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S.ex is for sale in every bar. Couples who publicly kiss are jailed, yet the state turns a blind eye to 30,000 imported prostitutes, says William Butler - The Observer, Sunday 16 May 2010

The bosomy blonde in a tight, low-cut evening dress slid on to a barstool next to me and began the chat: Where are you from? How long are you here? Where are you staying? I asked her what she did for a living. "You know what I do," she replied. "I'm a whore."

As I looked around the designer bar on the second floor of the glitzy five-star hotel, it was obvious that every woman in the place was a prostitute. And the men were all potential punters, or at least window-shoppers.

While we talked, Jenny, from Minsk in Belarus, offered me "everything, what you like, all night" for the equivalent of about £500. It was better if I was staying in the luxurious hotel where we were drinking, she said, but if not she knew another one, cheaper but "friendly". I turned down the offer.

This was not Amsterdam's red-light district or the Reeperbahn in Hamburg or a bar on Shanghai's Bund. This was in the city centre of Dubai, the Gulf emirate where western women get a month in prison for a peck on the cheek; the Islamic city on Muhammad's peninsula where the muezzin's call rings out five times a day drawing believers to prayer; where public consumption of alcohol prompts immediate arrest; where adultery is an imprisonable offence; and where mall shoppers are advised against "overt displays of affection", such as kissing.

Ayman Najafi and Charlotte Adams, the couple recently banged up in Al Awir desert prison for a brief public snog, must have been very unlucky indeed, because in reality Dubai is a heaving maelstrom of sexual activity that would make the hair stand up on even the most worldly westerner's head. It is known by some residents as "Sodom-sur-Mer".

Beach life, cafe society, glamorous lifestyles, fast cars and deep tans are all things associated with "romance" in the fog-chilled minds of Europeans and North Americans. And there is a fair amount of legitimate "romance" in Dubai. Western girls fall for handsome, flash Lebanese men; male visitors go for the dusky charms of women from virtually anywhere. Office and beach affairs are common.

But most of the "romance" in Dubai is paid-for sex, accepted by expatriates as the norm, and to which a blind eye is turned – at the very least – by the authorities. The bar where "Jenny" approached me was top-of-the-range, where expensively dressed and coiffured girls can demand top dollar from wealthy businessmen or tourists.

There are lots of these establishments. Virtually every five-star hotel has a bar where "working girls" are tolerated, even encouraged, to help pull in the punters with cash to blow. But it goes downhill from there. At sports and music bars, Fillipinas vie with the Russians and women from the former Soviet republics for custom at lower prices. In the older parts of the city, Deira and Bur Dubai, Chinese women undercut them all in the lobbies of three-star hotels or even on the streets (although outside soliciting is still rare).

It is impossible to estimate accurately the prostitute population of Dubai. The authorities would never give out such figures, and it would be hard to take into account the "casual" or "part-time" sex trade. One recent estimate put the figure at about 30,000 out of a population of about 1.5 million. A similar ratio in Britain would mean a city the size of Glasgow and Leeds combined entirely populated by prostitutes.

Of course, there are other cities in the world where the "oldest profession" is flourishing. But what makes Dubai prostitution different is the level of acceptance it has by the clients and, apparently, the city's Islamic authorities. Although strictly illegal under United Arab Emirates' and Islamic law, it is virtually a national pastime.

I have seen a six-inch-high stack of application forms in the offices of a visa agent, each piece of paper representing a hopeful "tourist" from Russia, Armenia or Uzbekistan. The passport-sized photographs are all of women in their 20s seeking one-month visas for a holiday in the emirate.

Maybe young Aida from Tashkent – oval-eyed and pouting – will find a few days' paid work as a maid or shop assistant while she's in Dubai, and maybe she will even get an afternoon or two on the beach as her holiday. But most nights she will be selling herself in the bars and hotels and the immigration authorities know that. So must the visa agent, who gets his cut out of each £300 visa fee.

