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ALEX BRUMMER: Is Bernard Madoff's £33billion fraud the death knell for the hedge fund?Last updated at 1:33 PM on 16th December 2008

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The £33billion fraud by Bernard Madoff could spell the end for the most controversial
investment vehicles of recent years: hedge funds.

His scam, nothing more than a huge pyramid selling scheme, highlights the dangers of the unregulated hedge fund business.

He managed

Madoff's £33billion fraud the death knell for the hedge fund?Last updated at 1:33 PM on 16th December 2008

Comments (11) Add to My Stories
The £33billion fraud by Bernard Madoff could spell the end for the most controversial
investment vehicles of recent years: hedge funds.

His scam, nothing more than a huge pyramid selling scheme, highlights the dangers of the unregulated hedge fund business.

He managed to convince some of the most highly-regarded banks, financiers, investment trusts, entrepreneurs and charities that over time he could produce better and steadier returns than most other fund managers.
It's the end of Bernard Madoff's legacy - but is it the end of hedge funds as well?
The key to his fraud was simple: he used the money given to him by new investors to pay the returns promised to the rest.

More...British taxpayers could foot the bill as our firms taken for £3.5bn ride in world's biggest fraud
PHILIP DELVES BROUGHTON: The conman who duped the world: The rise and fall of Wall Street legend Bernie Madoff
EDWARD HEATHCOAT AMORY: Why joining the euro will make things worse not better
MAIL COMMENT: A day of reckoning for immoral bankers

What makes the Madoff case particularly startling is the lack of curiosity shown by investors such as Nicola Horlick’s Bramdean; HSBC (the best survivor of the credit crunch); the Spanish bank Santander, owner of Abbey (which has bought up several of our high street lenders) and the Royal Bank of Scotland.

The New York home of Madoff's private investment group
A hedge fund is a private investment group open to a limited number of very wealthy investors. It is allowed to undertake a wider and more aggressive range of activities than other firms including shares, dealing in debt, commodities and so on.
Because Madoff had a reputation as a relatively conservative investor, nobody bothered to ask how their money was being invested. It was taken on trust.

His hedge fund was part of an unregulated industry which grew by leaps and bounds in the credit-fuelled atmosphere of the last few years. In 2005 some $1,000billion was invested in thousands of hedge funds which had set themselves up in London, New York and in offshore financial centres. By the peak of the credit boom in 2007 this sum had doubled.

Pension funds, investment trusts and insurance companies around the world all wanted a bit of the action and the wonderful returns which had been enjoyed only by rich private and family investors. But these highly-regulated institutions were placing the money of ordinary investors in a marketplace where the law of the jungle operated.
Hedge funds were at the forefront of the short selling of Britain’s banks this year.

Short selling is where the hedge funds borrow shares from major holders with the promise to return the same number of shares to them at a later, specified date.
The speculators sell the shares immediately at the prevailing price on the stock market. The goal then is to drive the price down, buy the shares back at the lower price and return them to the original holder having pocketed the difference.
More from Alex Brummer... ALEX BRUMMER: Borrowing the Swedish model 20/02/09 ALEX BRUMMER: Like John Sergeant, we are dancing on the edge of disaster 19/02/09 ALEX BRUMMER COMMENT: A new dawn for the Old Lady 18/02/09 ALEX BRUMMER COMMENT: Sounding the bonus retreat 17/02/09 ALEX BRUMMER COMMENT: Poison chalice of nationalisation 16/02/09 MONDAY VIEW: Time for extraordinary solutions 15/02/09 ALEX BRUMMER: Darling was on the happy pills when he told us the economy would recover this year 11/02/09 ALEX BRUMMER: Bankers' feet held to the fire 11/02/09 ALEX BRUMMER: Public rage, weak ministers and bankers in denial over a criminally irresponsible bonus system 10/02/09 VIEW FULL ARCHIVE The practice brought chaos to the markets and was regarded as so destabilising that it was banned by the Financial Services Authority.

By sharing market intelligence and acting together, hedge funds can drive the share prices of quoted companies up and down at will for short-term gain rather than long-term investment.

It was their abhorrent behaviour and manipulation of share prices which led to several of Britain’s biggest companies – including BAA, ICI and Pilkington – being sold to overseas buyers.

