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I'm away from the Middle East, but I've learned that Ramadan has actually started on WED in the UAE and most Moslem countries.

So I wish all Moslems, esp. my friends, a very blessed month. And I do feel for all of you for having to fast in this very hot month!!!!

Tom Jones wrote:I'm away from the Middle East, but I've learned that Ramadan has actually started on WED in the UAE and most Moslem countries.

So I wish all Moslems, esp. my friends, a very blessed month. And I do feel for all of you for having to fast in this very hot month!!!!

Million thanks for your nice words, I highly appreciate it Tom

You're welcome buddy!!

Nice of you to reply!

But tell me something if you can: I've heard that Ramadan has started in Oman on Thurs instead of Wed, as in the UAE and other Gulf countries.

My question is: Why is it that neighboring Moslem countries located in the same geographical region differ on a scientifically proven (and easily calculated) fact such as the birth of a new moon???

I can understand that happening between vastly separated locations (like Morocco and Pakistan), but for it to happen between the Gulf countries is utterly amazing!!!!

Cheers!!!

They can afford better telescopes in the UAE!



Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:They can afford better telescopes in the UAE!



Knight

They don't even need telescopes to figure out this natural occurrence.

We know EXACTLY what time the sun rises everyday. We don't go out every morning to verify what time the sun actually rises because we already know that information, well beforehand -- with 100% accuracy!!!!!

Ramadhan Mubarak, Ramadhan Kareem to everyone as well.

TJ - the criterion for the start of Ramadhan (indeed any lunar calendar month in the Islamic calendar) is the sighting of the new moon from that particular place on earth.

This can indeed be calculated, but it is not a simple calculation - and there is some room for subjectivity.

Firstly, the meaning of 'sighting' is debated by scholars - the majority would say this means 'visible from the earth at that time by the naked eye' - and using this definition we can work out when Ramadhan will start in each country.

We do know when the astronomical new moon is born. We know that for it to be visible from earth, it has to be around 20hours old and a certain elevation above the horizon during the night (the moon rises and sets each night, relative to the night sky). In some places the moon will be visible during the night, in others it will only become visible after the sun has risen, or the moon has set - for these places the moon will only be visible after nightfall.

So, calculations can be made (and are made) to show on which two possible days Ramadhan can start.

Now, in some places they may insist that the moon is sighted on the first possible day - and if it is not sighted (even though it may be theoretically possible), say because of cloud cover etc - then they will start Ramadhan on the second possible day. Ditto for end of Ramadhan - it would depend on whether they see the moon.

Then it gets more complicated as some authorities do not use the criterion 'visible with the naked eye' and say that if a person has viewed the new moon via a telescope that counts too - but there too, the moon physically needs to be above the horizon at that place on earth after the astronomical new moon.

In the UK, for example, some years everyone starts and ends Ramadhan on the same day (all the methods produce the same results that year) whilst in some years there are 3 separate days when Ramadhan starts (with a small number choosing either the 1st or 3rd of the days). Some in the UK in the past chose to follow the pronouncement of Ramadhan start date given by Saudi authorities in Mecca (for example), which may not be appropriate for the UK.

But, at the end of the day, Ramadhan is a month of fasting and worship so variations of start dates doesn't really impact on the substance of Ramadhan, but the system does by definition yield different lunar calendar days depending on geography.

Cheers,
Shafique

Thank you Shafique for your extensive, but rather enlightening, contribution.

I fully understand the controversy regarding this issue.

However, allow me to say the following:

1- The fact remains that the vast majority of today’s Moslems insist on the moon sighting to be done only via the naked eye. Why? Because they say we have to comply with the Sunnah. The new crescent, they say, has to be visible to the naked eye, regardless if it is actually there or not. This view is also supported by a famous Hadith that clearly orders Moslems to start and end Ramadan only based on the sighting of the new moon.

2- I have some objections to this opinion, as follows:

a- Didn’t occur to today’s Moslems that the naked eye was the only tool available to the Prophet and his companions at that time, in order to determine the start of the new lunar months??? If telescopes were available to them, don’t you think they would’ve used them instead????

b- If the Sunnah has to be followed blindly, then time clocks should not used to determine the daily prayer times, but rather Moslems should follow the shadow of the sun, because that’s what the Prophet relied upon. Likewise, clocks and calculations should not be used to decide the fasting times, but rather one must go outdoors, every morning and every evening, to look at the sky, to find out about the Imsak and Iftar times... etc.

c- Again, if the Sunnah must be followed blindly as they claim, then today’s Moslems should not use cars either, but rather ride camels. The same argument could also be applied to airplanes, reading glasses, A/C‘s, refrigerators, radios, telescopes, microphones in the mosques,…etc.

I think you now get my point.

Cheers Shaf, and Ramadan Kareem to you and to your family!!!

You're welcome Tom.

Tom Jones wrote:1- The fact remains that the vast majority of today’s Moslems insist on the moon sighting to be done only via the naked eye. Why? Because they say we have to comply with the Sunnah. The new crescent, they say, has to be visible to the naked eye, regardless if it is actually there or not. This view is also supported by a famous Hadith that clearly orders Moslems to start and end Ramadan only based on the sighting of the new moon.

Yes. I think the difficulties with the calculation of whether a new moon is visible from a given location, makes it more difficult to rely on proxies. Strictly speaking, the daily prayer times also rely on the movements of the sun - sun rise, sun set etc. We have good and unambiguous calculations about when the sun sets - and these are used by all muslims, but this is just a proxy for observing the sun dip below the horizon (important for the dusk prayer, but also for breaking the fast). (Which addresses your point 2.b above - sun set times are very good proxies for the sun rising, setting etc - but moon's visibility needs more complex calculations and are indeed used where these are calculated)

Tom Jones wrote:2- I have some objections to this opinion, as follows:

a- Didn’t occur to today’s Moslems that the naked eye was the only tool available to the Prophet and his companions at that time, in order to determine the start of the new lunar months??? If telescopes were available to them, don’t you think they would’ve used them instead????