The higher you go up the Emirati food chain, the bigger the awards. All UAE nationals are entitled to a number of residence visas, which they routinely use to hire imported domestics, drivers or gardeners. But they will sell the surplus to middlemen who trade them on to women who want to go full-time and permanent in the city. The higher the social and financial status of the Emirati, the more visas he has to "farm".

Thousands of women buy entitlement to full-time residence, and lucrative employment, in this way. Three years in Dubai – the normal duration of a residence visa – can be the difference between lifelong destitution and survival in Yerevan, Omsk or Bishkek.

With a residence visa changing hands at upwards of £5,000 a time, it is a nice sideline, even for a wealthy national. And it also ensures a convenient supply of sex for Emiratis, who form a large proportion of the punters at the kind of bar where I met "Jenny". Arabs from other countries are high up the "johns" list, with Saudis in particular looking for distraction from life in their austere Wahabist homes with booze and sex-fuelled weekends in Dubai's hotels.

The other big category of punters is Europeans and Americans, and it is remarkable how quickly it all seems normal. A few drinks with the lads on a Thursday night, maybe a curry, some semi-intoxicated ribaldry, and then off to a bar where you know "that" kind of girl will be waiting. In the west, peer group morality might frown on such leisure activities, but in Dubai it's as normal as watching the late-night movie.

Male residents whose families are also in Dubai might be a little constrained most of the year – you could not really introduce Ludmilla from Lvov, all cleavage and stilettos, as a work colleague with whom you wanted to "run over a few things on the laptop". But in the long, hot summer it is different. Wives and families escape the heat by going to Europe or the US, and the change that comes over the male expat population is astounding. Middle-aged men in responsible jobs – accountants, marketeers, bankers – who for 10 months of the year are devoted husbands, transform in July and August into priapic stallions roaming the bars of Sheikh Zayed Road.

Tales are swapped over a few beers the next night, positions described, prices compared, nationalities ranked according to performance. It could be the Champions League we are discussing, not paid-for sex.

I've heard financial types justifying it as part of the process of globalisation, another manifestation of the west-east "tilt" by which world economic power is gravitating eastwards.

In my experience, many men will be unfaithful if they have the opportunity and a reasonable expectation that they will not be found out. For expats in Dubai, the summer months provide virtual laboratory conditions for infidelity.

Above all, there is opportunity. There is the Indonesian maid who makes it apparent that she has no objection to extending her duties, for a price; the central Asian shop assistant in one of the glittering malls who writes her mobile number on the back of your credit card receipt "in case you need anything else"; the Filipina manicurist at the hairdresser's who suggests you might also want a pedicure in the private room.

Even though selling sex is haram (forbidden) under Islamic law, the authorities rarely do anything about it. Occasionally, an establishment will break some unwritten rule. Cyclone, a notorious whorehouse near the airport, was closed down a few years back, but then it really did go too far – a special area of the vast sex supermarket was dedicated to in-house oral sex. When the authorities ordered it to be closed, the girls simply moved elsewhere.

There are occasional stories in the local papers of human trafficking rings being broken up and the exploiters arrested, but it is low-level stuff, usually involving Asian or Chinese gangs and Indian or Nepalese girls. The real problem is the high-end business, with official sanction. Even with the emirate's financial problems, Sodom-sur-Mer is flourishing. But would-be snoggers beware – your decadent behaviour will not be tolerated.

William Butler is a pseudonym for a writer who lived in Dubai for four years and recently returned to Britain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... ostitution

"I have seen a six-inch-high stack of application forms in the offices of a visa agent, each piece of paper representing a hopeful "tourist" from Russia, Armenia or Uzbekistan. The passport-sized photographs are all of women in their 20s seeking one-month visas for a holiday in the emirate."


There is still professionals coming here....I knew it!!!