This year has been the most destructive in world financial markets since before the First World War. But no one guessed that amid the detritus of the sub-prime mortgages and the banking system there lurked the greatest fraud of all time.

If this were to mean the end of hedge funds, few ordinary consumers would mourn the passing of these havens for the greedy investor. The trouble is that an already precariously-weak financial system can ill afford yet another shock so hard on the heels of those it already has suffered.

To put $50 BILLION DOLLARS in perspective, I checked my 2003 version of The Economist "World in Figures" [ I don't have a later copy....good book!!]

Under "Current Account : Largest surpluses , these are the top countries :-
[1] Japan $116.88 billion dollars ;[2] Russia 46.3 billion dollars ; [3] Switzerland 32.5 billion dollars ;[4] Norway 22.98 billion [5] Singapore 21.8 billion ; [6] China 20.5 billion ; [7] France 20.4 billion ; [8] Canada 18 billion ;[9] Kuwait 14.8 billion ; [10] Saudi Arabia 14.3 billion ; [11] Venezuela 13.1 billion ; [12] Iran 12.6 billion ;[13] Netherlands 12.3 billion ; [14] Belgium 11.8 billion dollars ; [15] South Korea 11.4 billion ; [16] Thailand 9.3 billion ; .........then later [26] Qatar 5.4 billion dollars ;[27] Oman 3.3 billion [28] Denmark 2.5 billion.


Then Current account : Largest DEFICITS :-

[1] USA 444.7 BILLION DOLLARS deficit ; [2] UK 25.6 billion dollars deficit; ;[3] Brazil 24.6 billion deficit ; [4] Germany 18.7 billion ;[5] Mexico 18.1 billion ;[6] Spain 17.2 billion ; [7] Australia 15.3 billion deficit.

Now , the book is 2003. Those figures were collated in 2002, so the figures are for year ended Dec 31st 2000.

It may surprise some to see which countries were managing current account surpluses and which had deficits. The USA was massively in the red.

But this also puts Bernard Madoff's deficit in perspective. It is $50 BILLION DOLLARS for one man's company!!
The SURPLUS for Russia , a huge country which was SECOND INTERNATIONALLY for surpluses , was only $46 billion dollars
surplus.
The UK had the second largest deficit, at minus 25.6 billion dollars. That is bad enough, but Madoff is said to have $50 BILLION DOLLARS fraudulent debt . TWICE THE UK!
I say all this to put it in perspective. Madoff and Stanford's fraudulent activities will have GLOBAL repercussions......and how many MORE MADOFFS and STANFORDS ARE THERE??

Before this financial crisis the US of A, soon to be the us of a , had a national debt of 9 trillion dollars and together with medicare and medi-aid liabilities they have/had a total debt burden of 53 Trillion dollars to be serviced by the next generation of young Americans...

As for the Netherlands: We just pumped in 90 billion euro's into our economy mostly into bank bailouts. For 2009 they expect a deficit in the balance sheet of 40 billion euro's merely due to decrease in income taxes and loss in corporate trade taxes...

And thats based on 3.x percent of negative growth for the coming year. Compare that to other nations in the world. I'm glad we have all of this wealth built up over the last decades. We don't feel the threat in our wallets yet...(knock on wood...)

brgds

As you stated: His hedge fund was part of an unregulated industry which grew by leaps and bounds

The only person I feel bad for that I have read about is the man who invested his entire savings - $700,000 - and lost it all. As for all the over the top wealthy who weren't satisfied with the millions they had and wanted more, more, more - they took a gamble and lost. Trust me, it didn't leave any of them having to take a job for $10 per hour. The fact that the hedge fund was part of an unregulated industry left them open to risk and no protection.

Only a fool and his money are soon parted.

What a bunch of fools. They are now joined by the Stanford fools.

Umm Bora, you are right to an extent... but don't get ahead of yourself.

M'off was THE guy for investing. You were considered to be in "elite society" if you had investments with him. His firm picked and chose who they would accept money from. There was hardly a shortage of people wanting to invest. There was no REAL information given to them, even to his own employees. He was the only guy who knew everything.
He promised 10% returns for years on end. And after delivering them for years on end... guess what? People believed it!

Now, I firmly believe that you should NEVER put all your eggs in one basket... But a lot of people did just that after getting huge returns over a LONG time... it just didnt seem that risky to them.

