Etc..etc...I don't have time to uncover any more.

Speedhump wrote: I'll be interested to hear your view.

Interesting...

Del wrote:

Speedhump wrote:

Del wrote:

Speedhump wrote:However you said 'As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean'

I DIDN'T write it - it is taken from the article which, after three pages of a thread, I was hoping you might have actually read by now.

You're good with the sarcasm (that's easy of course), not too hot on logic.

I read it, strange eh? It contains no more meat than the words you quoted.

17-19 year olds with guns are not a Coastguard, they are just lawless individuals. Blacks with knives run riot on tube trains in London 'taxing' the law abiding, that's what they call their theft. Your argument is idiotic and swallows pirates' attempts to give their theft respect.

Now I'm done.

The article mentions that SOME of them are nothing but gangsters.

What's blacks on the tube got to do with anything? Are foreign companies dumping toxic waste in the back gardens of young black kids in London?
Don't use words such as logic mate.

It was an equitable comparison. Illegal 'taxing' is criminal wherever it occurs. I know it's hard but try to keep up, you did start this thread....

From The Times - arguably the most respected newspaper in Britain:

Somalia's secret dumps of toxic waste washed ashore by tsunami

Apart from killing about 300 people and destroying thousands of homes, the waves broke up rusting barrels and other containers and hazardous waste dumped along the long, remote shoreline, a spokesman for the United Nations Environment Programme (Unep) said.
Toxic waste was first dumped in Somalia in the late 1980s, but accelerated sharply during the civil war which followed the 1991 overthrow of the late dictator Mohamed Siad Barre.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 418665.ece

Is this newspaper credible enough for you guys?

Del wrote:From The Times - arguably the most respected newspaper in Britain:

Somalia's secret dumps of toxic waste washed ashore by tsunami

Apart from killing about 300 people and destroying thousands of homes, the waves broke up rusting barrels and other containers and hazardous waste dumped along the long, remote shoreline, a spokesman for the United Nations Environment Programme (Unep) said.
Toxic waste was first dumped in Somalia in the late 1980s, but accelerated sharply during the civil war which followed the 1991 overthrow of the late dictator Mohamed Siad Barre.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 418665.ece

Is this newspaper credible enough for you guys?

March 2005 publication. Don't you think that possibly some other facts have come to light since then?

Speedhump wrote:It was an equitable comparison. Illegal 'taxing' is criminal wherever it occurs. I know it's hard but try to keep up, you did start this thread....

You're starting to get personal mate. The only thing hard around here is that excited little knob in your trousers.

Illegal taxing, brought about by illegal dumping. Is illegal dumping OK then?.

Bora Bora wrote:

Del wrote:From The Times - arguably the most respected newspaper in Britain:

Somalia's secret dumps of toxic waste washed ashore by tsunami

Apart from killing about 300 people and destroying thousands of homes, the waves broke up rusting barrels and other containers and hazardous waste dumped along the long, remote shoreline, a spokesman for the United Nations Environment Programme (Unep) said.
Toxic waste was first dumped in Somalia in the late 1980s, but accelerated sharply during the civil war which followed the 1991 overthrow of the late dictator Mohamed Siad Barre.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 418665.ece

Is this newspaper credible enough for you guys?

March 2005 publication. Don't you think that possibly some other facts have come to light since then?

Like an increase in the dumping of toxic waste, perhaps?

European Companies dump toxic wastes off Somalia Coast
Monday, July 28, 2008
http://www.arabenvironment.net/archive/ ... 31837.html

'Toxic waste' behind Somali piracy
10 Oct 2008
http://www.business-humanrights.org/Lin ... _page_view

Piracy has flourished due to a number of problems brought to the Somali coast, he says.
“Give the Somali people some credit, listen to the complaints they have about, not just the loss of their fishing industry, but also the dumping of nuclear toxic waste, that we believe is taking place
http://www.rfi.fr/actuen/articles/112/article_3486.asp