The irony is that the hooker thing in the mid east is a result of islam, which restricts interaction between men and women outside marriage.
Hey, great idea in principle, but forgot one thing... men think with their banana, and their is no religion that will convince them not to.
In the west, hookers are seen as a last resort.
In the arab world, they are a rite of passage to manhood.
I doubt that any practicing muslims have ever had sex with anyone else other than a hooker or their wife.
And the less connected they are to a hooker, the less guilt their is to bear, which leads to less respect for woman in general (que female circumcision).

benwj wrote:I doubt that any practicing muslims have ever had love with anyone else other than a hooker or their wife.
And the less connected they are to a hooker, the less guilt their is to bear, which leads to less respect for woman in general (que female circumcision).

Fascinating logic.

Are you saying that sleeping around leads men to respect more? Or are you saying only the Muslims who go against Islam and fornicate are the ones who disrespect women?

Most Muslim countries have women mixing in society - but typically just not 'showing flesh' - so may I presume you actually meant that if men and women ate freely and women wear skimpy clothes - then the society will have more respect for women.

If only we could test that theory by looking at societies where this 'ideal' is practiced and look at things like statistics and evidence... nah, silly idea. Let's just stick to what we 'think' / 'believe' is true.

[In case I'm unclear - I'm just being sarcastic, how women are treated in Islam etc have been discussed many times in the religion forum. ]


As for the article - hardly news for anyone who knows much about Dubai, and makes the points very well. Hypocrisy is a nasty business indeed.

Cheers,
Shafique

"As for the article - hardly news for anyone who knows much about Dubai, and makes the points very well. Hypocrisy is a nasty business indeed."

Great selling point for a European considering a holiday though eh?
Whenever I go back to the UK and I tell people that this goes on they never quite believe me.

Hey if you got it flaunt it

desertdudeshj wrote:Hey if you got it flaunt it

Don't you mean if you got it, sell it?

Bora Bora wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Hey if you got it flaunt it

Don't you mean if you got it, sell it?

I would love to know who the real money makers are here. The faceless Pimps behind it all!

Bora Bora wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Hey if you got it flaunt it

Don't you mean if you got it, sell it?

I would but nobodys buying

Even at rock bottom prices

smoggie wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Hey if you got it flaunt it

Don't you mean if you got it, sell it?

I would love to know who the real money makers are here. The faceless Pimps behind it all!

I could tell you, but then I would have to shoot you!



Knight

Simple, there is only one leader. Sheikh Mo gets all the blame, but also the credits.

Above all, there is opportunity. There is the Indonesian maid who makes it apparent that she has no objection to extending her duties, for a price; the central Asian shop assistant in one of the glittering malls who writes her mobile number on the back of your credit card receipt "in case you need anything else"; the Filipina manicurist at the hairdresser's who suggests you might also want a pedicure in the private room.

There is a lot of hard-working women in the UAE and even if that was true; it has nothing to do with the authorities. People who "live" in Dubai know that during recession times and where a lot of people, including women, losing jobs and stay unemployed for months many didn't turn into prostitution.

For the bloke who connects prostitution to Islam; Red light district isn't in an Islamic state as far as I know. Haven't you heard of the term se.xual tourism before? Men are polygamous by nature and having a mistress, a one night stand, a night with a pro is happening every where and in all times.

There are double standards in Dubai and skewed regulations yes. And the easiest way to analyze them is to put Arabs, se.x, Islam, women in a sentence, right? I suggest that you change what you're smoking!

shafique wrote:

benwj wrote:I doubt that any practicing muslims have ever had love with anyone else other than a hooker or their wife.
And the less connected they are to a hooker, the less guilt their is to bear, which leads to less respect for woman in general (que female circumcision).

Fascinating logic.

Are you saying that sleeping around leads men to respect more?

I don't know about you, but I don't have woman throwing themselves at me for sex, and one of the unfortunate inconveniences of sleeping around, is that the woman has to agree... Mutual respect comes in there somewhere or rather.

shafique wrote:Or are you saying only the Muslims who go against Islam and fornicate are the ones who disrespect women?