In theory, if the economy didnt collapse, and people didnt start pulling out their money, he would not have been exposed, yet...

I have heard first hand a few horror stories. Friends parents having to head back to work at the age of 50+. Children having their trust funds/college funds wiped clean. All at the hands of ONE GUY.

For you to call them a bunch of fools is ridiculous.

There is nothing Foolish about being CHEATED. Just because they were rich to begin with means nothing.

Bora Bora wrote:As you stated: His hedge fund was part of an unregulated industry which grew by leaps and bounds

The only person I feel bad for that I have read about is the man who invested his entire savings - $700,000 - and lost it all. As for all the over the top wealthy who weren't satisfied with the millions they had and wanted more, more, more - they took a gamble and lost. Trust me, it didn't leave any of them having to take a job for $10 per hour. The fact that the hedge fund was part of an unregulated industry left them open to risk and no protection.

Only a fool and his money are soon parted.

What a bunch of fools. They are now joined by the Stanford fools.

Dresden is right.

Go back to your cave Kitty. Finance is not your territory, but Bora Bora izzz

RobbyG wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:As you stated: His hedge fund was part of an unregulated industry which grew by leaps and bounds

The only person I feel bad for that I have read about is the man who invested his entire savings - $700,000 - and lost it all. As for all the over the top wealthy who weren't satisfied with the millions they had and wanted more, more, more - they took a gamble and lost. Trust me, it didn't leave any of them having to take a job for $10 per hour. The fact that the hedge fund was part of an unregulated industry left them open to risk and no protection.

Only a fool and his money are soon parted.

What a bunch of fools. They are now joined by the Stanford fools.

Dresden is right.

Go back to your cave Kitty. Finance is not your territory, but Bora Bora izzz

OK Robby and you are the expert on just about everything. NOT!!

Were you first on line for the free meal?

dresden wrote:Umm Bora, you are right to an extent... but don't get ahead of yourself.

M'off was THE guy for investing. You were considered to be in "elite society" if you had investments with him. His firm picked and chose who they would accept money from. There was hardly a shortage of people wanting to invest. There was no REAL information given to them, even to his own employees. He was the only guy who knew everything.
He promised 10% returns for years on end. And after delivering them for years on end... guess what? People believed it!

Now, I firmly believe that you should NEVER put all your eggs in one basket... But a lot of people did just that after getting huge returns over a LONG time... it just didnt seem that risky to them.

In theory, if the economy didnt collapse, and people didnt start pulling out their money, he would not have been exposed, yet...

I have heard first hand a few horror stories. Friends parents having to head back to work at the age of 50+. Children having their trust funds/college funds wiped clean. All at the hands of ONE GUY.

For you to call them a bunch of fools is ridiculous.

There is nothing Foolish about being CHEATED. Just because they were rich to begin with means nothing.

What was Foolish was investing in something blindly. How can you go into something so bold without having info, other than someone telling you what a great return you will get? Then again, I am sure that quite a few went into it based on what they were told by their "investment advisor". His scam ran for years. Having said that, he obviously was pretty good at juggling.

Bora Bora wrote:

RobbyG wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:As you stated: His hedge fund was part of an unregulated industry which grew by leaps and bounds

The only person I feel bad for that I have read about is the man who invested his entire savings - $700,000 - and lost it all. As for all the over the top wealthy who weren't satisfied with the millions they had and wanted more, more, more - they took a gamble and lost. Trust me, it didn't leave any of them having to take a job for $10 per hour. The fact that the hedge fund was part of an unregulated industry left them open to risk and no protection.

Only a fool and his money are soon parted.

What a bunch of fools. They are now joined by the Stanford fools.

Dresden is right.

Go back to your cave Kitty. Finance is not your territory, but Bora Bora izzz

OK Robby and you are the expert on just about everything. NOT!!

Were you first on line for the free meal?

Keep it on topic OK
Otherwise I have to clobber your A$$ for things that have nothing to do with your cave situation at Bora Bora.

What's else in the name?

Bora Bora wrote:
What was Foolish was investing in something blindly. How can you go into something so bold without having info, other than someone telling you what a great return you will get? Then again, I am sure that quite a few went into it based on what they were told by their "investment advisor". His scam ran for years. Having said that, he obviously was pretty good at juggling.

Robby, Lets have a civil discussion.

