Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai General Chat

I never 'claimed' that stuff was published about this particular person Dillon - it's merely fact that many live in these conditions in the UAE. Simple as.

Chocoholic wrote:I never 'claimed' that stuff was published about this particular person Dillon - it's merely fact that many live in these conditions in the UAE. Simple as.

Aah right so... nothing to do with the thread subject, you just wanted to talk about a biased opinion of conditions in a Dubai labour camp then, right

No but it's simple fact. As I already said before, the likely case is that he had a lot of issues going on, compounded by the death of his brother and was refused the leave to go and mourn with his family.

That info was aimed at BM, as she seems to think all labourers probably live in 5 star accomodation, work easy hours and get paid lots of dosh!

@BB, Bi-polar is split into 3 distinct areas, Cyclothemia, Bi-polar 1 and Bi-polar 2 and they are all chemical imbalances. Many people go without drugs to treat it and are perfectly fine with therapy and support and keeping their lives in 'order', for others it's completely debilitating.

Dillon wrote:Calm down dear, calm down...So tell me how you’ve managed to paint a picture of a construction labourer, sharing accommodation in a room with 6-10 other labourers, with overflowing septic tanks, dirty water, cramped rooms, vermin, living on a paltry amount of money. Abandoned by their companies as they've gone out of business, so these guys are left being owed months in wages, no passport and no one to help them, suffering from depression?

In the articles I’ve read he was a 30 Year old Asian Man probably Indian who worked for a company with premises in the Burj Khalifa, show me where everything else you’ve claimed has been published?

How do you know he wasn’t a well paid middle management white collar worker? How do you know he was suffering from depression? I think you two need to calm down and save your judgement and comment on others until further details, if made available have been released, we’re all aware of the tragedy of suicide and don’t need any lectures about it, thank you very much. The fact still remains, there will be more suffering due to the selfish actions of this particular individual than if he hadn’t have committed suicide, whether he was suffering a mental disorder or not, if you don’t agree with that statement I suggest you make your comments about the subject and not any of the authors.

Are your drawers riding up Dillon? Are you having a bad day that's causing you to be depressed and grouchy?

I didn't realize that we have an unofficial moderator who is an authority on just about everything.

Nothing like taking your own advice: save your judgement and comment on others until further details, if made available have been released, we’re all aware of the tragedy of suicide and don’t need any lectures about it, thank you very much. Followed by your little lecture.

Even if he was middle management and making 30 K a month, does that mean he wasn't capable of being depressed?

Bora Bora wrote:Are your drawers riding up Dillon? Are you having a bad day that's causing you to be depressed and grouchy?

I didn't realize that we have an unofficial moderator who is an authority on just about everything.

Nothing like taking your own advice: save your judgement and comment on others until further details, if made available have been released, we’re all aware of the tragedy of suicide and don’t need any lectures about it, thank you very much. Followed by your little lecture.

Even if he was middle management and making 30 K a month, does that mean he wasn't capable of being depressed?

You know, BM accused me of being a miserable old sod a short while ago, I think I must need to try and exude a more positive persona, but how do you do that when you’re just, well… miserable

I’m going to ignore the main body of your post and pretend you didn’t mean it, but as for your last comment, I think an Indian in middle management earning 30K would be ecstatic and in a constant state of euphoria and too busy counting his money to be depressed!



@Chocs, Rarely, things are ‘simple as’ or ‘merely or simple fact’ as you often state, they are fully debatable, but not a discussion for this thread.

Well *NEWS FLASH NEWS FLASH*

The latest update, the employer is saying he fell and didn't jump!

Dillon wrote:You know, BM accused me of being a miserable old sod a short while ago, I think I must need to try and exude a more positive persona, but how do you do that when you’re just, well… miserable

I think an Indian in middle management earning 30K would be ecstatic and in a constant state of euphoria and too busy counting his money to be depressed!

Cheer up Dillon!!!

What you think and what is or isn't possible are two different things. There are western people who make alot more than 30K and are depressed, they just think they aren't happy, but not to the extent that they would commit suicide (yet)!!!

Cheer up matey. There are always things to think about that can make you smile

Chocoholic wrote:Well *NEWS FLASH NEWS FLASH*

The latest update, the employer is saying he fell and didn't jump!

According to the report on the radio, he went through a vent as there was no other way to get to the outside of the building. So, he fell down a vent????

What kind of a person would deny someone leave to go home to bury a close family member?? I bet the fact that he (the employer) will have this man's blood on his hands will last quite a while. Good luck to that. Maybe the employer will excuse himself by justifying it with the fact that the man was mentally disturbed??