''only'' is a poor choice of word.
I would have used ''many'' myself.
''only'' would be appropriate if you believe that most abstain from sex before marriage, or that the thousands of hookers in Dubai get very little business from muslims.

I still don't know what to make of the respect issue. I would disrespect myself for using a hooker and feel that I wouod need to disrespect women to do so.
I disrespect the western men because they have other options and are taking the easy one, but the muslim men seem to think nothing of it, and it is difficult to blame them for doing something that they don't think is a bad thing. Well no- where near as bad as drinking alcohol or eating pork.

All I'm saying is that hookers are in Dubai to provide a service to Muslim men who cannot get it anywhere else.

This was in the city centre of Dubai, the Gulf emirate where western women get a month in prison for a peck on the cheek; the Islamic city on Muhammad's peninsula where the muezzin's call rings out five times a day drawing believers to prayer; where public consumption of alcohol prompts immediate arrest; where adultery is an imprisonable offence; and where mall shoppers are advised against "overt displays of affection", such as kissing.


so dubai is not islamic at all oh my god....i'm so confused now as i'm a muslima....

benwj wrote:

shafique wrote:Are you saying that sleeping around leads men to respect more?

I don't know about you, but I don't have woman throwing themselves at me for love, and one of the unfortunate inconveniences of sleeping around, is that the woman has to agree... Mutual respect comes in there somewhere or rather.

No, I don't have women throwing themselves at me for s.ex either.

So, sleeping around means that you learn to respect the women who either succumb to your charms and sleep with you and those who say 'get away from me you perv, not in your dreams'.

You'll have to excuse me for asking, but the question is how does this process lead to men having +more+ respect for women than if men just limit themselves to the marital bed? I presume you're saying that if men go with prostitutes only (and don't go through the hassle of dating and risking rejection) they'll have a lower estimation of women, because perhaps they will view all women as prostitutes - or will treat their mothers and wives with less respect?

As, I said, this seems to be a fascinating logic - rather than acknowledging that going with prostitutes is the wrong thing here, it appears to be saying that sleeping with women for 'free' will give men more respect than if they have to pay for it.

benwj wrote:

shafique wrote:Or are you saying only the Muslims who go against Islam and fornicate are the ones who disrespect women?

''only'' is a poor choice of word.
I would have used ''many'' myself.
''only'' would be appropriate if you believe that most abstain from love before marriage, or that the thousands of hookers in Dubai get very little business from muslims.

Ok, let's pursue this logic.

The new phrasing would be:
"MANY of the Muslims who go against Islam and fornicate are the ones who disrespect women?"

However, my 'only' was actually referring to the Muslim men who disrespect women, are the ones who fornicate. Your phrasing implies that some of the Men who fornicate also respect women.

Let me put it another way, are you saying that it is the fornication (buying s.ex with prostitutes) that leads to the disrespect of women - i.e. therefore it is only the Muslims who break the laws of Islam and go with prossies who open themselves up to this influence?

benwj wrote:I still don't know what to make of the respect issue. I would disrespect myself for using a hooker and feel that I wouod need to disrespect women to do so.

Well, Muslims would have the additonal guilt that they are sinning to boot. However, your theory is that this going with prossies leads to disrespect of women in general (unless I'm mistaken)

benwj wrote:I disrespect the western men because they have other options and are taking the easy one, but the muslim men seem to think nothing of it, and it is difficult to blame them for doing something that they don't think is a bad thing. Well no- where near as bad as drinking alcohol or eating pork.

All I'm saying is that hookers are in Dubai to provide a service to Muslim men who cannot get it anywhere else.

'Seem to think nothing of it' can be applied to all sins - be they drug taking, robbery, murder etc - human nature is such that where easy recourse is made to things that appeal to our animal instincts, humans tend to take advantage of it.