Bora, I see what you are getting at, but try to understand the other side of the picture.

A little analogy shall we....? Humor me...

Lets say you're well to do and decide to buy a nice property in Dubai to live in and retire. (Lets just assume that you do... dont retort to a "I would never do that" reply).

So your sitting on your nice villa, and it keeps appreciating... You are living it up because you're a part of "high society" and you're well respected by the people around you. The house is paid off, and you really see no reason to work anymore so your relaxed and getting old. Right?

WRONG SUCKER!

Tomorrow the Government tells you to F'off because the company who developed your property did not do so lawfully (or insert some excuse here).... So your sh!T out of Luck. You dont have a house to live in.... Your friends are not "friends" anymore... Your no longer part of "high society" The Government doesnt give a Flying FEKK, they just want to catch the crook who developed the property --> And guess what? He's chillin in his Multi Million Dollar NY Penthouse and trying to smuggle out money through his wife....

So here you are going from a nice relaxed live to having to START ALL OVER AGAIN.

LETS SEE HOW YOU FEEL?

Think twice about how these people feel. If that happened to me, I would stalk the MF'er and cut off his balls, feed it to him, Then chop off his limbs, cook them and sit there and eat it in front of his face. With a side of red wine. I think they are being pretty civil. Yes I feel sorry for them.

Dresden,

Did that 'analogy' really happened to you in the way you described it>?
What action can/did you take to prove you complied to all contractual agreements?

This is wrong D.

Dresden,
I agree with you 100 per cent. Madoff was supposedly the ELITE of investors used by the rich and famous. It was seen as a PRIVILEGE to be on his books. I can almost see the mega-rich in their cocktail parties bragging about the fact that Madoff was a "financial genius" earning them huge returns as they rubbed financial shoulders with other fabulously rich people and celebrities. Oh how they laughed!! Life was so good !! Money was no problem !!!

The Madoff scandal must have shaken GOVERMENTS to the core.......apart from the mega-rich. As you say "NEVER put all your eggs in one basket" but people who think they are one of the CHOSEN FEW ,being accepted by Madoff, would be oblivious to such thoughts.
I can imagine MANY people putting at least 75 per cent of their wealth in his care. The more you would have put, the better the financial returns percentage-wise, probably.
With $50 BILLION DOLLARS involved, I should think that a whole load of people have lost everything.
Imagine ! $50 BILLION is 50,000 people losing a million dollars each....and a million dollars is a fortune!!
50,000 people is a whole LOAD of people!

A lot of people might be good at EARNING money , once they are famous film stars,singers etc.....but they are often USELESS at managing it.......so they trust the Madoffs .......and Stanfords....of this world!!

Here is a thought! What if you did NOT believe in putting all your money in the Madoff basket.....and you put the rest with Stanford???? OOPS!!

Robby G & Redkite
The government has not come forth and "protected" any of the investors. Hell, HSBC has lost 1 Billion with him... yes 1 Billion. Your investments are not covered by the government... It would hardly be an investment if it was covered now would it? According to reports, there is only about $300 million in the actual accounts of the company... That leaves a whole lot of people with nothing.

None of this has happened to me personally, but my family and I do know people who have been affected. Sitting over dinner at their "functions", we used to hear them brag about how much money Madoff is earning them and that they think they might spend a couple months in the south of France, or maybe Marbella, or Monaco.. or maybe all of them... No one was worried. Madoff was "The man". If you were with him, you could'nt lose. It was like he was the king of the hill, and if he chose YOU to be part of HIS company, you were royalty too... peasants are the people who are not "worthy".

Understand this: These people were rich, all of them. They were used to a lavish lifestyle. They didnt know what Zara, H&M, or a Honda felt like. Neither did their friends or neighbours. When they hit rock bottom, it was like their worlds collapsed. You can complain about the fact that they are rich snobs, yadda yadda and that they still have a bit of money left, but understand that they have hit ROCK BOTTOM to them. The dinner invitations from friends stopped, the mocking began... the "not worthy of madoff" are snickering over in the corner... their entire world falls apart. I give MAJOR RESPECT to the ones who pick themselves up and start life again... at the age of 50. It takes SERIOUS BALLS.

If you hung out with people in the same caliber as you, drove similar cars, lived in similar houses and one day it came crashing down on you, and on top of that no one wants to know you, let alone help you... You'd understand too.