I remind myself of Marvin, the Paranoid Android from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy sometimes;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQqeidrlDyw&feature=related

Dillon
Sorry to hear you are feeling miserable. You will stay away from the Burj wont you????

-- Wed May 11, 2011 7:35 pm --

At least if they are saying he fell his family will be entitled to some compensation. I am presuming here that he was working for Arabtec at the time. So correct me if I am wrong but as he died in an accident at work the employer is liable. And before anyone else says it (I know money won't bring him back or make their grief any less) But it may make it easier for them to grieve without any added financial burden.

Ahhh I love Marvin, so cute

patience wrote:Dillon
Sorry to hear you are feeling miserable. You will stay away from the Burj wont you????

Well Patience, the truth is I don't feel miserable! but my so-called friends here on DF are insisting I am! so I can only conclude that my everyday feeling of normality is in fact shrouded in an external depressed persona, possibly even the first stages of Alzheimers, I mean, after all, I am old.

I think I had better stay away from the Burj just to be on the safe side eeh?

Hello Patience. I thought you might be making an appearance.

When are you going to enthrall us with your Herve-like Dubai experience?

BM, I suggest you go and watch the Panorama series on the horrific conditions these men have to live in! With overflowing sesspits, dirty water, cramped rooms, vermin everywhere, living on a paltry amount of money. Many have been abandoned by their companies as they've gone out of business, so these guys are left being owed months in wages, no passport and no one to help them

.

I did watch it Chocs. I remember one part of the programme where the water had been switched off in a toilet block because there was some problem or other. The workers carried on using it regardless. I'm afraid you may find that the horrific conditions you refer to are a big step up for most of the workers.

That info was aimed at BM, as she seems to think all labourers probably live in 5 star accomodation, work easy hours and get paid lots of dosh!

Well thank you for that Chocs, you really are a mine of information!

@BB, Bi-polar is split into 3 distinct areas, Cyclothemia Bi-polar 1 and Bi-polar 2

Isn't that a sexually transmitted disease?

You know, BM accused me of being a miserable old sod a short while ago

Ah! but not on the public forum!

Ah, so Dillon is the ex-friend BM alluded to in another thread. No worries Dillon, somehow I think you're better off!

Anyone can become depressed, no matter what salary or how "great" their life is according to others. It is only natural for those around the person committing suicide to feel upset at the trauma they have caused to everyone, but it is unrealistic. In the mind of the person who killed themselves they had no choice but to do it because they were feeling so desperate. Normal thinking people cannot identify with that desperation - it would be a frightening place to be! I feel sympathy for the person committing suicide.

A mental illness is an explanation, not an excuse, unless you claim insanity.

kanelli wrote:Ah, so Dillon is the ex-friend BM alluded to in another thread. No worries Dillon, somehow I think you're better off!

Well there you go again! Engaging keyboard before brain! What an over active imagination you have.
Just to shut you up I will tell you that the reference Dillon and I made was to a bit of friendly banter away from the forum.

So you are wrong AGAIN.

Don't worry, there's no need to apologise.

Bethsmum wrote:

kanelli wrote:Ah, so Dillon is the ex-friend BM alluded to in another thread. No worries Dillon, somehow I think you're better off!

Well there you go again! Engaging keyboard before brain! What an over active imagination you have.
Just to shut you up I will tell you that the reference Dillon and I made was to a bit of friendly banter away from the forum.

So you are wrong AGAIN.

Don't worry, there's no need to apologise.

Sorry!

-- Thu May 12, 2011 8:52 am --

Flying Dutchman wrote:A mental illness is an explanation, not an excuse, unless you claim insanity.

I think being so desperate so as to kill yourself definitely qualifies as a state of insanity.

Don't be. It gives me great pleasure when you make an arse of yourself.

Bethsmum wrote:Don't be. It gives me great pleasure when you make an arse of yourself.

Yes, I'm totally kicking myself right now that I got something so important wrong. I really screwed up didn't I? I'll have shameful and guilty feelings all day!

Back on topic.

Apparently the man was 38 years old, had no family in Dubai, was NOT a manager making 30 K a month but a cleaner making 1,000 a month if he was lucky. He lost his brother last December and did go home for the funeral, which leave should have been "compassionate" leave, but I'm sure his bossman didn't see it that way, and it seems he was in a state of depression, and asked for leave to go home. More than likely he had had plenty of time leave time in the bank as they don't generally get to go home yearly or every two years for that matter. I guess giving him leave would have had an impact on Arabtec's work schedule.

The Indian Consulate is insisting that it was an accident.
Q: How would they know if it was an accident or suicide?
A: Because the bossman told them it was an accident?

The police are insisting it was a suicide.