The fact that there are hookers is a function of supply and demand. Sure there are Muslim men who use hookers, just as there are Muslims who drink, eat pork etc. I'd just challenge you on the assertion that 'they think nothing of it' - I would rather argue that they all know perfectly well it is a sin and going against Islam - and their more observant siblings would not hesitate in pointing this out.

However, the point I wanted clarification of was your theory about the link between prossies in a society and men disrespecting women, and specifically that just dating rather than paying for s.ex would lead to men respecting women more!

Cheers,
Shafique

Normally people doing such heinous crimes are ashamed. Here we have a molester who "showed fierce resistance" when confronted....
And the molester didnt appear in court, meaning he is happily roaming around !

Woman in a coma was ‘molested while lying in her hospital bed’
Wafa Issa

Last Updated: May 16. 2010 8:47PM UAE / May 16. 2010 4:47PM GMT DUBAI // A female patient at Rashid Hospital was sexually assaulted while lying in a coma after an Emirati security guard went into her room, a Dubai court was told yesterday.
M E was charged in the Dubai Criminal Court of First Instance with sexual assault. He allegedly spent the night of April 4 in M A’s hospital bed and molested her on several parts of her body.

The defendant entered the patient’s room, asked D K, a nurse, to leave and locked the door after her, according to Dubai Public Prosecution records.



D K allegedly saw the suspect kissing the woman through a glass panel in the door. She was also surprised to find him lying beside M A and holding her hand in the early hours of the following day.

Hospital security officers intervened after being notified that there was a male in the female patients’ section, prosecution records showed. “I went to check out the situation and I saw the suspect,” K R, a hospital security guard, told police. “I got him out of the room after fierce resistance and I heard him telling the nurses that he was the husband of the patient, to later change his mind and say that he is her brother.”



The case was adjourned until May 26 to bring the suspect to court. He was not present for yesterday’s hearing.

@ Benwj and Shafique.

Women aren't throwing themselves at you? Possibly because you don't frequent those bars where every night is "ladies night". If you decide to, I believe Wednesday is "two for one".

Ahh, that's where I'm going wrong!

Thanks for the 'heads up' - oooh err missus!

Cheers,
Shafique

No problem. Possibly some of the guys on DF can help "straighten" you out as to where to go.

Just put your finger in a 'dyke' and you're 'hookered' for life!

I bet you've been saving that dutch quip for a very long time now !

They come to me like the wind, DD. I'm a natural.

BlackburnRovers wrote:
The defendant entered the patient’s room, asked D K, a nurse, to leave and locked the door after her, according to Dubai Public Prosecution records.
D K allegedly saw the suspect kissing the woman through a glass panel in the door. She was also surprised to find him lying beside M A and holding her hand in the early hours of the following day.

WTF!!!!

It wasn't me, I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it!!!!!



Knight

Sure sure, and recently you have been telling us about your Dutch girlfriend with personality disorder etc etc.

You came, you saw and you hit her.

Bora Bora wrote:@ Benwj and Shafique.

Women aren't throwing themselves at you? Possibly because you don't frequent those bars where every night is "ladies night". If you decide to, I believe Wednesday is "two for one".

also Sunday, Monday and Tuesday so i hear

arniegang wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:@ Benwj and Shafique.

Women aren't throwing themselves at you? Possibly because you don't frequent those bars where every night is "ladies night". If you decide to, I believe Wednesday is "two for one".

also Sunday, Monday and Tuesday so i hear

Which leaves Thursday, Friday and Saturday for the pimps to count their cash.

And the locals don't work Friday and Saturday.

So that leaves Thursday as a work day.

And its a half day!



Knight

shafique wrote:No, I don't have women throwing themselves at me for s.ex either.

So, sleeping around means that you learn to respect the women who either succumb to your charms and sleep with you and those who say 'get away from me you perv, not in your dreams'.