The government is only concerned about Getting Madoff. It will get them the most good publicity. Get the bastard that did all this... Nevermind the lives that are ruined.

Madoff is a major showoff as well. A few months before he was arrested, he ordered a $50 Million dollar jet in custom colors from Brazil, and bragged about someone offering him more money since he was higher up on the list than them...

Dont forget that one does not get to his level without Being very well Politically connected .

Explain to me how someone who robs someone else can go to jail, but he robs people of 50 Billion and is allowed to stay in his $6 Million NY Penthouse?

Now here's the kicker.... READ THIS REPORT ON MADOFF FILED IN 2005. This report is a cover of another report Filed against Madoff in 1999!
http://static.reuters.com/resources/med ... mo_SEC.pdf

HE WAS OUTED IN 1999, yet NO ONE did anything about it.

The kicker in the ass was that his own sons turned him in. They probably thought he was going to far and wanted to save their own skins.

I totally agree with you. Guys like Madoff needs to be raped off their clothes. Raped is the intentional word.

The most unrightuous thing in America is money. If you have lots of it, even when you scammed the whole world like Madoff, you still can pay a fine and wait it out in your million dollar appartment. Its sick.

Politically well connected thats for sure.

A few days ago an investigation in Madoff firm showed that all three floors were interconnected. No evidence was found of his pyramid business being run separately from his initial business company.
So this partly evidence that his sons knew of the scam, or had significant inside information about its existance.
Handing over dad was merely a way to cover up their own reputations as daddy Madoff was standing naked when the tide went out...

dresden wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:
What was Foolish was investing in something blindly. How can you go into something so bold without having info, other than someone telling you what a great return you will get? Then again, I am sure that quite a few went into it based on what they were told by their "investment advisor". His scam ran for years. Having said that, he obviously was pretty good at juggling.

Robby, Lets have a civil discussion.

Bora, I see what you are getting at, but try to understand the other side of the picture.

A little analogy shall we....? Humor me...

Lets say you're well to do and decide to buy a nice property in Dubai to live in and retire. (Lets just assume that you do... dont retort to a "I would never do that" reply).

So your sitting on your nice villa, and it keeps appreciating... You are living it up because you're a part of "high society" and you're well respected by the people around you. The house is paid off, and you really see no reason to work anymore so your relaxed and getting old. Right?

WRONG SUCKER!

Tomorrow the Government tells you to F'off because the company who developed your property did not do so lawfully (or insert some excuse here).... So your sh!T out of Luck. You dont have a house to live in.... Your friends are not "friends" anymore... Your no longer part of "high society" The Government doesnt give a Flying FEKK, they just want to catch the crook who developed the property --> And guess what? He's chillin in his Multi Million Dollar NY Penthouse and trying to smuggle out money through his wife....

So here you are going from a nice relaxed live to having to START ALL OVER AGAIN.

LETS SEE HOW YOU FEEL?

Think twice about how these people feel. If that happened to me, I would stalk the MF'er and cut off his balls, feed it to him, Then chop off his limbs, cook them and sit there and eat it in front of his face. With a side of red wine. I think they are being pretty civil. Yes I feel sorry for them.

Dres, point taken. Your Dubai analogy is different from the Madoff scam. Been in Dubai 12 years and have seen people go from up to down. Also was very wary of investing here. I always had it in the back of my mind that yes one day someone could wake up and say "you have 48 hours to leave this country", although unlikely, but possible. Know people who have invested serious money in the housing market and weeping over the fact that they can't make the mortage payments on the 10 villas they purchased. I thought long and hard about purchasing a property in Dubai. Aside from the up-and-out possibility, the fact that there was no protection to buyers I thought it too risky. Dubai is what, 38 years old and so much of it is "first time". It's like an experiment, who gets it right the first time or the second time? Learning from the mistakes from the first attempt allows the second attempt to get closer to the end result.

The only feeling I have for the Madoff victims is apathy as opposed to empathy. I guess I have seen so much that I have become cyncial where so many things are concerned because I just don't understand how people can be so gullible.

If I had been a Madoff victim I wouldn't be able to join you for dinner seeing as how there are no vegetables on the menu, but I will bring a bottle of vino!