Is the Indian Consulate saying it is an accident so that money can be claimed? I thought the guy had left a note? People suffering accidental falls don't typically leave suicide notes.

kanelli wrote:

Bethsmum wrote:Don't be. It gives me great pleasure when you make an arse of yourself.

Yes, I'm totally kicking myself right now that I got something so important wrong. I really screwed up didn't I? I'll have shameful and guilty feelings all day!

Sorry Bora, off topic again for a moment!

Well Kanelli if you continually want to have a 'go' then indeed, carry on. All I would say is that when you post something do make sure you get your facts right. After all, it's not the first time you've been way off target, is it?
Alternatively you can live by the standards you set for others, that is to stay on topic and stop baiting. Isn't that what you preach?
What did you call DDS yesterday? A jerk? Well apparantly it takes one to know one.

OK

So let me try and understand this then. The Indian worker jumped or fell from the Burj. He left his notebook behind and removed his shoes. While you can argue that leaving his notebook was a suicide note. Why did he remove his shoes? Other reports are saying he needed to get to a vent and this was where he fell. I guess nobody could decide categorically that he jumped unless he left a suicide note which it appears he did not. I feel the spin on this is more to do with money and compensation for the family than anything else. In the event of being unable to say categorically that he jumped (no matter how depressed) the company should just pay the family the compensation money and move on. From the reports so far (however inaccurate the reporting in Dubai) it does not seem to be clear cut. So as an act of compassion and to avoid bringing the contributing factors to this guys depression under the spotlight (ie workers rights, conditions) it would seem to me the best solution for Dubai is to pay the family compensation and be done with it. But knowing Dubai if there is a wrong way to handle a situation they'll take it every time.

Someone died, initially thought of as suicide, but now a doubt has been created as to whether he fell by accident, or 'jumped'.

Lets look at the option of suicide, he must have reached the end of his tether, the horrendous conditions these poor chaps live in, the fact that they are away from their homes and families, the fact that they cannot travel back home (forget the lack of money) because they don't have the necessary documents to be able to do so. Absolutely deplorable.

Now, having been a silent spectator of Dubaiforums for a while, this post made me want to put in my two-cents worth. The simple reason is this: I am frustrated with the crap BM has come out with not only in this post, but in others. Initially I used to think Chocs was being an equal troublemaker, but having seen BM's response on this thread alone, I am sickened by the inhumane thinking going on in that head.

BM - you mention that in your line of work you come across people with issues on a regular basis? You may do, however please correct me if i'm wrong, you live in the UK, where there is a welfare state, there are obvious human rights, and when you walk the streets you are not treated differently whether you are the CEO of a big company, or a chap selling the Big Issue outside a tube station.

Please dont compare your daily experiences out side of Dubai, with something you obviously know nothing about.

I am not a regular on this forum, I do not want to get involved in a slanging match, I just think you should look in the mirror and reflect the thoughts on the thought that you have about the unfortunate circumstances about this death.

onthepalm wrote: I am frustrated with the crap BM has come out with not only in this post, but in others. Initially I used to think Chocs was being an equal troublemaker, but having seen BM's response on this thread alone, I am sickened by the inhumane thinking going on in that head.

BM - you mention that in your line of work you come across people with issues on a regular basis? You may do, however please correct me if i'm wrong, you live in the UK, where there is a welfare state, there are obvious human rights, and when you walk the streets you are not treated differently whether you are the CEO of a big company, or a chap selling the Big Issue outside a tube station.

Please dont compare your daily experiences out side of Dubai, with something you obviously know nothing about.

I am not a regular on this forum, I do not want to get involved in a slanging match, I just think you should look in the mirror and reflect the thoughts on the thought that you have about the unfortunate circumstances about this death.

I'm afraid I speak as I find. I firmly believe that suicide is the easy way out. It's ok for him now as he is well out of it. It's the family left behind that I feel for, and the person who found him and anyone who watched his fall. If you think that is inhumane, well that's your opinion, to which you are entitled, the same as I'm entitled to mine.
You may, or may not be aware of the welfare system in the UK. The fact is that not everyone is entitled to benefits. It's often the people who work, but on a low income who fall foul of the benefit system. People can also get themselves into debt, from which there is no obvious way out. These people can be as desperate as anyone else and their problems are huge to them. Having said that they don't go round jumping off buildings or throwing themselves under cars.
I'm afraid you are quite wrong when you say I know nothing about Dubai. Just because I don't live in Dubai, it doesn't mean I don't know anything about the place. I think you'll find that there are a number of posters here who don't live in Dubai either. Do you dismiss their opinions, or accept them as they agree with yours?
You are quite correct when you say someone died. If he committed suicide then it was his decision.
I'm afraid I don't particularly care whether you are sickened by my thinking. It's my opinion and I don't seek anyone's approval.