You'll have to excuse me for asking, but the question is how does this process lead to men having +more+ respect for women than if men just limit themselves to the marital bed? I presume you're saying that if men go with prostitutes only (and don't go through the hassle of dating and risking rejection) they'll have a lower estimation of women, because perhaps they will view all women as prostitutes - or will treat their mothers and wives with less respect?

I never mentioned cheating on your wife but, I think that we can both agree that (apart from 2nd, 3rd and 4th 'wife') this is unacceptable, no matter who it is with… so how about we stick with the hooker vs girlfriend, pre-marital s.ex comparison.
Your ‘lower estimation of women’ theory seems rational, and I would add that prostitution treats women as material items with no feelings.

shafique wrote:As, I said, this seems to be a fascinating logic - rather than acknowledging that going with prostitutes is the wrong thing here, it appears to be saying that sleeping with women for 'free' will give men more respect than if they have to pay for it.

By stating that using hookers is disrespectful to women, implies that using hookers is wrong… sorry for not being clearer.
However, to answer your question: Yes, imo a “‘free’” one with your girlfriend is the better of 2 evils.

shafique wrote:Let me put it another way, are you saying that it is the fornication (buying s.ex with prostitutes) that leads to the disrespect of women - i.e. therefore it is only the Muslims who break the laws of Islam and go with prossies who open themselves up to this influence?

It’s a case of ‘which came first?’
Dis-respect of women is a pre-requisit to use a hooker and I can therefore assume that it leads to dis-respect of women.
But there you go again with the ‘only’ assumption.
Lets face it, not many men (including muslims) have your conviction shafique, and there is a reason why there are so many hookers in Dubai, despite it being a, muslim country… run by devout muslims.
I’ll enlighten you later.

shafique wrote:Well, Muslims would have the additonal guilt that they are sinning to boot. However, your theory is that this going with prossies leads to disrespect of women in general (unless I'm mistaken)

No, you are not mistaken.
Don’t you agree that having s.ex with a prostitute is disrespectful to women? Its just that you are continually questioning this, and I would have thought that the general consensus was that having s.ex with a prostitute is not something to be proud of, religious reasons aside.

shafique wrote:The fact that there are hookers is a function of supply and demand. Sure there are Muslim men who use hookers, just as there are Muslims who drink, eat pork etc. I'd just challenge you on the assertion that 'they think nothing of it' - I would rather argue that they all know perfectly well it is a sin and going against Islam - and their more observant siblings would not hesitate in pointing this out.

The demand in Dubai is different to demand in Dublin for example.
Hookers are in Dubai to provide a service to muslim men who have no other option (and of course a few non-muslim desperados, that we are normally accustomed to in places such as Bangkok). Yes, they know that is it wrong (just as devout Catholics know that s.ex before marriage with their girlfriend is wrong), but having a girlfriend is not an option for the young muslim men. Having a girlfriend requires emotional involvement, and it cannot be hidden behind closed doors. Being with a girlfriend also involves sinning continuously, whilst an hour with a hooker is a relatively a short sin… easier to dismiss.
It is relatively easy to resist the temptations of pork and alcohol (well not for me, but I am sure that most devout muslims do).
But for a young 19yo stud with testosterone coursing through his veins, who thinks that he’s gods’s gift to women…what are they gonna do? go to the mosque and pray that the urges will disappear??
As I said, there are not many men who have that level of conviction shafique, maybe a few priests, but look what they need to turn to instead!
There is a very blasé attitude to prostitution in Dubai and it is not enforced because there is not only a demand, but there is a need for it.
I agree that s.ex before marriage, even with a girlfriend, is not ideal, but I am also realistic and understand that it is very common, including in the muslim community.
The difference is that I have the option/"hassle of dating and risking rejection”. Muslim men don't have this luxury.
It may also be relevant to note that the hookers in Dubai are not muslim themselves, which raises a few questions on justification.
Is it not as bad to have s.ex with a non-muslim and blame them for tempting you?
Is it possible to have s.ex with a non-muslim woman but respect muslim women?

shafique wrote:However, the point I wanted clarification of was your theory about the link between prossies in a society and men disrespecting women, and specifically that just dating rather than paying for s.ex would lead to men respecting women more!