Have to go now, just got an e-mail from Nigeria and it seems that I stand to inherit quite a bit of money. This is amazing because when I saw my fortune teller last nite she said that I would be coming into money.

Bora Bora,
Well Well! You have not had a letter from Reverend Obadiah Jones of Lagos telling you that he wants to give you $15 million dollars because he has no other relatives since they were all wiped out with machetes ?
Rev Obadiah Jones MUST be genuine because he believes in God........Praise the Lord!....and goes to church 3 times every Sunday...Halleluljah!!

By the way, how MUCH has the average Dubai property fallen in value since January 1st 2006 ?? Any figures??

RedKite wrote:Bora Bora,
Well Well! You have not had a letter from Reverend Obadiah Jones of Lagos telling you that he wants to give you $15 million dollars because he has no other relatives since they were all wiped out with machetes ?
Rev Obadiah Jones MUST be genuine because he believes in God........Praise the Lord!....and goes to church 3 times every Sunday...Halleluljah!!

By the way, how MUCH has the average Dubai property fallen in value since January 1st 2006 ?? Any figures??

I guess you got that letter.

I used to get them every day. They all claimed to believe in God and they all wanted me to share $15 million or $50 million. I reckon they were all written by fellas whose real names were Madoff or Stanford!!!

Bora, I guess you completely missed the point of my post (perhaps I should have explained it better).

To briefly reiterate, the people had no idea what was going on with Madoff; all they knew is that the money was coming in year after year after year ad nauseum. Eventually, you just rely on the fact that the outcome will not change (or so you think) and live happily.
Yes, you can call this negligence as well. File it under "Ignorance is bliss".

As you said yourself (regarding my Dubai property analogy), there is no protection; as is the same with investing.
Perhaps I have not seen as much as you, which has not made me cynical... yet.

I still feel bad for them, but I wouldn't donate to a "Save the Madoff victims fund" either...


On another note, My long lost Great Grandfather's bother's wife's sister's cousin's grand sons best friend has just contacted me though email. Looks like I inherited a cool billion. I'm expecting the money in my bank account any second now before I blow this popsicle joint...

dresden wrote:Bora, I guess you completely missed the point of my post (perhaps I should have explained it better).

To briefly reiterate, the people had no idea what was going on with Madoff; all they knew is that the money was coming in year after year after year ad nauseum. Eventually, you just rely on the fact that the outcome will not change (or so you think) and live happily.
Yes, you can call this negligence as well. File it under "Ignorance is bliss".

You confirmed what I was saying. How do you invest money when you know nothing about the company, but do so on "word of mouth"? Isn't that investing blindly? The "elite" investors probably didn't have to work hard all their lives to earn their fortunes and probably felt so special to be invited to invest that they didn't need to look hard and close as to what they were getting into. I guess I'm just looking at it from the view point of someone who isn't rich and if I had saved a considerable amount of money and were looking to make an investment, I would first do my homework.

Sure !! Times were good .......and THE LIVING WAS EASY!!
Rich people leave everything to "experts" and they thought that Madoff was a REAL, VERY SPECIAL expert. They were making money.....WITHOUT WORKING...so they trusted him!!

But, I have to admit , even though I kept saying that UK property was over-valued, ever since 2002 , I never dreamt that things were going to get this bad. Even top banks and financial houses are in big trouble. Who saw all THAT coming?? Not even Government financial experts and bankers themselves!!
Look at the mess so far.......AIG; Lehmann Bros; RBS ; HBOS; American Banks ; NORTHERN ROCK , MADOFF ; STANFORD .......all involving many BILLIONS !! Where will this all end??? The knock-on effect is closing huge companies. Thousands are being laid off.
FTSE and the DOW are dropping to HALF what they were last year [the FTSE is 3500 and was 6500 in 2008 ]

This started with ENRON really. It proved that no-one was really watching how big business made money. I have shares. I should have sold EVERYTHING in 2007.

A friend of mine was told very clearly ,in SPRING 2008 .....BY A WALL STREET MAN WHOM HE KNEW .........." SELL EVERYTHING !! " I did not take heed, nor did my friend. So our investments in shares and unit trusts have taken a big hit. They will take years to recover. We are not alone. MILLIONS are in the same boat! We get too blase with savings , I'm afraid. We buy them and forget them. BIG mistake!! You get away with it in a bull market........but , not now!!