Another argument is that Islam is a practical religion and the determination of lunar days can be done as it always has been, without relying on telescopes. Also remember that the lunar calendar pre-dates Islam, as does the way of determining the start/end of a lunar month. The difference of a day or so makes no practical difference, but for consistency the 'naked eye' definition is the most elegant.

Tom Jones wrote:b- If the Sunnah has to be followed blindly, then time clocks should not used to determine the daily prayer times, but rather Moslems should follow the shadow of the sun, because that’s what the Prophet relied upon. Likewise, clocks and calculations should not be used to decide the fasting times, but rather one must go outdoors, every morning and every evening, to look at the sky, to find out about the Imsak and Iftar times... etc.

Answered above - using the time for sun rise, noon and sun set as proxies for observing the sun's shadow and rise/set is accepted by all. Moon sighting is more complex - but when calculated is accepted as a proxy by many.

Tom Jones wrote:c- Again, if the Sunnah must be followed blindly as they claim, then today’s Moslems should not use cars either, but rather ride camels. The same argument could also be applied to airplanes, reading glasses, A/C‘s, refrigerators, radios, telescopes, microphones in the mosques,…etc.

Nope - those who say the definition is 'sighting of new moon by naked eye' also use science to calculate the exact time and place in the sky when the moon would become visible and then will use modern telescopes and point them at the exact location in the night sky where the moon will be - and will also use these calculations to check whether the moon was physically visible from any place on earth.

(Although, I do use the same argument with those who insist on dressing like 7th century Arabian men - even though they may be living in the UK... but in good humour of course. 'So, you are exposing your ankles all the time because it is sunnah - does that mean you also go about on a camel!'..? )

Ramadhan Kareem to you too.

Cheers,
Shafique

It might be better to look not at the start of Ramadan, but rather the end?

If called on a wednesday, this means that Eid will be either on a wednesday or thursday...making most of the public holiday fall over a weekend, thereby not losing any days productivity on those construction sites still operating?



Knight

Thanks again Shaf for the detailed reply.

I don’t want to turn this into a religious or an astronomical debate. We’re in General, so let’s keep it simple and brief.

No matter how the currently used system for determining the beginning and end of Ramadan is explained (or justified,) it does not make any sense to me.

For example, it is ridiculous to me that people are forced to wait until the last minute to find out when the Eid holidays start.

People cannot plan their Eid holidays this way. Hotel and airline bookings need to be made several days, if not more, in advance.

It’s also crazy to have to wait until the last minute to prepare for family reunions, weddings, travel, Eid celebrations, food catering, events, parties…etc.

There is seriously something wrong with the current system if in the year 2010, two adjacent, small countries (UAE and Oman), which are located in the same geographic location, cannot agree on what day Ramadan should start. In this day and age, that shouldn’t happen. There are now plenty of modern tools available to them that can accurately calculate the start and end of the lunar months, not just months but years in advance!

If Oman was politically part of the UAE, then the Omani people would have to start their fasting on Wed not Thurs. Right??? So it seems that it’s the politicians who decide when Ramadan should start and end. How crazy is that?????

I thought in Islam these matters are decided by a higher power!!!

My rant is over!!!

Cheers!

Hey Tom - don't worry, the most heated discussions on the subject are between Muslims - this exchange of views here is pretty tame!

Short observation: Nature is messy.

From my perspective, I think that given we can indeed work out when the moon will be visible from any point on earth, then this information can be used to calculate in advance when Eid should fall. There will always be geographical differences - there's nothing you can do about that when one uses a lunar cycle as a guide. (Nature is messy, anything based on natural cycles will therefore also be messy to some extent)

We define a year as the time it takes the earth to go round the sun. This requires us to use leap years to adjust for the fact it is not exactly 365 days in a solar year.

Similarly, the atomic clocks are more accurate than the earth's rotation - so we have to adjust standard time by adding or deleting a second every few years to account for the earth speeding up or rotating.

In both cases, 'seconds' and 'years' are proxies for the movement of celestial bodies. Therefore the lunar calendar just follows the same convention and you will always get differences of one day or so depending on geography and where the moon is in the sky that time of year (solar year). (And if you study history, you may recall that there were even riots when most of the world switched from a Julian calendar to a Gregorian one. Also did you know that Ethiopia is one country that didn't switch and so has two sets of dates, and times even - which makes interesting when visiting the country!!)

The beauty and wisdom of using a lunar calendar for Ramadhan is that it cycles through the solar year - so all places on earth can have Ramadhan during summer and winter etc during the 30 year cycle. But with that variation through the solar year, there is the uncertainty about the dates (but only within a window of 2 possible days - so let's keep it in context).

I totally agree though that politicians choosing when holidays fall for business or other considerations doesn't make sense. But these are peripheral issues and Muslims the world over shrug and wish that those in charge could get their acts together and agree on a standard. Herding cats would be easier though.

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry for my late reply, I did not read all of the other comments, I just had a quick look. However to sum it up (my way), all I can say is that they differ in duration/days due to difference in mazhab. Honestly, Oman veryyyy often announces the 1st day of Ramadan 1 day after the rest of the GCC, and I don't buy their excuses in "we did not see the moon or cresent". Oman is few Km far away from the Emirates, so if the moon can be seen in the UAE then it should be seen in Oman as well. Mind you, Oman's official mazhab is Ibathy/Ibazy, while the rest of the GCC they track the Sunni mazhab.