Clarification:
Is it possible to have s.ex with a prostitute and respect women. No
Is it possible to have s.ex with your girlfriend and respect women. Yes… of course not always, but I would hope so.

Bora Bora wrote:No problem. Possibly some of the guys on DF can help "straighten" you out as to where to go.

Who do you have in mind???

DK????

Tom Jones wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:No problem. Possibly some of the guys on DF can help "straighten" you out as to where to go.

Who do you have in mind???

DK????

Er...am I the DF Pimp now?

Last time I looked, I don't drive a white Cadillac convertible with pink fur seats and Colt 45's for door handles. My platform soles are less than 6 inches and don't have live goldfish swimming around inside, my white fur coat and wide brimmed trilby are strictly for indoor use only and mah bitches only come out when da trick be holdin' foldin'!

Damn! I sound like ISH!!!!



Knight

-- Tue May 18, 2010 10:08 pm --

benwj wrote:The demand in Dubai is different to demand in Dublin for example.
Hookers are in Dubai to provide a service to muslim men who have no other option (and of course a few non-muslim desperados, that we are normally accustomed to in places such as Bangkok). Yes, they know that is it wrong (just as devout Catholics know that s.ex before marriage with their girlfriend is wrong), but having a girlfriend is not an option for the young muslim men. Having a girlfriend requires emotional involvement, and it cannot be hidden behind closed doors. Being with a girlfriend also involves sinning continuously, whilst an hour with a hooker is a relatively a short sin… easier to dismiss.
It is relatively easy to resist the temptations of pork and alcohol (well not for me, but I am sure that most devout muslims do).
But for a young 19yo stud with testosterone coursing through his veins, who thinks that he’s gods’s gift to women…what are they gonna do? go to the mosque and pray that the urges will disappear??
As I said, there are not many men who have that level of conviction shafique, maybe a few priests, but look what they need to turn to instead!
There is a very blasé attitude to prostitution in Dubai and it is not enforced because there is not only a demand, but there is a need for it.
I agree that s.ex before marriage, even with a girlfriend, is not ideal, but I am also realistic and understand that it is very common, including in the muslim community.
The difference is that I have the option/"hassle of dating and risking rejection”. Muslim men don't have this luxury.
It may also be relevant to note that the hookers in Dubai are not muslim themselves, which raises a few questions on justification.
Is it not as bad to have s.ex with a non-muslim and blame them for tempting you?
Is it possible to have s.ex with a non-muslim woman but respect muslim women?

Nice and concisely put and well observed!

Round of applause.



Knight

benwj wrote:I never mentioned cheating on your wife but, I think that we can both agree that (apart from 2nd, 3rd and 4th 'wife') this is unacceptable, no matter who it is with… so how about we stick with the hooker vs girlfriend, pre-marital s.ex comparison.

Your ‘lower estimation of women’ theory seems rational, and I would add that prostitution treats women as material items with no feelings.

Yes, I'd agree with that. (We'll gloss over the fact that marrying a 2nd wife is not exactly an 'easy option' if one just wants to sleep around - and will cost much more than a mistress or hookers... in more ways than one! )

Well, to be fair - I was actually puzzled about your logic - but in the context of marriages and no extra-marital s.ex rather than whether fornication for money or fornication for dinner/date/non-commital relationship. But hey, let's explore your logic in this new set of parameters (for me).

I have to say, I think I'd probably end up agreeing with you - if society says it is ok to fornicate, then I guess it would be better to fornicate in relationships that were based on mutual acceptance of each other as humans rather than as a financial transaction.

I'd smile and then suggest that if we followed the logic, then the relationships which generated the greatest 'mutual respect' would be the monogamous (even if serial monogamous) i.e. 'exclusive' relationships that were public (i.e. didn't take place only in secret). I.e. they'd be marriages in all but name.