BM - your response is appreciated, and i understand we all have a right to our own opinions.

I myself spend only 2 weeks a month in Dubai, the other 2 weeks are spent in the UK, so I am, as you may well be, familiar with the sorry state of those in debt in the UK, however, they will never out of choice be homeless, local councils will provide accomodation in the events of home reposessions, etc, etc, even if in bed-sits. Whereas the chaps who are in similar debts in Dubai, many of which have homes and family in India or the like, they either pay cash for their living, or they rot.

So if comparing, it should be like for like. No point in comparing mountains to mites.

Whether our opinions on any persons death should really be discussed on any forum is another question altogether, In this case, he died, his family is in grief, I dont agree with suicide at all, I think it shows weakness, but in the case of a labourer in Dubai, we all know and maybe ignore the fact that they are forced to be the weaker beings, due to the arrogance of 'other than' labourers. How can one justify the taking away of someones passport, the 1 trip home every so many years??

Im sure if, God forbid we were in that position, we'd be pretty mentally battered as well.

A travesty indeed.

Well, if there's one thing we agree on, it's that it's a travesty.

I wonder if I may make a couple of comments on your post?

As I said previously, anyone who has serious problems, whether they be debt, marriage breakdowns or anything else traumatic going on in their life will think there's are the worst problems, ever.
You mention local councils providing bed sits for homeless people. Now you've touched on something I do know about as I work for a local council in the very office that deals with benefits and local taxation and I can say here and now that your statement is not correct. Councils do not provide bedsits for people with home repossesions. At the very best, if you have children, you will get a few nights B&B. If you don't have children, you get nothing, baring a list of private landlords where you would be expected to pay a deposit and rent in advance. If you are very lucky you may be able to get a crisis loan from the DWP for the deposit that would be clawed back from your benefits and if you aren't in receipt of benefits, you get nothing.
Making yourself intentionally homeless, in other words, having your home repossesed, is frowned upon and the Council will only step in if there are children involved.

At the risk of incuring further wrath, I also believe there is a pecking order in life. That's not saying I agree with it, I'm a realist. It's just the way things are, always have been and always will be. I can do nothing about it and therefore I don't get excited about it. There are many better off than me and many many worse off. i am neither envious of those better off nor feel sorry for those who are worse off. It's just the way it is. The labourers come to Dubai as there is nothing for them in their own countrys. They see a chance of making some money for their families back home and jump at the chance. Most, I would imagine, are not capable of holding anything else down, but being a basic labourer. Someone has to be a labourer and unlucky for them, it's them.
Most here appear to be shocked at the thought of them not being able to visit their families very often. I think it's probably what they expect. It always amazes me when I talk to the Filipino nail technicians in the nail bars in Dubai. (Where else would I come across Filipinos where I would hold a conversation for more than an hour?). These women willingly leave their husbands and children for years without a visit home! They don't appear particularly hard up, send money home and seem fairly happy. Obviously they would prefer to be at home but accept that they will be away for years, missing their kids childhoods. It's what they have come to accept.
Not every one expects to visit their home or family every year.

I can't comment on companies with holding passports. Most would be useless to the workers anyway. They would either be stolen and sold or they would sell them. themselves. sorry if this offends but it's what I think.

You talk about being emotionally battered. I was talking to a woman today that was very emotionally battered. I had organised our bailiffs from Liverpool to pay her a visit. She had ignored all my letters about her business rate arrears so I sent the big boys in. She finally made contact with me. Her husband had left her with a small child and a pub to run. She owns the business and the building and is in dire straights. She gets up at 6am, is the pubs cleaner, does all the celler work, takes the child to and from school, opens the bar at lunch time and keeps it open if she has any customers, opens every night and if the locals turn up at 10.30pm, keeps it open till midnight. she has to employ a cook and a couple of kids at the weekend. she has to pay her suppliers and has nothing left. She couldn't offer me a penny. She was past herself with worry and tiredness. I suggested she close the pub. She explained that the operating the business was a clause of the mortgage and all that she owned was tied up in it. She had advertised it for sale for a year and had no takers.
She cried like a baby on the phone as I explained the next step was comittal to prison.
Now that's being mentally battered and never once did she threaten suicide.

Do you know it feels to be so depressed and in a dark space that you feel there is no other option? When you are that low you cannot think normally and you do not consider the impact on others. It is a place of deep suffering that the person wants to be relieved from. If everyone was so rational about suicide then they wouldn't be doing it! I find the judgement just ridiculous.