We'd agree that paying for s.ex will lead to less respect for women. I'd argue that one-night stands would be effectively the same as prostitution - only the manner of the fee would be different.


But, hey let's see what your argument/logic is:

benwj wrote:However, to answer your question: Yes, imo a “‘free’” one with your girlfriend is the better of 2 evils.

Yes. Agreed.

benwj wrote:

shafique wrote:Let me put it another way, are you saying that it is the fornication (buying s.ex with prostitutes) that leads to the disrespect of women - i.e. therefore it is only the Muslims who break the laws of Islam and go with prossies who open themselves up to this influence?

It’s a case of ‘which came first?’
Dis-respect of women is a pre-requisit to use a hooker and I can therefore assume that it leads to dis-respect of women.

Hmm. I think you're perhaps over-thinking this.

Guys get horny. Guys want to get laid. Guys like to take the easy option.

benwj wrote:But there you go again with the ‘only’ assumption.
Lets face it, not many men (including muslims) have your conviction shafique, and there is a reason why there are so many hookers in Dubai, despite it being a, muslim country… run by devout muslims.
I’ll enlighten you later.

Supply and demand, and hypocrisy.

benwj wrote:

shafique wrote:Well, Muslims would have the additonal guilt that they are sinning to boot. However, your theory is that this going with prossies leads to disrespect of women in general (unless I'm mistaken)

No, you are not mistaken.

Don’t you agree that having s.ex with a prostitute is disrespectful to women? Its just that you are continually questioning this, and I would have thought that the general consensus was that having s.ex with a prostitute is not something to be proud of, religious reasons aside.

I agree with you - but I'd argue that you're not taking your logic far enough out. The reasons why prostitution is bad will explain why s.ex within marriage (a committed relationship) is the best way to develop and maintain respect for women.

I think you're just labelling what I would call a 'common law wife' - i.e. a marriage in all but paper certificate - as a your 'girlfriend', and then arguing that this relationship when compared to going with hookers gives you more respect for women.

You seem to be arguing that Muslim men who are forced by society to wait for marriage will sleep around with prossies, before getting married and will therefore view women as objects because before they are willing to settle down, they see women as only objects of pleasure.

I agree with this. The operational thing will be 'men who choose to sleep around'.

However, I see no difference between this behaviour and men who choose to have serial girlfriends who he has no intention of marrying. Ultimately he's testing the field out and getting his s.ex for free rather than paying for it. (I'd argue he's still paying for it, and the woman is also paying for it too - emotionally as well as in other ways).

... Look, hookers are there because there is a demand. Men who want to have s.ex outside of marriage will either look for girlfriends (whom they can persuade to sleep with them, but with no long term committment, in return for some spending and some play-acting as temporary husband) or just be honest and pay for the s.ex with no strings at all (unless you pay extra).

Sure -men will always want to have s.ex - that is human nature and biology. Women have always been there and spotted a money-making opportunity.

Society has to decide what the limits are and what is acceptable - legally, culturally, religiously etc.

My theoretical outlook is that society is better off if s.ex is limited to marriages and fornication is strenuously warned against - it should come with a health warning 'may cause emotional and physical damage, as well as harming society as a whole'. (But that's me as an older guy speaking)

benwj wrote:

shafique wrote:However, the point I wanted clarification of was your theory about the link between prossies in a society and men disrespecting women, and specifically that just dating rather than paying for s.ex would lead to men respecting women more!

Clarification:
Is it possible to have s.ex with a prostitute and respect women. No
Is it possible to have s.ex with your girlfriend and respect women. Yes… of course not always, but I would hope so.

And I'd argue that the logical conclusion of your argument is that you'd maximise the respect for women if you only slept with women who you were willing to commit the rest of your life to (and whether you want to call this marriage or a long term relationship, doesn't matter).


See - we agree!

Cheers,
Shafique